Do bluffs work??

[GaryProtein]

The SAS-12 looks like a winner.

 

[JackD201]

Actually, that is false. Both typical shotgun rounds and handgun bullets penetrate interior walls as easily as 5.56 rifle rounds. The light weight of the 5.56 (.223) AR-15 rounds and their tendency to tumble causes them to break up (on average) more quickly than buckshot or handgun bullets, especially if frangible ammunition is used. However, rounds that penetrate drywall also tend to penetrate bad guys effectively (light birdshot that doesn't penetrate wall well also doesn't perform well in anti-personnel applications), so we have a dilemma. There are few good choices if you feel that penetration of interior walls is a high risk. Better to plan your sight line so that it doesn't intersect the kids' rooms (just sayin').

Here's a quick example of shotgun performance, then we'll have to steer the discussion away from firearms.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Note that the first tests were with small shot, and small shot will not always cycle reliably in the pictured semi-auto shotgun.

All handgun and rifle rounds went all the way through, and shotgun rounds penetrated 4 walls.

Another consideration is the ability to handle the weapon. Wives and teenagers will be able to shoot a .223 far easier than a 12 gauge shotgun.


So, we now see the very high incentive for AVOIDANCE of deadly force situations. Hardening the exterior perimeter, good safety protocols and communications, and family "retreat" plans should be elevated to the primary position of importance in the home defense hierarchy. Meeting one (OR MORE) armed felons, whether you are armed or not, should be considered as a poor tactical choice. Why do SWAT teams wait patiently outside a barricaded suspect's position rather than simply storming in (unless imminent threat to hostages is perceived)? It's simply not wise to enter into symmetrical combat when strategy will allow one to avoid it.

Lee

Thanks for the clarification Lee. I still maintain however that buckshot through a wall is less risky than a .223. I say this as I personally know someone who was hit by an accidental discharge from an AR15 ans sadly didn't make it. I'd be just as scared of pistol rounds through dry wall. While I found the tests very informative, I wonder if anybody has made the comparison shooting through wall, insulation, wall then into ballistic gel.

Anyway, I agree 100% with everything else you said.

 

[RBFC]

Jack,

There are far too many factors involved in the gunshot wound incident you cite to make any realistic judgements. There are great inconsistencies among drywall manufacturers, etc. Also, there are huge differences in ballistic performance of various loadings for both weapons under examination. There are even "standard deviation" differences between loads from the same lot. Combine these facts with varying angles of contact with the wall and the number of wallboard sheets to be penetrated (not to mention hitting studs or electrical conduits)... you can see that drawing hard conclusions from an admittedly emotional incident is problematic. In VietNam, the original M16A1 and the issue rounds were indicted for poor performance, as the foliage would deflect the bullets during flight (thus the ballistic instability of the .223). Heavier bullets and different twist rates in the barrels were employed in an effort to combat this issue. That said, for many years, more people were killed with .22LR rounds than any other!

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. Accidental discharges are always a tragedy regardless of outcome, especially as you describe.

An average ballistic assay of a 12 gauge 00buckshot round has 9 pellets of .30 diameter at a velocity of approx 1000 ft/sec. One pellet compares similarly to a .380 or .38 Special round, and you have 8 more at the same time. Hope this objectively illuminates the issue.

Lee

 

[JackD201]

Thanks Lee, I defer to your experience and knowledge.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Hi Lee. What if I have a baseball bat and the bad guy shows up at the door without a weapon or say with a knife. Assume that I would have no idea how to really hit him with it. Is that any kind of deterrent? Would he think, "ah crap, he is going to bash my head in" and decide to back off?

I know we don't talk about guns here but I am going to bend the rules and ask the same question here: what if I have an empty shotgun? Is it better than nothing? Again, assume that I have no idea how to use it and won't have any bullets anyway.

Some of the responses you've gotten can give the impression that once a person arms himself for self-defense, his respect for the sanctity of life is suddenly downgraded, and/or he would be a fool to not live up to some macho slogan.

