"Do Vinyl Records Actually Sound Better Than CDs? We Take A Closer Look" in Slashgear

[the sound of Tao]

Using streaming services is extremely simple these days.

I use a WiiM Pro. It is "plug and play". All you need to do is install the app on your phone (you could even do without) and you are good to go. If you want to use streaming services, that's all you need. If you want to use local files, it is fairly easy to install a server (LMS, UPNP, Roon...) - provided you know your way around computers (I know that can be a problem for some).

The quality will depend essentially on your DAC.

Using the Toslink output of the WiiM Pro, I personally don't hear any differences with a CD player (using the same tracks) or with any other form of digital playback.

Similarly, I've heard (written reports) that the MSB DACs give excellent results as well with very basic sources, which become indistinguishable from more expensive sources, meaning that you don't need to tinker and tweak any longer...

There’s huge variability in approaches in digital setups… the more hi end tends to involve highly evolved approaches and simple isn’t reflective of the trend at all. If you look through typical hi end computer audio threads… I mentioned Wadax and Taiko but all the best regarded server brands can apply here. An iPhone is simple and can stream but I’m pointing towards the hi end. CD players and CD transports are typically much simpler for setup.

 

[hopkins]

There’s huge variability in approaches in digital setups… the more hi end tends to involve highly evolved approaches and simple isn’t reflective of the trend at all. If you look through typical hi end computer audio threads… I mentioned Wadax and Taiko but all the best regarded server brands can apply here. An iPhone is simple and can stream but I’m pointing towards the hi end. CD players and CD transports are typically much simpler for setup.

You say that high end "tends to involve highly evolved approaches and simple isn't reflective of the trend at all". Well, I've read user reports that the MSB DACs with the Reference Digital Director - for example - are effective in reducing source dependency - which contradicts your statement. Is MSB "high end" enough for you?

 

[the sound of Tao]

You say that high end "tends to involve highly evolved approaches and simple isn't reflective of the trend at all". Well, I've read user reports that the MSB DACs with the Reference Digital Director - for example - are effective in reducing source dependency - which contradicts your statement. Is MSB "high end" enough for you?

I really don’t think that because a design goes through a pairing back approach means that what they are doing is ultimately simple… have you looked inside the MSB tech.

It’s about implementation and if you look at what users who are mostly tending to do in setting up their computer and file based audio systems with multiple switches, multiple separate power supplies, mixing in optical fibre boxes, specialist cables and connectivity like with Wadax and Taiko… much of it costing a lot… I don’t see that an area of some simplification equates to simple. If you think it does represent the approach overall these days all good.

 

[tima]

Convenience” is kind of a petty word to be associated with listening to music, imho. Not to be grandiose about it, but I relate to music as more of a spiritual quest and exploration.

You know I was talking about using streaming not about listening to music in a general sense. If someone said streaming is an inconvenient way to play music, you'd likely whine about that as well. Ideologues can accept only high praise.

I tend to get up out of the chair every 20 minutes, like I used to do in my LP days.

But not to change out tangible media. Streaming gives you that choice. -- another aspect of its convenience.

 

[wil]

You know I was talking about using streaming not about listening to music in a general sense. If someone said streaming is an inconvenient way to play music, you'd likely whine about that as well. Ideologues can accept only high praise.



But not to change out tangible media. Streaming gives you that choice. -- another aspect of its convenience.

I’m not whining. Another word you chose to use that I don’t agree with. I won’t try to explain it to you again as I just think you’re being duplicitous. Time to move on

 

[hopkins]

I really don’t think that because a design goes through a pairing back approach means that what they are doing is ultimately simple… have you looked inside the MSB tech.

I was not referring to the design of the DACs, which is indeed "complex" - but as end users, we don't have to worry about that.

It’s about implementation and if you look at what users who are mostly tending to do in setting up their computer and file based audio systems with multiple switches, multiple separate power supplies, mixing in optical fibre boxes, specialist cables and connectivity like with Wadax and Taiko… much of it costing a lot… I don’t see that an area of some simplification equates to simple. If you think it does represent the approach overall these days all good.

