Do I want my every day stereo, all out performance

Kingrex

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Solypsa was here today. We played some tape, records and digital. I have a nice Tea For The Tillerman 15ips tape, 45 rpm vinyl and digital. We were able to play it with the Dartzeel and the SET 845. First off, the tape is awesome. Erik thinks I need a new Phono preamp. I get it. I have thought the very nice STST Motus II is not getting me where Its capabilities will let it go. I just was not sure where it was lacking. With a better preamp and cartridge, the vinyl would close the gap some. The digital plays nice too. On whole, the tape is thick and full. Its just nice. Easily the best source material and playback with this album. The vinyl is thinner and some aspects of the playback stand out a little. The digital sounded a little hollow when played back to back with the other two. I have never noticed this in the past. I don't think you would know it if you were not playing it back to back with the two other sources. When I had a stand alone digital Oscar Peterson playing, it sounded great.

The amps definitely have their own character. I believe what I have already said still stands. Maybe Erik has a perspective.
 
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Solypsa

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My initial impression is tape rules :)

Seriously tho the Dart and the Mod'd Audions were both really good with a different picture...Dart 108 thick and meaty the Audion a bit more mid forward with different details.

The entry model Allnic phono is a bottleneck at the moment imo with the STST Motus II turntable setup ( but sounding better with the Cinemags than before ), with the Zu Denon second...

Digital ( in the case of the Cat Stevens ) almost sounded a touch 'phasey' with a slight hollow core compared to the full blooded tape. Vinyl was a bit more spare vs the tape but I already said my bit on that. :)

Really enjoyed the PAP speakers with the new coax.

Thanks for the great tunes Rex!
 

Blackmorec

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I'm listening to the Dartzeel and Qobuz serves up A Great Miracle: Jeremiah Lockwood's Guitar Soli. Its flippin amazing. So alive and fresh sounding. As I said at Fremers, I could live with this.
I’m lying in bed early on a Friday morning reading What’s Best on my iPad. Read your comments about Jeremiah Lockwood……clicked on my server icon, went to ‘search’, typed Lockwood, clicked on the 3 Qobuz albums and now they‘re in my favorite albums library. This is the new ‘record collecting’. Instant gratification!
 
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christoph

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The Dart has a very even tempered nature, indeed. It is quite different from Audions.
Have you considered Dart for your Fynes?
 

Kingrex

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I should know better than to have Solopsa over. He is going to cost me money.

Having 3 sources is nice. It creates metrics to measure all by. But it gives a lense to understand faults. It makes you want to up the game of those that fall behind. My digital also needs an update. Ben at Mojo Audio has been telling me as such. I really heard it yesterday.

If my phono and DAC were better, the 845 tube amp would be more even tempered. Possibly the more optimal amp. The Dartzeel is hiding the sins of their comission.

Having the 2 amps is nice in that it allows me to better understand how I may want to shape the tube amp. Replacing the VCap in the signal with a Jupiter Copper Foil Beeswax may pull the slightly forward midrange back. Or my tech may have other ideas. Or maybe I just improve my sources. That tube amp slays acoustic guitar and violins. Its amazing. Vocals are also astounding, just a little forward tilting.
The Dartzeel is shockingly real, and it plays with everything in its proper place and proportion. I never notice "It". The amp. You forget about the amp as it does its job. As Solypsa said to me, you sit back in your chair and your shoulders relax when the Dartzeel is playing.
Rex
 
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Atmasphere

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On whole, the tape is thick and full. Its just nice. Easily the best source material and playback with this album. The vinyl is thinner and some aspects of the playback stand out a little.
You know that a properly working tape machine makes a significant third harmonic when you get near tape saturation (anything over 0VU), right? The 3rd is treated by the ear the same as the 2nd in that while being innocuous, it contributes to 'richness'. Your vinyl may well be more accurate (think about how many generations from the master your tapes are...).

Not arguing that you might prefer the tape- I like it too. The 2nd and 3rd harmonics are quite seductive (also why your 845 amp sounds the way it does).

IMO the distortion signature of the amp is really important since the distortion is never going to go away. So it must be of the type that is least audible. The 2nd and 3rd serve to mask higher ordered harmonics which is why tube amps tend to sound smoother than solid state, even though they make considerably more higher ordered harmonics. When working on our class D project we've found that if the distortion signature is like that of a tube amp, it will sound like one too. If you can then get the distortion down without otherwise messing with the signature, it will retain its relaxed character but be more transparent.

IOW what you're describing really sounds like a distortion issue - the difference between the two amps (and to a lessor degree, how well they match with your speakers).
 

Kingrex

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You know that a properly working tape machine makes a significant third harmonic when you get near tape saturation (anything over 0VU), right? The 3rd is treated by the ear the same as the 2nd in that while being innocuous, it contributes to 'richness'. Your vinyl may well be more accurate (think about how many generations from the master your tapes are...).

