Do we hear differently?
- Thread starter FrantzM
- Start date
Yes & what I draw as a conclusion from this is that we evaluate soundscapes in a much more complex manner than the simplistic models of frequency analysis would lead us to conclude. For instance we can almost immediately know the emotional state of someone we know at the other end of a phone (not an audiophile piece of equipment) & this is not a concious analysis but something that pops into our conciousness. This, I believe, is the flaw/weakness of DBTs - there is more being assimilated in listening than frequency analysis. It also points to the big weakness as I see it, in audio design - the temporal domain.
To conclude, as some do, that we know the full acoustic model of how the ear works (not the auditory cortex) is flawed, I believe - this is still an active area of research & therefore in flux. Indeed, if we fully & correctly utilised some of the current knowledge of how the ear worked we might have different audio systems. For instance the use of digital interpolation filters that create pre-echoes would not be as prevalent !
If I understand what your criticism is (it would be better to spell it out), then I will try to explain what I mean - DBTs require us to focus & concentrate in an analytic way to try identify differences - this is not the sort of listening that gives rise to the knowledge of emotional state that I gave an example of. So by their very nature, DBTs, (if applied in the way I have stated), override or subsume this whole elemental function of the listening process to focus on the analytic part.
If what you are calling an "exemple of a non sequitur" is the final part about temporal domain, then again let me explain. What is the extra information that allows us to pick up on the emotional state of the speaker over a telephone or the recognition of their voice when they have a cold/flu or blocked nose, or in the different room examples given - I'm surmising that it's not the frequency domain data as this will be totally different in all these examples - it has to be something else! I surmise that it's the intonation, inflection, timing of the audio signal - the temporal information. If you have a different explanation, I would be interested in hearing it
The brain is mysterious.
My son has something called dygraphia.
His handwriting looks like a ransom note.
I was talking to a neuro-psychologist about it and I made what I thought was a pithy comment.
I said, "he draws beautifully. If he can control the pencil when he draws, he ought to have better penmanship."
Neuro-psych corrected me. "seems that way, but actually, handwriting is controlled by a different part of the brain, so the two
seem connected but they actually are not."
Another example, my son scores in the 98th percentile in reading comprehension when he is untimed. When they give him a time limit
and he feels pressured, he drops to the 52 percentile.
Writing and drawing seem like similar activities. Reading with no time limit and reading with a time limit seem like the exact same activity.
However, his brain responds quite differently to these similar activities.
Listening for pleasure and listening while being subjected to a double blind test seem like the exact same activity.
But, are they?
I wonder.
Love to see a study with brain scans while listening to music for pleasure and listening while being tested.
On another note, I used to read an audio site where customers wrote reviews and I noticed a curious phenomenon.
Move up components routinely received 5 stars. These are the components people commonly buy when they move up from
low end to mid-fi, bang for the buck type stuff. In other words, people were generally ecstatic about moving from low end stuff
to, say, a Home Theater receiver.
But, as you moved up the food chain, you'd start seeing these extremely negative reviews. I remember specifically one
guy claiming that Mark Levinson amps were painful to his ears and that they were so bad, he couldn't listen to them.
Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here. I think that as you move up the food chain and get into mono-block amps
that retail for $7,000+ apiece, it can become very stressful for some folks. I believe audio enthusiasts can have preferences
for one type of component over another and some types can be controversial, but I have a hard time understanding such
a pattern of extreme negative reaction to various high end gear unless it is the emotional factor due to auditioning gear
with a high price tag.
A stress reaction makes sense. It would be evolutionarily valuable to have certain senses become more acute when stressed.
When stressed, a survival advantage would be gained by becoming more sensitive to certain frequencies and dulled to others.
But, it would a crappy way to listen to music.
I've often suspected that this is part of the "break in" phenomenon. You bring home a piece of high end gear for which you paid
big $$ and you have extremely high expectations, which brings on stress. As you make peace with the fact that the money is gone
and you're going to keep the gear, stress goes away and voila -- your system sounds better. Damn -- it broke in!
Finally, this is why I've always believed that if you want to prove there is an audible difference, a DBT absolutely proves it.
Failing a DBT doesn't necessarily disprove it. It just means no difference was proven.
But, we tend to be binary beings. We want black or white, A or B.
On the other hand, for a lot of other reasons, most importantly expectation bias and placebo effect, anecdotal
accounts are not trustworthy as proof, either.
So, we're stuck with some gray area.
Do we hear differently? Absolutely. In fact, the same person can hear differently spending on many factors;
stress, barometric pressure, time of day, etc. etc.
My son has something called dygraphia.
His handwriting looks like a ransom note.
I was talking to a neuro-psychologist about it and I made what I thought was a pithy comment.
I said, "he draws beautifully. If he can control the pencil when he draws, he ought to have better penmanship."
Neuro-psych corrected me. "seems that way, but actually, handwriting is controlled by a different part of the brain, so the two
seem connected but they actually are not."
Another example, my son scores in the 98th percentile in reading comprehension when he is untimed. When they give him a time limit
and he feels pressured, he drops to the 52 percentile.
Writing and drawing seem like similar activities. Reading with no time limit and reading with a time limit seem like the exact same activity.
However, his brain responds quite differently to these similar activities.
Listening for pleasure and listening while being subjected to a double blind test seem like the exact same activity.
But, are they?
I wonder.
Love to see a study with brain scans while listening to music for pleasure and listening while being tested.
On another note, I used to read an audio site where customers wrote reviews and I noticed a curious phenomenon.
Move up components routinely received 5 stars. These are the components people commonly buy when they move up from
low end to mid-fi, bang for the buck type stuff. In other words, people were generally ecstatic about moving from low end stuff
to, say, a Home Theater receiver.