Yes, I think the trend will be towards better designed DACs that will render all these upstream "tweaks" obsolete. It's just something to look out for. The idea that you need all these solutions upstream of a DAC are so engrained in the audiophile "psyche" that people may not even be curious to try simpler solutions when they do use better designed DACs (like the latest MSB, from what I can tell - I think my DAC also falls in that category, but it is not costly enough to be credible in such a forum as this one!) - or they may simply decide to "throw money at a problem" without considering whether the "problem" is in fact still real. We'll see how things evolve.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I was not referring to the design of the DACs, which is indeed "complex" - but as end users, we don't have to worry about that.



Yes, I think the trend will be towards better designed DACs that will render all these upstream "tweaks" obsolete. It's just something to look out for. The idea that you need all these solutions upstream of a DAC are so engrained in the audiophile "psyche" that people may not even be curious to try simpler solutions when they do use better designed DACs (like the latest MSB, from what I can tell - I think my DAC also falls in that category, but it is not costly enough to be credible in such a forum as this one!) - or they may simply decide to "throw money at a problem" without considering whether the "problem" is in fact still real. We'll see how things evolve.

Some love more constant engagement in upgrading/tweaking… it’s not always considered inconvenient but can be for many a fundamental part of the joy of the process.

I started out trying to get digital to work for me better like many of us over 30 years ago… still going

But I have increasingly got things to a point where I can put more of my focus onto using my setup to expand my understanding more into music and put the technical and operational requirements of the system into a more balanced perspective… I figure none of this is static at all.

The life cycle phase of digital is still clearly in an expanding outward growth swing I’d figure. It’s still hardly convenient set and forget tech. CD is much more stabilised and generally a less demanding operational process… it’s awesome and preferable for many.

Analogue has the most scope for fine tuning, and server or file based digital approaches vary a lot. How much and how far we go with any format and how inconvenient or involving (depending on our needs) we make it is these days is largely up to us.

 

[PYP]

As it is for @wil , for me streaming is about music discovery. I rarely use the part of the library that was ripped from CDs long ago. There is just too much new content. If that appeals, streaming can be a lot of fun.

Streamers, control software and services such as Qobuz have improved enormously lately. I'm not saying the Grimm MU1 (which I owned previously) or MU2 (my current streamer/upsampler/DAC) are an endgame for the folks who typically look further upstream (cost-wise) for their solution, but these Grimm streamers are very immune to power and copper ethernet noise issues. That means less messing about with multiple switches and their associated power supplies, cables, etc. One could really start at this simple level and live with that for a good while. You can still feed your CD transport into them and the sound will be improved by the Grimm magic sauce. The MU2 provides an entire digital front end.

I thought it worth mentioning since some folks assume musical engagement will suffer if they don't too -- by endlessly adding and upgrading routers/switches/power supplies. If that is your thing, great and more power to you, but it shouldn't be assumed to be essential by those who haven't tried streaming yet. Solidly designed and implemented streamers should be plug-n-play.

 

[Atmasphere]

I agree that the platter pad is critical. I would add that it is really the record interface with the platter surface including any pad that is important. Is the vinyl simply placed on the platter pad or is it clamped down or screwed down or under weight or vacuum hold down? How are warps dealt with? Is the contact even across the surface? One can also over dampen the LP and suck the life or energy out of the music.

Its impossible to overdamp something of vibration. If you encounter this, its because the damping system employed isn't effective at all frequencies. Due to how the ear perceives tonality, if you kill high frequency vibration but not the lows, the result may well sound 'dead'. Once you get an effective damping system that covers the entire bandwidth, you'll find this phenomena goes away. What's left is the music!

Thanks, I agree you don't have to spend fortunes to get good digital playback my issue is with the quality of recordings. Do you find CD's these days mostly good sounding?

That depends entirely on the recording!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In setup, operation and maintenance CD replay is by far the easiest and most convenient music source… plug a CD transport via cable into a dac and into your pre… buy a cd, insert into transport and push play.

In a poorly optimised digital system also going via CD is likely to be the safest, reliable sonic choice. The benefits of a CD transport come across even at a relatively budget level.

Streaming in an unoptimised digital setup is a classic recipe for the kinds of issues typically reported with streaming.

In a poor digital setup streaming is most often clearly not as good as local file based music replays or good quality CD setup.