Not arguing that you might prefer the tape- I like it too. The 2nd and 3rd harmonics are quite seductive (also why your 845 amp sounds the way it does).

IMO the distortion signature of the amp is really important since the distortion is never going to go away. So it must be of the type that is least audible. The 2nd and 3rd serve to mask higher ordered harmonics which is why tube amps tend to sound smoother than solid state, even though they make considerably more higher ordered harmonics. When working on our class D project we've found that if the distortion signature is like that of a tube amp, it will sound like one too. If you can then get the distortion down without otherwise messing with the signature, it will retain its relaxed character but be more transparent.

IOW what you're describing really sounds like a distortion issue - the difference between the two amps (and to a lessor degree, how well they match with your speakers).
I get what your saying, but not how to apply it.
1 - Get better tapes
2 - Dartzeel has a lot of distortion to sound smooth. Nothing to do. It is what it is.
3 - SET 845 has a lot of distortion. Have my tech work on it more. He has suggested we ditch the input transformer and get a custom as it is only an ok doughnut. I actually thought of having a center tap input balanced 240 volt toroidal made for it. He also wants to change some input power supply capacitors he thinks will act much faster.
 

Atmasphere

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I get what your saying, but not how to apply it.
1 - Get better tapes
2 - Dartzeel has a lot of distortion to sound smooth. Nothing to do. It is what it is.
3 - SET 845 has a lot of distortion. Have my tech work on it more. He has suggested we ditch the input transformer and get a custom as it is only an ok doughnut. I actually thought of having a center tap input balanced 240 volt toroidal made for it. He also wants to change some input power supply capacitors he thinks will act much faster.
I'm not saying that the Dartzeel has a lot of distortion. Our class D doesn't yet it sounds smooth. Any amp can sound smooth and be low distortion if it has the right distortion signature. I would expect that the 845 amp has a lot more distortion, mostly the 2nd harmonic.

The way your comment about the 845 amp is worded its hard to tell if you are talking about an input transformer (which is in the audio chain) or the power transformer. If the former and you are not running balanced, I can't think of a good reason for it unless its used to step up the input voltage. If the latter, putting a center tap in the primary is asking for trouble since the center tap can't be placed perfectly. This would cause the transformer to have a bit of a 2nd harmonic on its output; not good for charging power supplies properly.
 

Kingrex

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I'm not saying that the Dartzeel has a lot of distortion. Our class D doesn't yet it sounds smooth. Any amp can sound smooth and be low distortion if it has the right distortion signature. I would expect that the 845 amp has a lot more distortion, mostly the 2nd harmonic.

The way your comment about the 845 amp is worded its hard to tell if you are talking about an input transformer (which is in the audio chain) or the power transformer. If the former and you are not running balanced, I can't think of a good reason for it unless its used to step up the input voltage. If the latter, putting a center tap in the primary is asking for trouble since the center tap can't be placed perfectly. This would cause the transformer to have a bit of a 2nd harmonic on its output; not good for charging power supplies properly.
Ok on the balanced transformer. I wont mess with balanced.

I totally agree I probably have distortion issues with the tube amp. Much less so with the Dartzeel. The Dartzeel is so quiet. And beautiful to listen too. Not near as clinical or boring as other SS I have listened too. That is my opinion on other SS being boring. Thats just me.
 

microstrip

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(...) IMO the distortion signature of the amp is really important since the distortion is never going to go away. So it must be of the type that is least audible. The 2nd and 3rd serve to mask higher ordered harmonics which is why tube amps tend to sound smoother than solid state, even though they make considerably more higher ordered harmonics. (...)

Unfortunately we have very little or none detailed information on the distortion signature of amplifiers versus voltage, and specially versus current. Even with preamplifiers sometimes the harmonic distortion structure changes with different input amplifier loads, although the THD remains almost constant.
 

Kingrex

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Per Atmasphere and Microstrip, I also have to deal with speaker impedance. The way I am wired now, a static measurement says the speaker impedance is 3.4 ohms. I can wire another way and I think it's 16 ohms but I have not checked. It sounds more alive and dynamic the way I have it. I have not bothered to replace jumpers and remove the biwire. So there is that too.
FWIW, my output transformer is a single tap 6 ohms on the tube amp.
 

stehno

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As I have been playing my 2 amps and fleshing out the difference between them, I have started to ponder what I really want out of my system. Do I want all out, high performance, full redline playback. Or do I really want a more subtle, tempered playback. My 2 amps really are quite similar, but they also diverge in important ways. One really lays it all out there. Here it is. The other is shockingly real, yet it has a gentler hand. Almost a fine calf skin glove. It's just wonderful to listen too. Having both has allowed me to ponder, if I had to choose one, would I go for the full assault, this is all there is to give. Or would I go for, I can love this every day. Nothing lacking. Presented in a beautiful, clean yet totally unobtrusive way.

