"Do Vinyl Records Actually Sound Better Than CDs? We Take A Closer Look" in Slashgear

[tima]

Now after all this I am not saying the LP is superior to digital. I don't think it is, but not for the reasons usually stated. So I'll state them here: The biggest single weakness of the LP is playback; that's where all the 'distortion of the LP' comes in, not during record. Most people fail to set up their turntable correctly. Those 'studies' about LP distortion are mostly bad science by not providing provenance about the playback equipment- go and look for yourself. We don't know if they got the setup right, if their phono section had RFI problems and so on. The second biggest problem of the LP is phono section preamps, the designers of which don't seem to realize what happens when you put an inductor in parallel with a capacitance (the tonearm cable) and so the phono section can generate ticks and pops due to overload problems that sound for all the world as if they are on the LP surface. I found out about this problem serendipitously 35 years ago. The third biggest problem of the LP is platter pads. Most people don't understand how they affect distortion of the LP in playback; when the LP is tracked by the stylus it can resonate and 'talk back' to the stylus. A proper mat is the same durometer as the vinyl so absorbs vibration and damps it.

Once you get those things right in the paragraph above, you find that most LPs are free of ticks and pops and very low distortion. I'm very used to playing entire sides that are perfectly quiet. When an LP project is cut, the pressing plant will send a 'test pressing' back to the producer, on which he has to sign off prior to the pressing plant going ahead with the LP run. So if the producer is conscientious, there will be no ticks or pops because there are none on the stamper.

Ralph, I take this as a round-about way to be say: if you do the wrong things, you won't have optimal performance. Is that basically it?

The "biggest single weakness of the LP is playback" is true if
-- the table is not set up correctly, or
-- the phonostage is of a design you find problematic * or
-- if they use a mat or the wrong mat. ( not quite clear on that last point).

But, if one does not do the wrong things, -- the list could be anything, there are many ways to screw up -- then ... what -- the biggest single weakness of the LP does not exist?

I don't know where my front-end stands in relation to your list. While there are defective records where cleaning does not help, I find if I keep my records clean I have no problem with ticks and pops.

Despite all this, I still think digital is a little better if its done right (again, most of its problems are in playback). Its main advantage is its a lot easier to set up and you can often plug and play, something impossible with LPs.

This sounds to me like you think digital is a little better because it is more convenient and/or not as easy to get wrong -- just plug it in and click.

 

[mtemur]

May I state the obvious proven numerous times over the course of musical history. It may likely take several decades, if not more, for the public / critics to recognize and appreciate the creativity, artistry, and genius of any current (or recently deceased) performer or composer.

It is most probably what’s going to happen, today’s artists will receive top status in the future. There is also a possibility that all will be forgotten. Music history is full of forgotten artists. Future generation will witness which is going to happen but my guess is like yours, some of them will be remembered and appreciated.

 

[Atmasphere]

What hardware/media do you use for digital playback?

Mostly I use CDs. I really don't like the idea of my library somewhere undefined and vulnerable to hacking, power loss or other failure. I've used a variety of DACs; right now I'm using a Topping D90SE, which, when you remove the expectation bias of more expensive equipment, is quite musical and neutral. I can play it all day with no complaints.

Ralph, I take this as a round-about way to be say: if you do the wrong things, you won't have optimal performance. Is that basically it?

The "biggest single weakness of the LP is playback" is true if
-- the table is not set up correctly, or
-- the phonostage is of a design you find problematic * or
-- if they use a mat or the wrong mat. ( not quite clear on that last point).

But, if one does not do the wrong things, -- the list could be anything, there are many ways to screw up -- then ... what -- the biggest single weakness of the LP does not exist?

I don't know where my front-end stands in relation to your list. While there are defective records where cleaning does not help, I find if I keep my records clean I have no problem with ticks and pops.




This sounds to me like you think digital is a little better because it is more convenient and/or not as easy to get wrong -- just plug it in and click.

