Do we use our ears?

actually i would be hearing in both so i don't get your point. You can't seperate your brain from your ears. They are a system that works together. The natural world is in 3d. So you hear in 3d.

When the bear is sneaking up on ya because he smells your jelly donut and you hear him behind you don't turn around. Just look forward left or right because you can't trust your ears to tell you where he is. Don't worry if you can't see him he really isn't there.

I am never hiking with you;)

rob:)

lol!
 
Oh yeah, forgot, its magic. Its not explainable. Its information density. I am not sure what neuroscience has to do with magnetic particles on a tape though.

You have heard real master tapes...why dont you educate us a bit, I doubt I will be hearing a master tape anytime soon Myles.

Tom

Tom stop answering a question with a question. You and Tim's are masters. It's getting rather old and tedious.

Pardon me, weren't we talking about information density? If you think the brain is simply a computer, you're sadly wrong.

And yes I have not only had the pleasure of hearing some master tapes but own several. Since you've never heard any, then I don't understand how you can comment on their sound.
 
I think...

I think...you are actually agreeing with me...but, er, what ever.

Yes, do not hike with me! You will either get eaten by a Mountain Lion or worse! ;)

Actually I would be hearing in both so I don't get your point. You can't seperate your brain from your ears. They are a system that works together. The natural world is in 3D. So you hear in 3D.

When the bear is sneaking up on ya because he smells your jelly donut and you hear him behind you don't turn around. Just look forward left or right because you can't trust your ears to tell you where he is. Don't worry if you can't see him he really isn't there.

I am never hiking with you;)

Rob:)
 
I think...
I think...you are actually agreeing with me...but, er, what ever.

Hello Andre

Well actually No. You said:

Two channel is not in any way a compromise. There seems to be this myth that we process sound in some sort of 360 degree manner.

We most definitely do process sound in a 360 degree manner. We would not be here if we didn't, easy pickins for lions, tigers and bears. That's the only point I took exception too. Not everyone likes Multichannel or Stereo . I like both and mono too, each has it's strengths and weaknesses. The music is more important than the format same for MP3 vs Lossless whatever it is available in works just fine compared to not having it.

Rob:)
 
I think that the discussion about whether we use our ears ( and brains) to hear in 360 is interesting, BUT for some unknown reason I cannot see what this has to do with my OP.

So, back on topic. The first and last time I bought a piece of gear without hearing it in my system first was my headphone amp, which was HIGHLY recommended by ST in S'phile. Anyhow, that was a mistake as I now know that ST has cotton wool in his ears.:(
 
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I just bought a DAC+AMP online knowing for sure it would not sound good. That's because I bought with the intention of modding it - by replacing the DAC and hoping the interface and power supply parts would turn out to be serviceable. So I'll often buy based only on internal pics which show which bits I'm getting for my money because it saves time over building from scratch. Bricolage I call it :D
 
I have slept a few hours through a wonderful summer night here. We get these glorious endless days at this time of year. Birds begin singing at 3 in the morning.
And I wake up to a thread on fire.

I believe it's tomelex in here who has suggested that people should listen to mono exclusively for a while, and then switch to 2-channel stereo. The latter is the absolutely least number of units required to create a poor-man's version of the real thing that happened in front of the microphones (note the plural). The inventors of stereo, the first engineers, producers and artists, considered 2-channel to be the pits, just barely better than Duophonic. (Electronically rechanneled, indeed.)
The fact that we're satisfied with its meagre output relative to the real thing, doesn't mean that it is the best solution possible.

Mr. Lavigne wants me to list what I've listened to, through the years. Some really extravagant set-ups, in fact. I've had the pleasure of spending more hours than I care to count mixing soundtracks to commercials, in custom designed listening environments with top-of-the-line speakers and a balanced 3-channel front. The latter was great for playing music through - something I've even done from the same 35mm magnetic film that was used by, among others, Everest and Command. As I worked in many countries, I've had the pleasure of working in many great such rooms, and even of listening to a large number of excellent high-end systems.
I have a dedicated wooden walled and floored listening room now, though it's not treated, and a number of different speaker configurations have sortied in front of my eager ears. Presently, I'm enjoying the sound of a pair of Helsinki Gradients, which are astonishing - next in line are speakers from German Physiks.
But Lavigne's question is irrelevant, I should think.

I will point out that his claiming I championed multi-channel is moot. He should reread that opening sentence in my first post - which relates to whether we listen with our ears or with our minds, which is relevant to the OP's question. I just pointed out that when we listen to 2-channel, we are actually listening to a phantom center that is derided by the providers of even the cheapest surround set-up, I didn't say we should go for one of the latter. It's just a damn shame that we didn't have the technology to make 3-channel inexpensively available when stereo was born.