I think I am finding when I listen to the all out assault, I spend time paying attention. I'm sitting on the edge of the chair noticing everything in the playback. The other amp I find I am just there in the music. Less attentive to what is going on with the electronics. I really cant say whether one or the other is more correct. They are just different. They bring a different vibe to my time in front of the system.
High-end audio was intended to be a performance-oriented industry always striving closer toward the mark and of course some music is quite exhilerating. So without giving it a second thought I'd opt for the all-out performance, full redline, pedal-to-the-metal, balls-to-the-walls, etc, approach.

For one simple reason. I'm making the best performance choices implying I'm doing my best to allow the artists, conductors, and even engineers to have the greatest influence on what I ought to be hearing. Rather than me and/or my electronics inducing some type of potential performance-limiting governor on what I hear. Especially since they know better than me what ought to be heard.

Anyone else ponder this with their electronics?
Rex
Never.
 
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Kingrex

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Discard
 
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Kingrex

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Ok, I went back into my tapes and vinyl. My tapes eat up my vinyl. AJA, the tape has the same pop as the vinyl. Speed and explosiveness. But the tape keeps the intensity after the initual hit. The bass note is more clearly heard. The decay and sustain are much better.

Mozart concerto 3. The symphony is so much more detailed in the tape. Each instrument is heard. Both have a nice violin. But the distortion of the record masks some of the detail. Could be the Silver Cube preamp. Could be the record. But my tape is sweet as could be all around.
 

Atmasphere

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Ok, I went back into my tapes and vinyl. My tapes eat up my vinyl. AJA, the tape has the same pop as the vinyl. Speed and explosiveness. But the tape keeps the intensity after the initual hit. The bass note is more clearly heard. The decay and sustain are much better.

Mozart concerto 3. The symphony is so much more detailed in the tape. Each instrument is heard. Both have a nice violin. But the distortion of the record masks some of the detail. Could be the Silver Cube preamp. Could be the record. But my tape is sweet as could be all around.
Can you hear outright distortion on the LP?
 

Kingrex

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Can you hear outright distortion on the LP?
Lets put it this way. The Lehmann kicks the snot out of my Allnic/SUT for tone and timber. But oddly the Lehmann has hum. Turn it up and there is a deep brrrrr out the speaker. Fairly subtle, but heard at the chair.
Now maybe some of that is the cable. I was also getting some radio. Moving the interconnect stopped that. And my record may also have damage/dirt. Maybe I am hearing the Denon needle drag on the vinyl. How about basic cartridge setup. There are a few area the vinyl may be picking up noise. Its also a different recording.

All things taken into consideration, put the tape on and its very quiet. Its got superb time, tune and tone. Each note is clean and detailed. Top to bottom. Its a better source with the 5 tapes I have played today. Same for the Led Z I have ripping now. And its all with my Dartzeel. I really like this amp. I still don't realize its not tube. And I don't realize its SS. It just is. It does its job and does it very well.
Rex
 
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Solypsa

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If the same/similar type of distortion presents on multiple records that would indicate a review of setup &/or cart condition- but it also could be that particular record.
 

Atmasphere

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Lets put it this way. The Lehmann kicks the snot out of my Allnic/SUT for tone and timber. But oddly the Lehmann has hum. Turn it up and there is a deep brrrrr out the speaker. Fairly subtle, but heard at the chair.
Now maybe some of that is the cable. I was also getting some radio. Moving the interconnect stopped that. And my record may also have damage/dirt. Maybe I am hearing the Denon needle drag on the vinyl. How about basic cartridge setup. There are a few area the vinyl may be picking up noise. Its also a different recording.

All things taken into consideration, put the tape on and its very quiet. Its got superb time, tune and tone. Each note is clean and detailed. Top to bottom. Its a better source with the 5 tapes I have played today. Same for the Led Z I have ripping now. And its all with my Dartzeel. I really like this amp. I still don't realize its not tube. And I don't realize its SS. It just is. It does its job and does it very well.
Rex
You might want to look at the setup to make sure the Denon is doing what it is supposed to. Sometimes you can get a slight amount of dirt seemingly glued to the stylus that might take a bit of washing to remove. That is why I only use a dust brush prior to playing the LP -if I do get dust during playback, its easily removed.

If any of the tracks feel strained or actually break up, you have a real problem- it could be a worn groove, but it could simply be that the arm and cartridge are not a good match. Its also a good idea to explore as much as you can about the phono preamp- does it need the cartridge to be loaded? In some cases this can result in the phono section generating ticks and pops sounding for all the world as if they are on the LP surface.
 

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