If you do the wrong things, you won't have optimal playback. Analog is so tricky to get right and there have been advances since some of the 'scientific' studies about tracking and the like were done in the 1960s... Its obvious that cartridges and tonearms are vastly improved since then .

To clear up that last point, if your platter pad is right, it can make any turntable sound better (ignoring the arm for this comment) than any turntable that doesn't have a mat that is correct. So that's a pretty big variable! The mat needs to not only damp the LP without favoritism to any frequency but also damp the platter (and obviously the platter must be damped independently of the mat as well). 'Better' in the statement above = more solid bass, less high frequency hash (or none at all); smoother mids and highs with more detail (so audibly and measurably less distortion).

So the fact that the platter pad can affect distortion is pretty important- now look at all those studies of LP 'distortion' and tell me how many had the platter pad damping right; the answer is 'none of them'.

Just for the record, if you see what I did there, we made our own turntable, the Atma-Sphere 208 (based on the Empire 208 but with a completely different plinth) which we sold up until the Technics SL1200G became available (the weakness of that machine is its platter pad BTW...). Getting the platter pad right is only one of the issues that can affect playback; another is that the platter must be as rigidly coupled to the base of the arm while also that coupling also being completely dead, something at which most turntables fail (and is something Technics got right in the new SL1200G). When you have that profound yet dead coupling, if there is vibration in the platter the arm will not be able to transduce it since it will be moving in the same plane; you get Common Mode Rejection. This is another data point as to how most 'studies' of LP reproduction got it wrong out of ignorance.

The Westerex mastering system we ran had a 30dB feedback loop around the cutter and cutter amps, in addition to the 25dB of feedback in the cutter amps themselves. They were pretty advanced for solid state design in 1969 (but those amps were not exactly what I would call stable; I held my breath every time I powered them up). I was planning a class D amp module to replace them but then the Appllodisc plant burned down and that was that. I refer you to Bruno Putzeys' writings about what happens when you have that kind of feedback, resulting in very low distortion at all frequencies (most amps with feedback have rising distortion with frequency, which causes them to sound brighter and harsher since higher ordered harmonics above the turnover frequency of the feedback are unmasked). LP mastering systems had this figured out decades ago!

I don't object to people saying digital is better than analog. I object when the statements they make about the LP are blatantly false to support their argument. Again, if you're going to denigrate something, at least have the facts. Digital is a marginal improvement; the LP is far better than most people realize. That simple fact is why they are still around; you don't have to know any engineering stuff to understand the simple economics of it; if digital was a slam dunk LPs would have been gone long ago.

The reason I like having LPs is I'm old school and like to hold the artwork and media in my hands. I also like the fact that if the power goes out the LPs are perfectly safe. CDs are kind of like that too, but if they fail for any reason, unlike a bit of dirt that might cause an LP to skip, there's not much you can do about it but get another CD (if its even available). Finally, I've run a studio for most of my adult life and am well aware of how master tapes degrade over time. If you like to hear the old master conductors like Bruno Walter or Fritz Reiner at their best, the master tapes are why you can't do it with digital. So anyone who is ardent about older recordings will want a proper LP playback system regardless of whether they are pro digital (like me) or not! You simply can never hear what those recordings are about thru digital means since the tapes lost their vivacious quality over the intervening decades.

 

[hopkins]

So anyone who is ardent about older recordings will want a proper LP playback system regardless of whether they are pro digital (like me) or not! You simply can never hear what those recordings are about thru digital means since the tapes lost their vivacious quality over the intervening decades.

What about if you go back to the 78 era (< early 1950s)? My experience is that well mastered modern CDs made from original metal matrices are often superior to both original 78s (which rarely survive in good condition) and later LP reissues. It could obviously be a question of playback equipment. I don't know.

 

[Atmasphere]

What about if you go back to the 78 era? My experience is that well mastered modern CDs made from original metal matrices are often superior to both original 78s (which rarely survive in good condition) and later LP reissues. It could obviously be a question of playback equipment. I don't know.