In my experience, such has not been the case. I've been in several armed encounters with criminals, and in none of them was I the least bit inclined to "shoot first and ask questions later" or whatever. If anything, my alertness and moral clarity were hyper-sharpened.

In each case (there were four), my desired outcome was the best possible for both of us (no crimes get committed, and nobody gets hurt). My second choice outcome was not so good for him. I was the only one whose will, if imposed, would lead to the best possible outcome for both of us, and fortunately for him, I was able to impose my will and nobody got hurt. But Plan B was ready to go, and I think that willingness on my part was projected as confidence.

Let me tell one story of projected confidence. I was friends with a 75-year old attorney who was in the habit of carrying concealed. One day he was leaving a client's place of business rather late, and as he was walking across the mall parking lot, he got the feeling that something wasn't right. He turned and looked behind him, and several young men were silently running up on him (his hearing was poor, so his definition of "silent" was different from yours or mine). At this point they were about thirty feet away and closing fast. Several things happened all within about one second: His body crouched and leaned toward his assailants; his right hand decisively swept his jacket aside and back as it reached for his holster; he totally fixated on the young men like a predator on its prey (i.e. there was no time for fear, only purpose - and his purpose was "fight" rather than "flight"); and the young men executed a textbook Flintstones-style flailing-stop-and-run-the-other-way. But when his hand reached the holster, there was nothing there! Not even the holster - he'd forgotten to put it on!! The point being, he had projected such supreme confidence and focus that none of the young men doubted for a heartbeat that they'd just made the biggest mistake of their lives.

The only way to project such confidence is to have such confidence. He had it, even though it turned out to be false! He told me that if he had known he was unarmed, he would have been paralyzed with fear knowing that escape was impossible, and he would not have even thought to fake it. He would have had a very bad day, maybe his last, and several young men would have had a very serious crime on their side of the ledger, which would have made their lives worse too.

So at the risk of repeating myself, my two points are: First, if you choose to be armed, that is not going to change who you are. Your moral values and mental acuity will still be 100% intact. You will still have all the wisdom and kindness that you do now; added to that, you'll have power to impose your will when it's the only sane course of action, and therefore the best possible outcome for all involved. And you'll have a backup worst-case-scenario option that you wouldn't otherwise.

(Let me give a quick example: Has having power on this board transformed you into a jerk? Nope; if anything, it has probably made you less inclined to engage in verbal conflict, and when you've had to use your power, you have been especially careful to exercise good judgment and use it for only good. You would do the same with this other kind of power. In fact, I would speculate that you're exactly the kind of person who can best be trusted with this other kind of power.)

My second point is, confidence is a very powerful weapon, but it can't be faked. It's got to be real. Personally I'd grab an empty weapon if it was all that was available, and do my best to fake it (Plan B being "okay, now it's a club"), but that would not be my first choice. If that awful moment ever comes, I think you will want to have the options that the real thing + situational awareness + reasonable preparation can give you. I sure did.

 

[RBFC]

Some of the responses you've gotten can give the impression that once a person arms himself for self-defense, his respect for the sanctity of life is suddenly downgraded, and/or he would be a fool to not live up to some macho slogan.

In my experience, such has not been the case. I've been in several armed encounters with criminals, and in none of them was I the least bit inclined to "shoot first and ask questions later" or whatever. If anything, my alertness and moral clarity were hyper-sharpened.

In each case (there were four), my desired outcome was the best possible for both of us (no crimes get committed, and nobody gets hurt). My second choice outcome was not so good for him. I was the only one whose will, if imposed, would lead to the best possible outcome for both of us, and fortunately for him, I was able to impose my will and nobody got hurt. But Plan B was ready to go, and I think that willingness on my part was projected as confidence.