Once you’ve invested more and spent a fair bit of time sorting out all the various options on digital tricks and finessing that you typically read about in server threads then a sufficiently optimised file based server setup is much more likely to be more sonically competitive to CD or better for some.

In optimised digital system with file based server the local file based replay starts to become distinctly more of a quality option against the CD playback.

When a digital setup is really on point the quality with streaming becomes increasingly less of an issue compared to a local file replay. You don’t need a Taiko or Wadax server to get to this point though obviously with either of those servers you are in a highly supported area for peak digital performance.

In the Olympus server from Taiko I think I even saw mention that streaming music may even have sonic benefits in certain conditions over local file based replay… or something along those lines.

I often think that one of the best signs of an optimised digital setup is the diminishing sonic issues of playing music via streaming versus local file.

The path to get to that level of digital optimisation is much more involved generally than getting to a good baseline with CD… and it also requires staying on top of software updates… all possible but nowhere near as convenient as a more regularly plug and play option like CD.

streaming with the Wadax server does not require much in terms of user actions. you can just plug the Ethernet cable directly into the server, or add a Network switch, and away you go. Wadax can dial into the server/dac and help too. you do have to add an i-pad and load Roon, Tidal and Quboz....but beyond that it's plug and play. if you can navigate sending emails and surf the web, reboot a laptop, not much more skill is required.

you see prompts to update software from time to time, but zero actions besides choosing the updates and waiting for a minute or so. mostly the music does not even stop playing. yes; it can hang up sometimes. streaming does rely on your network, and these services, to be smooth. and they are not perfect. which is the downside. the upside is way higher which is access. and going deep into a music direction with little real world limits. and the performance can be fantastic. too good to be true, really. you lose yourself into the experience.

i am about to add a CD transport in the next day or so, which i do expect to be pretty easy. just an S/PDIF cable, and then a remote and button to push on the Wadax dac. which is easier, but not much. i'll be mostly playing existing CD's, but finding and acquiring new CD's is lots more work than using streaming to explore. but deciding which to 'like more' is personal.

To get the best out of music accessibility advantages with streaming music comes with challenges of entirely rethinking your strategy on how to navigate so much choice and maintain a good library management system accessibility. Do that well and organise yourself to use its ability to research music more strategically and it becomes a phenomenal tool to familiarise yourself with music performance and to broadly compare performance and learn from the diversity of performance responses especially with classical music.

on the digital side, Roon allows for great choices of approaching the music catalogue, and will offer relevant choices including your file library. and you can go into 'focus' in your library and sort choices in a multitude of ways. and of course, build playlists. as well as with Tidal, set up a 'feed' into an active playlist based on your personal listening algorithm that grows. and even share playlists with other users.

every Friday Quboz and Tidal offer a dozen or so new musical choices so it's a natural process to sample these offerings and get in the habit of expanding your viewpoint. also; anytime you see any reference to any music, it's super easy to go to Roon and hear it right now. which is addicting.

so you can evolve your approaches.

I don’t find setting up and operating an optimised server and streaming system essentially about convenience… it asks a lot of you to do it well… read the Taiko and Wadax threads as well as the multiple computer audio threads, the choices for optimising with server systems are quite mind boggling and constantly evolving. To be good at it requires a high degree of developing new understanding and investing plenty of individual experimentation if you want it to be at its best.

for me i don't think abut this much. the network is something i know from time to time i will experiment to see if there is more, but it's a small worry. people offer to send me stuff to try, and it's pretty easy to do that so i will.

The only source even remotely close to simple plug and play realistically seems to be CD based digital which along with some if its positive sonic attributes makes it ideal for audiophiles who want access to music recorded in the digital era (though without the immediacy or access afforded with streaming) and for those who struggle experientially or technically with computer audio.

ask me in a month how i view adding CD spinning to my musical journey. i am excited about hearing discs i've not listened to in years, and a few i have sitting here i've never heard yet. where will that go to? don't yet know.