Wow- I don't doubt that- if you can find the metal stampers! You'd have to find a way to play them back properly, so now you're stuck with how well the playback is actually done. But I can see that turning out pretty well.

 

[hopkins]

CDs are kind of like that too, but if they fail for any reason, unlike a bit of dirt that might cause an LP to skip, there's not much you can do about it but get another CD (if its even available).

I rip all my CDs, and play them from a drive (which I back up). Problem solved.

 

[hopkins]

Wow- I don't doubt that- if you can find the metal stampers! You'd have to find a way to play them back properly, so now you're stuck with how well the playback is actually done. But I can see that turning out pretty well.

Thanks. Just for clarification purposes, I was referring to record companies getting a hold of the original metal stampers to produce digital re-issues, not each and every one of us But you are right, they are not always available. Some labels have to work with a variety of material (the original stampers, or 78s, and even sometimes later date LP re-issues when everything else is gone or in poor condition).

 

[Kingrex]

I was looking at my TT completely broken down and now I am fretting putting it together. Its going to take me a week to figure it all out and dial it in.

 

[wil]

Ralph, I take this as a round-about way to be say: if you do the wrong things, you won't have optimal performance. Is that basically it?

The "biggest single weakness of the LP is playback" is true if
-- the table is not set up correctly, or
-- the phonostage is of a design you find problematic * or
-- if they use a mat or the wrong mat. ( not quite clear on that last point).

But, if one does not do the wrong things, -- the list could be anything, there are many ways to screw up -- then ... what -- the biggest single weakness of the LP does not exist?

I don't know where my front-end stands in relation to your list. While there are defective records where cleaning does not help, I find if I keep my records clean I have no problem with ticks and pops.




This sounds to me like you think digital is a little better because it is more convenient and/or not as easy to get wrong -- just plug it in and click.

I would say based on my experience, that it is also very easy to get digital streaming wrong. Much attention needs to be set up to the network. It’s a more complex undertaking. Sometimes I’m envious of the relative simplicity of CDs and a player.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thanks. Just for clarification purposes, I was referring to record companies getting a hold of the original metal stampers to produce digital re-issues, not each and every one of us But you are right, they are not always available. Some labels have to work with a variety of material (the original stampers, or 78s, and even sometimes later date LP re-issues when everything else is gone or in poor condition).

I was referring to record companies too. The problem is after a record sales dropped off and the title was old enough, the stampers got purged from the pressing plant. That happens a lot with LP stampers too. So I imagine a label that actually has 78 stampers on hand to be rather unusual.

 

[Atmasphere]

I would say based on my experience, that it is also very easy to get digital streaming wrong. Much attention needs to be set up to the network. It’s a more complex undertaking. Sometimes I’m envious of the relative simplicity of CDs and a player.

Yeah- plug and play is the single biggest advantage of digital playback and the single worst thing about LPs.

 

[PeterA]

To clear up that last point, if your platter pad is right, it can make any turntable sound better (ignoring the arm for this comment) than any turntable that doesn't have a mat that is correct. So that's a pretty big variable! The mat needs to not only damp the LP without favoritism to any frequency but also damp the platter (and obviously the platter must be damped independently of the mat as well). 'Better' in the statement above = more solid bass, less high frequency hash (or none at all); smoother mids and highs with more detail (so audibly and measurably less distortion).

So the fact that the platter pad can affect distortion is pretty important- now look at all those studies of LP 'distortion' and tell me how many had the platter pad damping right; the answer is 'none of them'.

Just for the record, if you see what I did there, we made our own turntable, the Atma-Sphere 208 (based on the Empire 208 but with a completely different plinth) which we sold up until the Technics SL1200G became available (the weakness of that machine is its platter pad BTW...). Getting the platter pad right is only one of the issues that can affect playback; another is that the platter must be as rigidly coupled to the base of the arm while also that coupling also being completely dead, something at which most turntables fail (and is something Technics got right in the new SL1200G). When you have that profound yet dead coupling, if there is vibration in the platter the arm will not be able to transduce it since it will be moving in the same plane; you get Common Mode Rejection. This is another data point as to how most 'studies' of LP reproduction got it wrong out of ignorance.

