Do bluffs work??

[amirm]

I need to take you to the shooting range near your store. You can bring Bruce to record some serious sounds.

zz.

Hey, there is an idea!

 

[RBFC]

That's some serious dynamic "range"!

Lee

 

[amirm]

They used to use gun shots (and canons) to measure impulse response of a room!

 

[Orb]

Just curious,
is the spring loaded baton/blackjack legal to use at home in most states?
Can be an incredibly good self defense weapon, although also incredibly dangerous.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Gregadd]

911 or a panic are the best options. It is ironic that had a nanny cam but no protection against the general public.

 

[Gregadd]

Just curious,
is the spring loaded baton/blackjack legal to use at home in most states?
Can be an incredibly good self defense weapon, although also incredibly dangerous.

Cheers
Orb

Laws vary from state to state. An otherwise illegal weapon can legally be used in self defense.Check with local police department or DA Office before purchasing any weapon.

 

[es347]

Presentation of a weapon as a defensive threat is controversial. I personally don't recommend this approach, as it has two possible outcomes. First, the bluff works and the confrontation ends as the suspect runs away. Second, the threat of force by you immediately escalates the situation so that the bad guy feels he must use superior force to survive and escape. I'm a big fan of the "if you're gonna pull that weapon, you better be prepared to use it" philosophy. The element of surprise and immediate " violence of action " cannot be emphasized enough for effective self-defense.

Lee

..a big AMEN to that one...well done Lee! My wife and I both have carry permits (IN) and last week I went thru handgun training...3 hrs. classroom and 3 hrs. on the range. My wife will go thru the training next Spring. Anyone who gets their carry permit and buys a handgun is foolish if they don't get properly trained on how to handle a firearm. There's another course "Personal Protection in the Home" that we intend to take this winter...all classroom. I won't get political here but suffice it to say that arming yourself, again with the proper training, is something everyone should at least consider this day and age..

 

[still-one]

You have to get too close with a baseball bat and he could grab it from you and beat you with it.

If you were to use a bat, a good swing sideways (so he can't easily see it coming) across the skull would be good, but it is hard to get a good swing in so close to a doorway.

An unloaded gun doesn't work, so it is of no value.

If I had a gun, I would shoot first, ask questions later and have him be unable to ever refute my story.

Be careful with that position. Just a few weeks ago in a Detroit suburb a man was wakened by someone knocking/making a noise at his front door at around 3:30am. He said he was frightened for his safety and he shot someone thru the screen/glass door. Initially he was not arrested but after further investigation it turns out that the person he shot had been in a semi serious car accident and had walked a ways to the house. She was unarmed, alcohol was involved not sure about drugs . No signs of attempted forced entry. The autopsy came back that she was shot thru a closed door (not exactly sure what type). It will end up in the courts to determine whether he had any reason to fear for his safety.

Under a 2006 Michigan self-defense law, a homeowner has the right to use force during a break-in. Otherwise, a person must show that his or her life was in danger.

 

[zztop7]

Hey, there is an idea!

Hi Amir,

Just let me know when you want to go to the range. You must bring Ear Protection.

zz.

P.S. Private message sent.

 

[zztop7]

Be careful with that position. Just a few weeks ago in a Detroit suburb a man was wakened by someone knocking/making a noise at his front door at around 3:30am. He said he was frightened for his safety and he shot someone thru the screen/glass door. Initially he was not arrested but after further investigation it turns out that the person he shot had been in a semi serious car accident and had walked a ways to the house. She was unarmed, alcohol was involved not sure about drugs . No signs of attempted forced entry. The autopsy came back that she was shot thru a closed door (not exactly sure what type). It will end up in the courts to determine whether he had any reason to fear for his safety.

Under a 2006 Michigan self-defense law, a homeowner has the right to use force during a break-in. Otherwise, a person must show that his or her life was in danger.

I am not going to mince words here.
That homeowner was just plain stupid.
I do not care if that person was standing outside with an RPG.
The ?criminal? must BREAK into the house & ENTER - B&E.
I lived in New England, Texas [great laws], and now Washington State.
In Washington State it is very helpful if you can prove the ?criminal? was attempting deadly force inside your house.

zz.

P.S. RPG = rocket propelled grenade

 

[GaryProtein]

Be careful with that position. Just a few weeks ago in a Detroit suburb a man was wakened by someone knocking/making a noise at his front door at around 3:30am. He said he was frightened for his safety and he shot someone thru the screen/glass door. Initially he was not arrested but after further investigation it turns out that the person he shot had been in a semi serious car accident and had walked a ways to the house. She was unarmed, alcohol was involved not sure about drugs . No signs of attempted forced entry. The autopsy came back that she was shot thru a closed door (not exactly sure what type). It will end up in the courts to determine whether he had any reason to fear for his safety.

Under a 2006 Michigan self-defense law, a homeowner has the right to use force during a break-in. Otherwise, a person must show that his or her life was in danger.

I agree with you on that one. If the person was on the other side of a closed door, I would not shoot. I would see who was there with an intercom. I would be very leery about opening the door at all since crooks have been good at disguises. I know people who have been robbed in their house at gunpoint. As a child I can remember my parents telling me not to open the door for anyone you don't know in that sort of instance--just call the police for assistance, and today that is still what I would do. Unless I personally saw the accident, I wouldn't open the door for someone who said they were in an accident a block or two from my house. Why would they walk so far rather than picking a closer house to call for help?

 

[mep]

I agree with you on that one. If the person was on the other side of a closed door, I would not shoot. I would see who was there with an intercom. I would be very leery about opening the door at all since crooks have been good at disguises. I know people who have been robbed in their house at gunpoint. As a child I can remember my parents telling me not to open the door for anyone you don't know in that sort of instance--just call the police for assistance, and today that is still what I would do. Unless I personally saw the accident, I wouldn't open the door for someone who said they were in an accident a block or two from my house. Why would they walk so far rather than picking a closer house to call for help?

