Do we use our ears?
- Thread starter DaveyF
- Start date
Odin and Mike L. - You guys are really in a different discussion here, aren't you? Maybe another thread that addresses the failings, real or perceived, of 2 channel audio?
On the question whether one listens before one buys, I'm not sure anything short of an in-home trial, with an informed set-up, would be meaningful (assuming the equipment in question is already broken-in and if it's not, is the dealer going to expect/permit you to keep the equipment for a prolonged period with an absolute right to return it?) Short of that, listening to a piece of equipment in a dealership is not going to be very meaningful, aside from differences in room acoustics. Look at that other thread, where the guys went to Arizona to visit a dealer and couldn't listen to very expensive speakers under optimal conditions (and I'm not dumping on that dealer here, he was in the process of revamping his rooms); the related equipment is not the same as yours in many cases. And, how many times can you find a dealer who carries all the product lines that are relevant to your system? Not easy. My experience on buying equipment without having heard it first in my system is mixed: I took the Lamm ML2 knowing alot about how complementary they would be to the Avantgardes- I suppose I could have returned them, and the line stage, if I didn't like them. Ditto on the Steelhead, which I kept for quite a while, but just recently sold. I did hear my actual turntable before it got delivered to my house, but frankly, apart from the fact that it seemed quiet and made the dealer's system sound good, that wasn't terribly informative.
On the question whether one listens before one buys, I'm not sure anything short of an in-home trial, with an informed set-up, would be meaningful (assuming the equipment in question is already broken-in and if it's not, is the dealer going to expect/permit you to keep the equipment for a prolonged period with an absolute right to return it?) Short of that, listening to a piece of equipment in a dealership is not going to be very meaningful, aside from differences in room acoustics. Look at that other thread, where the guys went to Arizona to visit a dealer and couldn't listen to very expensive speakers under optimal conditions (and I'm not dumping on that dealer here, he was in the process of revamping his rooms); the related equipment is not the same as yours in many cases. And, how many times can you find a dealer who carries all the product lines that are relevant to your system? Not easy. My experience on buying equipment without having heard it first in my system is mixed: I took the Lamm ML2 knowing alot about how complementary they would be to the Avantgardes- I suppose I could have returned them, and the line stage, if I didn't like them. Ditto on the Steelhead, which I kept for quite a while, but just recently sold. I did hear my actual turntable before it got delivered to my house, but frankly, apart from the fact that it seemed quiet and made the dealer's system sound good, that wasn't terribly informative.
I would be very interested in that topic and have some data to share
. Who wants to take the lead?
here you mention 'cheap surround systems' .......multi-channel. you infer that these type systems have a better center image than 2-channel.
what other impression should we have?
you call 2-channel stereo a joke, and now you can't imagine what got our dander up. i made no characterizations about your listening habits. i asked about your methods of investigation......tell us about the system where you came up with this conclusion that has touched the nerve of many so we can understand.
Same here 980 after a 970. Fine for movies, excellent actually, IMHO, but OTOH audio(Redbook, HiRes) was a big disappointment. Belied their pricepoint, again IMHO. Oppo obviously felt the same as the later models improved in that area and discontinued the earlier entry level models pretty quickly.
i think when someone invalidates in a general sense the thing we are speaking about (2-channel stereo listening) it's on topic on whether we use our ears to make gear decisions. if that type listening is a joke, then these decisions are not valid.
post #9 is my answer to how i use my ears to make gear decisons, and times i have not, and why.
i'll wait until i see how Soundproof answers my question about his listening environment before i proceed with any other discussion. if we have zero common ground the result is 100% predictable. it will end up with references to Harmon, a bunch of graphs, and other such typical nonsense.
i'd rather get a root canal.
It's funny that when I've heard equipment that supports a middle, third channel, as was originally intended to be, the images on the outside and back of the stage seem to suffer. That experience came from using the Cayin preamplifier based on 60s design (I think it was Mc) where the two channels are mono'd for the middle third channel.
Now I don't doubt that if we could say play back a third channel using a three track tape, we'd hear a lot of other improvements including less phasiness, and more solid middle channel.
But it doesn't make two channel, center image a joke.
IMHO, most of the time the experience at the dealer will be nice to show you some of the capabilities of the product but will not show you how it will sound in your place and system.
Perhaps if you listen to an all Burmester system
and take it all you will have some previous assurance of the final result, but choosing after listening for short times in a shop to individual pieces is almost a lottery. A good dealer , some experience and proper advise can help to win the prize. If you accept to cheat in this game, than you can acoustically treat the room before bringing new equipment!
I'm not sure that "pre-programmed expectations" is getting your point across (also it's getting confused with expectation biases).