I agree that the platter pad is critical. I would add that it is really the record interface with the platter surface including any pad that is important. Is the vinyl simply placed on the platter pad or is it clamped down or screwed down or under weight or vacuum hold down? How are warps dealt with? Is the contact even across the surface? One can also over dampen the LP and suck the life or energy out of the music.

 

[Rexp]

Mostly I use CDs. I really don't like the idea of my library somewhere undefined and vulnerable to hacking, power loss or other failure. I've used a variety of DACs; right now I'm using a Topping D90SE, which, when you remove the expectation bias of more expensive equipment, is quite musical and neutral. I can play it all day with no complaints.

Thanks, I agree you don't have to spend fortunes to get good digital playback my issue is with the quality of recordings. Do you find CD's these days mostly good sounding?

 

[tima]

That simple fact is why they are still around; you don't have to know any engineering stuff to understand the simple economics of it; if digital was a slam dunk LPs would have been gone long ago.

I noted that in a post up-thread:

I believe it was Ralph Karsten who proffered the view that in the case of successful technology succession the new technology replaces the prior technology. For example, the vinyl LP replaced the shellac 78 in 1948 and that switch occured almost overnight.

The compact disc was introduced in ~1982. 42 years later there remains an active market for new LP vinyl records -- the LP has not been replaced. Streaming begins in the early 2000s (Pandora) but it wasn't until Youtube arrived ~2005 and in ~2008 Spotify launched with other streaming vendors arriving soon after. My understanding of streaming -- unlike the CD's intent --has it largely as a reponse to piracy (Napster, etc.) rather than as a superior listening experience. My sense of its appeal is largely one of convenience.

I would say based on my experience, that it is also very easy to get digital streaming wrong. Much attention needs to be set up to the network. It’s a more complex undertaking. Sometimes I’m envious of the relative simplicity of CDs and a player.

Streaming introduces its users to IT technology -- a field I was in for thirty years. This includes data management which presumably a streamer device handles somewhat. For those that choose to own music, there is also data backup, storage management and restoration and the devices that enable this. Then there is networking, typically connecting a modem to a router and onward, often with a variety of protocols and connections. Then there is the streamer user-interface and its software which likely means continual software updates. Different manufacturers will be different on that. Since it's all at the 'audiophile level' which likely means lots of settings and parameters. (How many streamers include virus protection on the device? Probably not many -- that's a network issue but the streamer is on the network.) Then there are hardware changes and updates. Like people here who don't know how to maintain a turntable or setup a cartridge, I imagine all the above can be outsourced at a price if it is not learned. In the IT world there are specialists and teams who deal with the various segments and their associated issues.

So yes, Ralph is right. CD is plug and play and far simpler. Analog is not plug and play and you will want to know the right things to do. Ralph has his views based on his experience but not everyone shares those views, so there is still debate on various analog topics -- although there is a lot of knowledge and experience with analog and it is relatively straightforward to get help, even if the help does not uniformly agree.

Given the potential headaches of streaming, what is it's appeal? In my opinion, for some people there is an appeal in having no physical media, although the fact that there is something tangible, at least with LPs and their album covers, is an attraction for those that like that. While different systems with different sources have varying sound quality, I don't believe audiophile streaming has inherently better sound quality. And the fact, like it or not, that some people don't care for the sound from digital devices compared to analog for whatever reason, is what it is. I think it comes down to the streamer service user interface -- point and click to play music along with access to whatever broad? array of music offerings are on hand. Sit in your chair -- you don't need to get up -- and choose what you want to hear. In a word, convenience.

 

[hopkins]

Given the potential headaches of streaming, what is it's appeal? In my opinion, for some people there is an appeal in having no physical media, although the fact that there is something tangible, at least with LPs and their album covers, is an attraction for those that like that. While different systems with different sources have varying sound quality, I don't believe audiophile streaming has inherently better sound quality. And the fact, like it or not, that some people don't care for the sound from digital devices compared to analog for whatever reason, is what it is. I think it comes down to the streamer service user interface -- point and click to play music along with access to whatever broad array of music offerings are on hand. Sit in your chair -- you don't need to get up -- and choose what you want to hear. In a word, convenience.