 

[the sound of Tao]

streaming with the Wadax server does not require much in terms of user actions. you can just plug the Ethernet cable directly into the server, or add a Network switch, and away you go. Wadax can dial into the server/dac and help too. you do have to add an i-pad and load Roon, Tidal and Quboz....but beyond that it's plug and play. if you can navigate sending emails and surf the web, reboot a laptop, not much more skill is required.

you see prompts to update software from time to time, but zero actions besides choosing the updates and waiting for a minute or so. mostly the music does not even stop playing. yes; it can hang up sometimes. streaming does rely on your network, and these services, to be smooth. and they are not perfect. which is the downside. the upside is way higher which is access. and going deep into a music direction with little real world limits. and the performance can be fantastic. too good to be true, really. you lose yourself into the experience.

i am about to add a CD transport in the next day or so, which i do expect to be pretty easy. just an S/PDIF cable, and then a remote and button to push on the Wadax dac. which is easier, but not much. i'll be mostly playing existing CD's, but finding and acquiring new CD's is lots more work than using streaming to explore. but deciding which to 'like more' is personal.

on the digital side, Roon allows for great choices of approaching the music catalogue, and will offer relevant choices including your file library. and you can go into 'focus' in your library and sort choices in a multitude of ways. and of course, build playlists. as well as with Tidal, set up a 'feed' into an active playlist based on your personal listening algorithm that grows. and even share playlists with other users.

every Friday Quboz and Tidal offer a dozen or so new musical choices so it's a natural process to sample these offerings and get in the habit of expanding your viewpoint. also; anytime you see any reference to any music, it's super easy to go to Roon and hear it right now. which is addicting.

so you can evolve your approaches.

for me i don't think abut this much. the network is something i know from time to time i will experiment to see if there is more, but it's a small worry. people offer to send me stuff to try, and it's pretty easy to do that so i will.

ask me in a month how i view adding CD spinning to my musical journey. i am excited about hearing discs i've not listened to in years, and a few i have sitting here i've never heard yet. where will that go to? don't yet know.

It’s great the Wadax experience has worked out so well for you Mike… am sure there’ll be plenty of interest in your thoughts with Wadax Studio when you eventually get a chance to audition that as well… I’m certainly subscribed.

Computer based audio is such a highly variable experience but it is getting easier (in ways) and for people who have gone through the process and have built up a deal of experience its less challenging than for someone just launching out... especially if you’re on a budget and not in a highly supported environment more typical with the premium end. Like many I’ve invested many years getting more comfortable and familiar with it and happily eventually getting better at making it work for me as well

But I’d guess for the newby (especially for those with less than solid levels of digital literacy) navigating all the potential choices in gear and in system setup and peripherals and options on tweaking and ongoing operation requirements it is still relatively a good deal less straight forward or intuitive in comparison to typical CD based digital for those more used to the more broadly plug and play nature of CD operation… but definitely once well setup the access to music in streaming is more convenient than with CD and very immediate and a great reward in opening up to a world of new music as well.

 

[mtemur]

Its impossible to overdamp something of vibration. If you encounter this, its because the damping system employed isn't effective at all frequencies. Due to how the ear perceives tonality, if you kill high frequency vibration but not the lows, the result may well sound 'dead'. Once you get an effective damping system that covers the entire bandwidth, you'll find this phenomena goes away. What's left is the music!

Music isa complex sound and sound is a vibration too. How will you be sure that vibration damping mechanism is killing all the vibrations but not harming vibration that produce music? How can you be sure a platter mat is able to kill all the vibrations and doesn’t affect stylus reading vibrations -which are actually music- inside the grooves? What are those vibrations that platter mat kills, where do they come from?

BTW I didn’t ask these questions for you to answer. I hope you think about those.

 

[Atmasphere]

Music isa complex sound and sound is a vibration too. How will you be sure that vibration damping mechanism is killing all the vibrations but not harming vibration that produce music? How can you be sure a platter mat is able to kill all the vibrations and doesn’t affect stylus reading vibrations -which are actually music- inside the grooves? What are those vibrations that platter mat kills, where do they come from?

BTW I didn’t ask these questions for you to answer. I hope you think about those.

Whether you wish the answer or not, its actually simple. The media carries the signal but is not the signal itself. So the more its damped, the easier the signal can be properly transduced by the pickup.