But, as you moved up the food chain, you'd start seeing these extremely negative reviews. I remember specifically one
guy claiming that Mark Levinson amps were painful to his ears and that they were so bad, he couldn't listen to them.
Okay, I am going to go out on a limb here. I think that as you move up the food chain and get into mono-block amps
that retail for $7,000+ apiece, it can become very stressful for some folks. I believe audio enthusiasts can have preferences
for one type of component over another and some types can be controversial, but I have a hard time understanding such
a pattern of extreme negative reaction to various high end gear unless it is the emotional factor due to auditioning gear
with a high price tag.
A stress reaction makes sense. It would be evolutionarily valuable to have certain senses become more acute when stressed.
When stressed, a survival advantage would be gained by becoming more sensitive to certain frequencies and dulled to others.
But, it would a crappy way to listen to music.
I've often suspected that this is part of the "break in" phenomenon. You bring home a piece of high end gear for which you paid
big $$ and you have extremely high expectations, which brings on stress. As you make peace with the fact that the money is gone
and you're going to keep the gear, stress goes away and voila -- your system sounds better. Damn -- it broke in!
Finally, this is why I've always believed that if you want to prove there is an audible difference, a DBT absolutely proves it.
Failing a DBT doesn't necessarily disprove it. It just means no difference was proven.
But, we tend to be binary beings. We want black or white, A or B.
On the other hand, for a lot of other reasons, most importantly expectation bias and placebo effect, anecdotal
accounts are not trustworthy as proof, either.
So, we're stuck with some gray area.
Do we hear differently? Absolutely. In fact, the same person can hear differently spending on many factors;
stress, barometric pressure, time of day, etc. etc.
We all know the McGurk effect, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
This proves that we can hear differently depending on certain factors. But all those not looking will hear "Ba" & all those looking will hear "Fa" (I think there are some exceptions to this though). Also we should be careful not to extrapolate this any further without some evidence or experimental proof
I don't think there is any data on this. Unless one is instructed (as by a salesman) to listen to some specific aspect of the sound, the mind will latch on to whatever it finds interesting, outstanding or correlatible in any listening experience. Emotional state is uncontrolled, as well.
I do not have a different explanation but, I think, "temporal domain" is too vague for an explanation.
DBT doesn't follow from these examples ...
To nitpick if your nose is stuffy your voice spectrum changes, this is frequency domain analysis again .. It is always being performed often unconsciously, that but also temporal analysis (which is somewhat difficult to completely separate from the frequency domain analysis) The physical cues leads to recognize them and construct in your brain as emotion, they must first be perceived ... at the physical level before being translated by the brain as emotions ... in DBT you are asked to hear, see or smell, feel , etc differences .. Either you find differences or you don't .. It simply cut it ... The fact that you didn't hear, smell, see or feel any differences doesn't mean there aren't any simply that you couldn't perceive...
You have to wonder then why when you open your eyes and know which component is in the chain you start hearing those "vast", "night and day", "massive" differences ... Just wonder ... then you can go enjoy your equipment especially when you paid a large amount for it ...by the way I haven't used DBT for any of the component I had, I am currently using or will use in the future. I became convinced of its validity as a tool in Audio to weed out some views that I held for along time.. I documented this in my WBF introduction ..
DBT is not an easy test to conduct, impossible for most people truly but it would be an education for many to simply remove the knowledge once in a while, this may save them some cash, it has done that for me as well as made me more focused on the music than before ...
Maybe you are correct but people naturally look for differences when auditioning two pieces of equipment. Does this kick them into the analysis mind-set?
I agree it's vague but is is just a pointer in a direction rather than something more specific!
...and fascinating.
There are many parameters involved here. First, there are basic motor control mechanisms which, in your son's situation, appear to be intact. Then, there are the operations that formulate the complex patterns used for different tasks including locomotion, manipulation, writing and drawing. Finally, there are the cognitive operations that encode the content/goals of the task. All these use different but, often, overlapping portions of the brain. One result is the observation that a seemingly well-coordinated individual cannot perform a particular task well or at all even though he/she can use the same limb/muscles to perform other tasks. Language (perception and expression) is among the most complex and interesting group of functions.
See above.
When there is an imposed constraint, possible unconscious emotional issues may be revealing a link to his writing problems.
I cannot say but I would not think so aside from the additional stress involved.
Listening to music for pleasure while in an MRI seems, to me, an impossible task.
I've done it! Takes your mind away from claustrophobeia. 20-30 minutes goes by pretty fast.
Yea, me too - it does relieve boredom also! It wasn't a brain scan however, so no interesting correlations
More like, 'Lost of your senses', Kal. :b
* We have Five senses (human senses); no more. :b
...More is only in the Movies: 'The Sixth Sense'; "I see dead people." ...For example. :b
The thing is Jkeny, I don't trust my senses .. They tend to lie to me too much ... But in the real world that is close to what I do ...
The brain is mysterious...
Yes indeed.
I listened to The Beatles while in there with all that Jazz goin' on. :b
...Can't say that I was relaxing, but it was fun and pleasurable nonetheless. :b
Yes indeed.
I listened to The Beatles while in there with all that Jazz goin' on. :b
...Can't say that I was relaxing, but it was fun and pleasurable nonetheless. :b
I'm glad you are able to deal with the real world while also carrying this burden of distrust
Yea, me too - it does relieve boredom also! It wasn't a brain scan however, so no interesting correlations
I've done it too, course quite difficult when it actually starts to scan. Noisy as hell. If that ever came out of my system at home or under test I would run for cover.
Similar threads