What I think is being lost in the translation is more of an interpolation. That's why I think that tape is the best medium since it has the highest level of information density and the brain doesn't have to work as hard. And that work is a limited resource (just like self control) and after a while the brain becomes fatigued.
In other words, our brain is able to fill in the missing information. If you read the book The Happiness Hypothesis, the author goes into explaining how a part of our brain works as a lawyer, filling in or even making up information for the particular circumstance. I think that musicians experience this the most, given their day to day living with music and sound.
Or maybe I have it wrong.
I agree with Whart 100% This same topic has come up before and I have answered it before. I live in BFI and I don’t have high-end dealers close to where I live. And as Whart explained so well, hearing a component at a store is not the same as spending time with it in your house in your system. I normally buy used gear and try to buy from the original owner who has the original boxes, manuals, remote, etc. so in case I don’t like it, I can resell it and come close to making all my money back. I bought my speakers new, I bought my current tonearm new, I bought my cartridge new, and I bought my MIT cables new. My amps and preamps were all bought used.
And as much as some people don’t want to believe it, audio gear has become more transparent over time. Better passive parts continue to evolve which leads to improvements in sound quality in well-designed circuits.
...Who here buys or has bought gear without first hearing it in their system....and why?
Results?
To me, the most important thing is music, although things do come into my system from time to time. Either, I have heard them, or my friends made them. Generally speaking, I am happy for quite awhile after that, but then someone comes along with a genuine advancement of some sort that I can't resist. Some vintage pieces are here to stay, not that there isn't better someplace, but simply because I cannot afford those pieces, or I cannot warrant the extra expense for a marginal improvement.
I admit that being a manufacturer has jaded me somewhat because I often have inside information as to how some of the new products are made, regardless of price. Many are rehashes of the past with fancy covers and others are hype driven. Also, I am unimpressed by bling to the point that I abhor anything that is gold plated. Further, I am a minimalist who tries to perfect my system by reducing the number of items in it, rather than filling a big rack. Too many knobs only confuse me. So far, I have managed to dispense with the linestage and everything digital. If I could only devise a way to make a record spin around by itself!
Hello Andre
Maybe you should try low end multichannel instead
A myth?? Your kidding right. You live in a world that doesn't envelop you with sounds coming from 360 degrees in all three axes?? I will remember that the next time I am in the woods and hear a cardinal to the right a chipmunk in the brush behind me and low and the wind over my head in the trees. If you don't see that as any and all directions I don't know what to think.
Rob
Yes, this binaural effect is how we localise sounds & what gives us the 3D soundfield that we are surrounded by on a daily basis. Interestingly, this is also related to the cocktail party effect where we have the ability to focus on one particular sound stream among other sounds i.e a conversation in a noisy party. This has also been shown to be something that we are less able to do as we age.
Ok, since we are going with the topic within the topic, I'll relate an experience. Years ago, I used to frequent a record store in Los Angeles. I think it was the Record Collector on Highland Avenue in Hollywood. Anyway, one time I walk in there, and the guy has these two big honking cabinets, like EV Patricians (I honestly don't remember exactly what they were but you get the idea). One was in one room, one in the other. I said to him, "you know, your stereo image is really being compromised by that set up?" He laughed, "Stereo? That's a gimmick!"
At the time, I thought he was just being contrary.
Now, I sorta get it.
Back to our regular program
At the time, I thought he was just being contrary.
Now, I sorta get it.
Back to our regular program
Hey Rob: You may be right about cheap surround!
No I am not kidding. You THINK you are hearing something behind you but you are hearing it right or left and your brain is helping you localize the sound. It is something we learn early on and is quite amazing.
Hello Andre
Maybe you should try low end multichannel instead
A myth?? Your kidding right. You live in a world that doesn't envelop you with sounds coming from 360 degrees in all three axes?? I will remember that the next time I am in the woods and hear a cardinal to the right a chipmunk in the brush behind me and low and the wind over my head in the trees. If you don't see that as any and all directions I don't know what to think.
Rob
No I am not kidding. You THINK you are hearing something behind you but you are hearing it right or left and your brain is helping you localize the sound. It is something we learn early on and is quite amazing.
Oh Tom, get your head out of your engineering books and learn a little bit about neuroscience. You can even discover about the interaction and conflicts in the older and newer brain.
As far as information density, let us all know when you've heard a real master tape. Then you can talk.
Actually I would be hearing in both so I don't get your point. You can't seperate your brain from your ears. They are a system that works together. The natural world is in 3D. So you hear in 3D.
When the bear is sneaking up on ya because he smells your jelly donut and you hear him behind you don't turn around. Just look forward left or right because you can't trust your ears to tell you where he is. Don't worry if you can't see him he really isn't there.
I am never hiking with you
Rob