The vibration comes from the vinyl resonating to the stylus tracking the groove, plus airborne vibration induced into the platter as well as vibration induced into the platter by the drive. If the vinyl is not resonating, the stylus only transduces the signal in the groove without the extra junk (which is essentially noise and distortion). This is not only easy to hear in terms of sound quality, its also easy to measure. One simple measure is how loud the stylus tracking the groove really is- so when the volume is all the way down yet you can hear the stylus tracking the LP with ease from a foot or two away, you know you have a problem! You can also measure lower distortion if you are playing back a sine wave. So there's no downside to this, other than perhaps the motor drive and/or suspension of the turntable is unable to handle the extra weight of a proper platter pad.

 

[mtemur]

The media carries the signal but is not the signal itself. So the more its damped, the easier the signal can be properly transduced by the pickup.

Not complete. You cannot separate vinyl from stylus, cantilever and cartridge. they're in direct contact. When you damp one (in this case over-damp vinyl which you claim it cannot be over-damp) all will be damped.

The vibration comes from the vinyl resonating to the stylus tracking the groove, plus airborne vibration induced into the platter as well as vibration induced into the platter by the drive. If the vinyl is not resonating, the stylus only transduces the signal in the groove without the extra junk (which is essentially noise and distortion). This is not only easy to hear in terms of sound quality, its also easy to measure. One simple measure is how loud the stylus tracking the groove really is- so when the volume is all the way down yet you can hear the stylus tracking the LP with ease from a foot or two away, you know you have a problem! You can also measure lower distortion if you are playing back a sine wave. So there's no downside to this, other than perhaps the motor drive and/or suspension of the turntable is unable to handle the extra weight of a proper platter pad.

You say that stylus in the groove causes vibration on vinyl, so you accept that vinyl and stylus are in direct contact with each other. They affect each other. And how will you be sure that the pad (or mat) or any other vibration method is totally eliminating vibrations on the vinyl but no effect on directly connected stylus/cartridge? Simple answer you can't.

The key is isolation not damping. I hope this helps.

 

[Atmasphere]

Not complete. You cannot separate vinyl from stylus, cantilever and cartridge. they're in direct contact. When you damp one (in this case over-damp vinyl which you claim it cannot be over-damp) all will be damped.


You say that stylus in the groove causes vibration on vinyl, so you accept that vinyl and stylus are in direct contact with each other. They affect each other. And how will you be sure that the pad (or mat) or any other vibration method is totally eliminating vibrations on the vinyl but no effect on directly connected stylus/cartridge? Simple answer you can't.

The key is isolation not damping. I hope this helps.

We may have to simply disagree. Where your argument falls apart is the the vinyl should affect the stylus but not vice versa. The effect damping the LP has on the stylus and the resulting signal is there is less noise and less distortion. Bandwidth is improved at both ends of the spectrum. So not only can we easily hear the improvement gained, its also quite measurable. I recommend you try it yourself.

A friend of mine who now works at ARC spent about 5 years developing a platter pad about 35-40 years ago. He has extensive background in damping (developed the Sumiko Analog Survival Kit as well as the Ultra Resolution Technologies damping platform and those damping rings ARC uses on their tubes) as he worked for a while with an aerospace firm in California. And also obviously is an audiophile...

Anyway, once his platter pad was actually perfected and produced (in very small quantities) we found that it really didn't matter the turntable; if it could run with the platter pad (which weighs about 5 pounds) it would sound better than any turntable that didn't have it. Again this was not only immediately (not subtly) audible but quite measurable too (distortion was lower at any frequency). So I'm inclined to go with my experience and the measurements on this one, and in addition I'll also point out that your comments fly in the face of the theory and my experience mastering LPs.

 

[Lagonda]

We may have to simply disagree. Where your argument falls apart is the the vinyl should affect the stylus but not vice versa. The effect damping the LP has on the stylus and the resulting signal is there is less noise and less distortion. Bandwidth is improved at both ends of the spectrum. So not only can we easily hear the improvement gained, its also quite measurable. I recommend you try it yourself.

A friend of mine who now works at ARC spent about 5 years developing a platter pad about 35-40 years ago. He has extensive background in damping (developed the Sumiko Analog Survival Kit as well as the Ultra Resolution Technologies damping platform and those damping rings ARC uses on their tubes) as he worked for a while with an aerospace firm in California. And also obviously is an audiophile...