Let me tell one story of projected confidence. I was friends with a 75-year old attorney who was in the habit of carrying concealed. One day he was leaving a client's place of business rather late, and as he was walking across the mall parking lot, he got the feeling that something wasn't right. He turned and looked behind him, and several young men were silently running up on him (his hearing was poor, so his definition of "silent" was different from yours or mine). At this point they were about thirty feet away and closing fast. Several things happened all within about one second: His body crouched and leaned toward his assailants; his right hand decisively swept his jacket aside and back as it reached for his holster; he totally fixated on the young men like a predator on its prey (i.e. there was no time for fear, only purpose - and his purpose was "fight" rather than "flight"); and the young men executed a textbook Flintstones-style flailing-stop-and-run-the-other-way. But when his hand reached the holster, there was nothing there! Not even the holster - he'd forgotten to put it on!! The point being, he had projected such supreme confidence and focus that none of the young men doubted for a heartbeat that they'd just made the biggest mistake of their lives.

The only way to project such confidence is to have such confidence. He had it, even though it turned out to be false! He told me that if he had known he was unarmed, he would have been paralyzed with fear knowing that escape was impossible, and he would not have even thought to fake it. He would have had a very bad day, maybe his last, and several young men would have had a very serious crime on their side of the ledger, which would have made their lives worse too.

So at the risk of repeating myself, my two points are: First, if you choose to be armed, that is not going to change who you are. Your moral values and mental acuity will still be 100% intact. You will still have all the wisdom and kindness that you do now; added to that, you'll have power to impose your will when it's the only sane course of action, and therefore the best possible outcome for all involved. And you'll have a backup worst-case-scenario option that you wouldn't otherwise.

(Let me give a quick example: Has having power on this board transformed you into a jerk? Nope; if anything, it has probably made you less inclined to engage in verbal conflict, and when you've had to use your power, you have been especially careful to exercise good judgment and use it for only good. You would do the same with this other kind of power. In fact, I would speculate that you're exactly the kind of person who can best be trusted with this other kind of power.)

My second point is, confidence is a very powerful weapon, but it can't be faked. It's got to be real. Personally I'd grab an empty weapon if it was all that was available, and do my best to fake it (Plan B being "okay, now it's a club"), but that would not be my first choice. If that awful moment ever comes, I think you will want to have the options that the real thing + situational awareness + reasonable preparation can give you. I sure did.

Great post. In your friend's case, the confidence gained (and exhibited) from knowing that he had the ability to respond to the perceived threat was invaluable. This is why I stressed proper training in another thread. The wider one's foundation of training, the greater the confidence and success against a wider range of threats.

Lee

 

[amirm]

2. Have some type of deadly force weapon available and have some training in how to use it effectively. Apply your training to your home environment, so that you may understand the amount of space, etc. in which you might engage a hostile subject. Consider what you would instruct your family to do (and where to go, etc.) if you were to confront an intruder in this manner. A good flashlight is an excellent tool, since many of these scenarios play out in low-light environments. There are convenient flashlights that have dedicated mounting systems to attach to your firearm, or you should practice with single-handed use of your flashlight while wielding the baseball bat, etc. with the other hand. THINK about what would actually happen and what you would be required to do! Also, have a basic understanding of the "castle doctrine" laws in your state, which govern the use of deadly force in protecting your home from intruders.

So I got one of these "tactical" flashlights. It is a "Coast HP17TAC High Performance Focusing 615 Lumen LED Flashlight with Tactical Strobe."

LED flashlights are so efficient that most take little batteries. Not this beast. This is massive unit the size of the old Police flashlights and takes D-Cell batteries. And the light this thing puts out... Oh brother. I am talking car headlight level of light output. The light is pure, white and easily travels and lights up hundreds of feet away. The zoom works amazingly well in lighting a big area close or far, small. The other day at night the dogs started to bark and I used to light up distances in our backyard like there was no tomorrow.

Weight-wise it is substantial of course. I hope to not have to use it but can easily see it at short distance being quite capable.

It certainly provides a measure of comfort as far as seeing what is there in the dark especially in our more rural vacation house setting. For $50 or so I spent on it, it is very good value.

 

[RBFC]

Excellent choice!


Be sure to try it out in your home at night, so that you are familiar with the amount of light. You can be partially blinded yourself! The strobe can be very disorienting, especially when cycled between strobe and darkness.


Lee