I can never find CDs in my shelves - the print is just too small. The liner notes/credits are also very small. With box sets, it makes it often a real pain to find the tracks that you actually want to listen to.

What about the music that you purchase (or obtain) as files? If you wanted to keep it all "physical" you would have to burn the tracks back on CDRs... or you would need a file server, so you may as well simply use that for everything.

In my particular case, I have also set up a system to add a lot of metadata to the albums, which is something I would not be able to do with CDs (well, I could have kept a database on the side, dissociated from the files/CDs, which is what some people do).

I do agree that setting up a playback system for digital can be daunting.

Digital has its detractors, but even it's supporters make it seem like it is unnecessarily complicated. Read any audio forum, and you can go mad trying to figure out what equipment you need to get the best of it: cascades of ethernet switches, linear supplies, special cables, etc.. it's a "free for all", and no one seems to agree on anything. All this does not help. Is it all necessary ? I don't think so, but I'm not going to debate it

 

[wil]

I noted that in a post up-thread:





Streaming introduces its users to IT technology -- a field I was in for thirty years. This includes data management which presumably a streamer device handles somewhat. For those that choose to own music, there is also data backup, storage management and restoration and the devices that enable this. Then there is networking, typically connecting a modem to a router and onward, often with a variety of protocols and connections. Then there is the streamer user-interface and its software which likely means continual software updates. Different manufacturers will be different on that. Since it's all at the 'audiophile level' which likely means lots of settings and parameters. (How many streamers include virus protection on the device? Probably not many -- that's a network issue but the streamer is on the network.) Then there are hardware changes and updates. Like people here who don't know how to maintain a turntable or setup a cartridge, I imagine all the above can be outsourced at a price if it is not learned. In the IT world there are specialists and teams who deal with the various segments and their associated issues.

So yes, Ralph is right. CD is plug and play and far simpler. Analog is not plug and play and you will want to know the right things to do. Ralph has his views based on his experience but not everyone shares those views, so there is still debate on various analog topics -- although there is a lot of knowledge and experience with analog and it is relatively straightforward to get help, even if the help does not uniformly agree.

Given the potential headaches of streaming, what is its appeal? In my opinion, for some people there is an appeal in having no physical media, although the fact that there is something tangible, at least with LPs and their album covers, is an attraction for those that like that. While different systems with different sources have varying sound quality, I don't believe audiophile streaming has inherently better sound quality. And the fact, like it or not, that some people don't care for the sound from digital devices compared to analog for whatever reason, is what it is. I think it comes down to the streamer service user interface -- point and click to play music along with access to whatever broad? array of music offerings are on hand. Sit in your chair -- you don't need to get up -- and choose what you want to hear. In a word, convenience.

I can only speak for myself, but the above doesn’t describe how I use streaming to listen to music. Maybe it does for some others. I tend to get up out of the chair every 20 minutes, like I used to do in my LP days.

“Convenience” is kind of a petty word to be associated with listening to music, imho. Not to be grandiose about it, but I relate to music as more of a spiritual quest and exploration.

For music exploration, streaming is an absolute revelation. I can find one bassist or violinist or pianist or drummer, and explore the endless branches and musicians from their root source. I just wish I had 100 years to keep exploring.

That this can be done (not necessarily easily) with excellent sonics is extremely important to me as well.

 

[the sound of Tao]

In setup, operation and maintenance CD replay is by far the easiest and most convenient music source… plug a CD transport via cable into a dac and into your pre… buy a cd, insert into transport and push play.

In a poorly optimised digital system also going via CD is likely to be the safest, reliable sonic choice. The benefits of a CD transport come across even at a relatively budget level.