Anyway, once his platter pad was actually perfected and produced (in very small quantities) we found that it really didn't matter the turntable; if it could run with the platter pad (which weighs about 5 pounds) it would sound better than any turntable that didn't have it. Again this was not only immediately (not subtly) audible but quite measurable too (distortion was lower at any frequency). So I'm inclined to go with my experience and the measurements on this one, and in addition I'll also point out that your comments fly in the face of the theory and my experience mastering LPs.

Surprising that the platter mat did not become a commercial success, if it was that good.

 

[Atmasphere]

Surprising that the platter mat did not become a commercial success, if it was that good.

To my understanding, one of the ingredients became unavailable before more than about 20 or 30 could be made.

Turns out though that acrylic can be of various durometer; back in those days it was always to hard to damp vinyl correctly. But Oracle has been making an acrylic pad that's a bit softer and it is IMO one of the best currently available. We've used it for years on our model 208 turntables.

 

[mtemur]

Where your argument falls apart is the the vinyl should affect the stylus but not vice versa.

Why? Since they're in direct contact why wouldn't vinyl effect stylus when stylus can effect vinyl?

As you go up the ladder of turntables you notice most of them don't use a platter mat or use integrated mats of harder materials. If damping had been the key we all would be using sand pools under our turntables.

 

[PeterA]

Its impossible to overdamp something of vibration. If you encounter this, its because the damping system employed isn't effective at all frequencies. Due to how the ear perceives tonality, if you kill high frequency vibration but not the lows, the result may well sound 'dead'. Once you get an effective damping system that covers the entire bandwidth, you'll find this phenomena goes away. What's left is the music!

That depends entirely on the recording!

Ralph, do you have an opinion on the sound of thin vinyl versus thick vinyl if all else is equal? Do different thicknesses of vinyl have different damping properties, and are different frequencies affected equally with different thickness vinyl formulations?

I tend to like original or early pressings over later thicker vinyl releases. They seem to have more life to them and sound less dull to me, in general.

I would think that the thicker the vinyl is, the more damped it is.

 

[Atmasphere]

Why? Since they're in direct contact why wouldn't vinyl effect stylus when stylus can effect vinyl?

As you go up the ladder of turntables you notice most of them don't use a platter mat or use integrated mats of harder materials. If damping had been the key we all would be using sand pools under our turntables.

As to your 'why' I answered above. Please reread my response- no need to repeat myself. I've read more than once or twice that damping is one of the key ingredients missing from older machines.

I contest that you are actually going 'up the ladder of turntables' just because they might be more expensive! High end audio is not driven by price, its driven by intention. So you can have a really expensive turntable that does not exceed the performance of a Technics SL1200G and in practice that seems to be pretty common. I've noticed that a lot of products in high end audio are not created by engineers so much as by audiophiles. Some have education and are familiar with engineering principles so have good products and others went to the school of by gosh and by golly...

In the end, you will find that you can't gaslight me on this one. No offense meant but I take my training, experience and measurement any day over what someone tries to tell me on the internet. The measurement side of this BTW is very repeatable and if you get it right the improvement its very audible. I can't think of why anyone would resist that!

Ralph, do you have an opinion on the sound of thin vinyl versus thick vinyl if all else is equal? Do different thicknesses of vinyl have different damping properties, and are different frequencies affected equally with different thickness vinyl formulations?

I tend to like original or early pressings over later thicker vinyl releases. They seem to have more life to them and sound less dull to me, in general.

I don't like the thin stuff but if your platter pad is up to snuff (and you use a decent clamp) then it makes almost no difference. If the platter pad isn't up to snuff the various thicknesses are more audible. I'm glad Dynaflex was short-lived. I'm sure this is why the old Decca 'pancakes' are more desirable... I don't mind getting colored vinyl as its often a first release but it seems that black vinyl holds up better.

Earlier releases do have more life- that's not just you! The mother that created the stamper has less wear and/or the master tape was new; that makes for a more vivacious recording. I mentioned this earlier but even if you hate vinyl, if you are ardent about older performances (which often carry more of the composer's intent in the case of some classical recordings since the conductor may well have known the composer) the best way to hear this is the original pressing of the LP.