There is more to that story that hasn't come out yet. From the time the accident occurred until she was banging on the guy's door a significant time elapse had taken place. I can understand why the homeowner was scared, but I don't think it justified him shooting her in the face with a shotgun though.

 

[rockitman]

It also depends on what state you are in. In New York, if someone breaks in or makes an invasion, you can shoot to kill w/o any questions. In some state's you may have to demonstrate you tried to flee or felt that your life is in danger.

 

[zztop7]

TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT
SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN

Please do not forget to post appropriate signs.

zz.

 

[GaryProtein]

There is more to that story that hasn't come out yet. From the time the accident occurred until she was banging on the guy's door a significant time elapse had taken place. I can understand why the homeowner was scared, but I don't think it justified him shooting her in the face with a shotgun though.

I don't think he was right either. He should have just called the police.

TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT
SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN

Please do not forget to post appropriate signs. zz.

I have long fantasized about having a heat seeking, servo-driven machine gun atop a revolving turret that fired at any warm moving object on the property.

Don't get over-excited guys, it's just a fantasy and illegal to discharge firearms outdoors on residential property in my county.

 

[mep]

It also depends on what state you are in. In New York, if someone breaks in or makes an invasion, you can shoot to kill w/o any questions. In some state's you may have to demonstrate you tried to flee or felt that your life is in danger.

Yeah, but those are the pansy states. If you live in Texas you are allowed to shoot people who break into your nextdoor neighbor's house.

 

[rrr]

To address Amir's question more succinctly, I believe there are two distinct ways to handle the "bad guy at the door". For purposes of this immediate post, we'll assume that he has NOT committed forcible entry into your home (yet).

1. Count on your exterior fortifications and cell phone communications to slow his entry (if a forcible entry is being attempted) while summoning police assistance. Consider escape routes for your family from the anticipated points of entry in your home. Consider the "safe room" concept, as far as you might be willing to take it.

2. Have some type of deadly force weapon available and have some training in how to use it effectively. Apply your training to your home environment, so that you may understand the amount of space, etc. in which you might engage a hostile subject. Consider what you would instruct your family to do (and where to go, etc.) if you were to confront an intruder in this manner. A good flashlight is an excellent tool, since many of these scenarios play out in low-light environments. There are convenient flashlights that have dedicated mounting systems to attach to your firearm, or you should practice with single-handed use of your flashlight while wielding the baseball bat, etc. with the other hand. THINK about what would actually happen and what you would be required to do! Also, have a basic understanding of the "castle doctrine" laws in your state, which govern the use of deadly force in protecting your home from intruders.

I don't advocate "bluffing", as criminals have become more attuned to the behavioral aspects of victims (whether armed or not) and they understand that a weapon presented but not used is less likely to be used as time progresses. So, either be ready to retreat to safety or to be prepared to offer a higher force level in return. Once you've made your decision about which path you want, then planning the most effective methods and tactics is more straightforward.

rrr's suggestion on Ayoob's book is excellent.

Lee

I hope that people will pay attention to your very sensible advice.

 

[GaryProtein]

It also depends on what state you are in. In New York, if someone breaks in or makes an invasion, you can shoot to kill w/o any questions. In some state's you may have to demonstrate you tried to flee or felt that your life is in danger.

Are you sure that is the case in New York State?

If it is, I'm getting an AR15.

 

[JackD201]

Are you sure that is the case in New York State?

If it is, I'm getting an AR15.

I would definitely NOT use Nato 5mm for home defense. It's hasn't got the stopping power (meant to wound and thus slow down enemy groups) and is also very dangerous because it penetrates ceilings and drywall very easily endangering friendlies in other rooms. If you like the look, get one of these shotguns instead!

 

[RBFC]

I would definitely NOT use Nato 5mm for home defense. It's hasn't got the stopping power (meant to wound and thus slow down enemy groups) and is also very dangerous because it penetrates ceilings and drywall very easily endangering friendlies in other rooms. If you like the look, get one of these shotguns instead!

View attachment 12712

Actually, that is false. Both typical shotgun rounds and handgun bullets penetrate interior walls as easily as 5.56 rifle rounds. The light weight of the 5.56 (.223) AR-15 rounds and their tendency to tumble causes them to break up (on average) more quickly than buckshot or handgun bullets, especially if frangible ammunition is used. However, rounds that penetrate drywall also tend to penetrate bad guys effectively (light birdshot that doesn't penetrate wall well also doesn't perform well in anti-personnel applications), so we have a dilemma. There are few good choices if you feel that penetration of interior walls is a high risk. Better to plan your sight line so that it doesn't intersect the kids' rooms (just sayin').

Here's a quick example of shotgun performance, then we'll have to steer the discussion away from firearms.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Note that the first tests were with small shot, and small shot will not always cycle reliably in the pictured semi-auto shotgun.

All handgun and rifle rounds went all the way through, and shotgun rounds penetrated 4 walls.

Another consideration is the ability to handle the weapon. Wives and teenagers will be able to shoot a .223 far easier than a 12 gauge shotgun.


So, we now see the very high incentive for AVOIDANCE of deadly force situations. Hardening the exterior perimeter, good safety protocols and communications, and family "retreat" plans should be elevated to the primary position of importance in the home defense hierarchy. Meeting one (OR MORE) armed felons, whether you are armed or not, should be considered as a poor tactical choice. Why do SWAT teams wait patiently outside a barricaded suspect's position rather than simply storming in (unless imminent threat to hostages is perceived)? It's simply not wise to enter into symmetrical combat when strategy will allow one to avoid it.

Lee