Streaming in an unoptimised digital setup is a classic recipe for the kinds of issues typically reported with streaming.

In a poor digital setup streaming is most often clearly not as good as local file based music replays or good quality CD setup.

Once you’ve invested more and spent a fair bit of time sorting out all the various options on digital tricks and finessing that you typically read about in server threads then a sufficiently optimised file based server setup is much more likely to be more sonically competitive to CD or better for some.

In optimised digital system with file based server the local file based replay starts to become distinctly more of a quality option against the CD playback.

When a digital setup is really on point the quality with streaming becomes increasingly less of an issue compared to a local file replay. You don’t need a Taiko or Wadax server to get to this point though obviously with either of those servers you are in a highly supported area for peak digital performance.

In the Olympus server from Taiko I think I even saw mention that streaming music may even have sonic benefits in certain conditions over local file based replay… or something along those lines.

I often think that one of the best signs of an optimised digital setup is the diminishing sonic issues of playing music via streaming versus local file.

The path to get to that level of digital optimisation is much more involved generally than getting to a good baseline with CD… and it also requires staying on top of software updates… all possible but nowhere near as convenient as a more regularly plug and play option like CD.

To get the best out of music accessibility advantages with streaming music comes with challenges of entirely rethinking your strategy on how to navigate so much choice and maintain a good library management system accessibility. Do that well and organise yourself to use its ability to research music more strategically and it becomes a phenomenal tool to familiarise yourself with music performance and to broadly compare performance and learn from the diversity of performance responses especially with classical music
.
I don’t find setting up and operating an optimised server and streaming system essentially about convenience… it asks a lot of you to do it well… read the Taiko and Wadax threads as well as the multiple computer audio threads, the choices for optimising with server systems are quite mind boggling and constantly evolving. To be good at it requires a high degree of developing new understanding and investing plenty of individual experimentation if you want it to be at its best.

The only source even remotely close to simple plug and play realistically seems to be CD based digital which along with some if its positive sonic attributes makes it ideal for audiophiles who want access to music recorded in the digital era (though without the immediacy or access afforded with streaming) and for those who struggle experientially or technically with computer audio.

 

[hopkins]

The only thing even remotely close to plug and play realistically seems to be CD based digital which along with some its positive sonic attributes makes it ideal for audiophiles who want easy access to music recorded in the digital era but struggle philosophically or technically with computer audio.

Using streaming services is extremely simple these days.

I use a WiiM Pro. It is "plug and play". All you need to do is install the app on your phone (you could even do without) and you are good to go. If you want to use streaming services, that's all you need. If you want to use local files, it is fairly easy to install a server (LMS, UPNP, Roon...) - provided you know your way around computers (I know that can be a problem for some).

The quality will depend essentially on your DAC.

Using the Toslink output of the WiiM Pro, I personally don't hear any differences with a CD player (using the same tracks) or with any other form of digital playback.

Similarly, I've heard (written reports) that the MSB DACs give excellent results as well with very basic sources, which become indistinguishable from more expensive sources, meaning that you don't need to tinker and tweak any longer...

 

[mtemur]

One can also over dampen the LP and suck the life or energy out of the music.

+1

 

[Robh3606]

Digital is a marginal improvement; the LP is far better than most people realize. That simple fact is why they are still around; you don't have to know any engineering stuff to understand the simple economics of it; if digital was a slam dunk LPs would have been gone long ago.

Yes but it's also trendy. If you go up on Bandcamp as an example there are many new and upcoming bands that will release limited vinyl runs of a couple hundred. You can purchase any manner of digital copies in several formats. CD releases are sometimes non existent as you can burn your own.

Going to shows and at the local ginmill I have had conversation's about music, Bandcamp, and vinyl. I was surprised that in most cases they were using minimal set-up's such as all in one systems and even portable players.

Not all of the vinyl users are taking advantage of the format. It was more I have a bunch of LP's which completely surprised me.
I was not expecting that at all and was looking for a Great your into vinyl what gear do you use? conversation. A good stereo talk only to be huh!

Rob