That said - I have been in 2L's mixing room, walking around inside a 5-channel rendition of Trondheimsolistene. And that's the best electronically recreated stereo (solid) music image I have ever listened to, outside a concert hall. Unfortunately, it's quite a stretch to believe that customers are going to dedicate the space and speaker array to be able to recreate that in significant numbers.

Is 2-channel stereo a joke? Small sweetspot, swimming image, unreal soundstage - our brain is working to create the trick, not the performance.

(Ordinarily, one reads that "stereo will never be able to approximate the real thing." This thread exempted, I understand.)
 
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I have slept a few hours through a wonderful summer night here. We get these glorious endless days at this time of year. Birds begin singing at 3 in the morning.
And I wake up to a thread on fire.

I believe it's tomelex in here who has suggested that people should listen to mono exclusively for a while, and then switch to 2-channel stereo. The latter is the absolutely least number of units required to create a poor-man's version of the real thing that happened in front of the microphones (note the plural). The inventors of stereo, the first engineers, producers and artists, considered 2-channel to be the pits, just barely better than Duophonic. (Electronically rechanneled, indeed.)
The fact that we're satisfied with its meagre output relative to the real thing, doesn't mean that it is the best solution possible.

Mr. Lavigne wants me to list what I've listened to, through the years. Some really extravagant set-ups, in fact. I've had the pleasure of spending more hours than I care to count mixing soundtracks to commercials, in custom designed listening environments with top-of-the-line speakers and a balanced 3-channel front. The latter was great for playing music through - something I've even done from the same 35mm magnetic film that was used by, among others, Everest and Command. As I worked in many countries, I've had the pleasure of working in many great such rooms, and even of listening to a large number of excellent high-end systems.
I have a dedicated wooden walled and floored listening room now, though it's not treated, and a number of different speaker configurations have sortied in front of my eager ears. Presently, I'm enjoying the sound of a pair of Helsinki Gradients, which are astonishing my eager ears - next in line are speakers from German Physiks.
But Lavigne's question is irrelevant, I should think.

I will point out that his claiming I championed multi-channel is moot. He should reread that opening sentence in my first post - which relates to whether we listen with our ears or with our minds, which is relevant to the OP's question. I just pointed out that when we listen to 2-channel, we are actually listening to a phantom center that is derided by the providers of even the cheapest surround set-up, I didn't say we should go for one of the latter. It's just a damn shame that we didn't have the technology to make 3-channel inexpensively available when stereo was born.

That said - I have been in 2L's mixing room, walking around inside a 5-channel rendition of Trondheimsolistene. And that's the best electronically recreated stereo (solid) music image I have ever listened to, outside a concert hall. Unfortunately, it's quite a stretch to believe that customers are going to dedicate the space and speaker array to be able to recreate that in significant numbers.

Is 2-channel stereo a joke? Small sweetspot, swimming image, unreal soundstage - our brain is working to create the trick, not the performance.

(Ordinarily, one reads that "stereo will never be able to approximate the real thing." This thread exempted, I understand.)

One, I think that history has shown that the inventors don't always get it right so they're not a reliable judge. For instance, they're often driven by the commercialize tin of their product.

Two, are you saying rechanneled mono is as good as stereo? I rest my point. That was about the commercial aspect, not the sound aspect. Have you ever heard a rechanneled stereo? Absolutely abysmal sounding and worse than the mono!
 
You blasphemed in the temple, Soundproof. Actually, while I don't doubt that early stereo sucked compared to 3 channel, it has come a long way. Properly set-up, speakers that image well create a very believable center. The problem is that it doesn't stay centered if e seating position moves left or right (though I'm sure some can imagine that it does).

In any case, we're off topic and we're not getting 3 channel back...

Tim
 
So, back on topic. The first and last time I bought a piece of gear without hearing it in my system first was my headphone amp, which was HIGHLY recommended by ST in S'phile. Anyhow, that was a mistake as I now know that ST has cotton wool in his ears.

I don't purchase based on professional reviews but have been swayed by people I know. That usualy works out quite well.

A question for all you guys who do lengthy auditions in a store:

What do you think it buys you??

Rob:)
 
Two, are you saying rechanneled mono is as good as stereo? I rest my point. That was about the commercial aspect, not the sound aspect. Have you ever heard a rechanneled stereo? Absolutely abysmal sounding and worse than the mono!

I would think you can choose whatever it is you want to rest - point, case or behind. What I did write was that the original promoters of stereo, the artists, recording engineers and producers, considered 2-channel to be "the poor man's solution," comparable to "lousy rechanneled" duophonic (they probably exaggerated to show their disgust, the way us audiophiles sometimes do). And for the longest time, they held out for commercially viable 3-channel, which we didn't get.

Do we listen with our ears? Sometimes - which is why this guy knew exactly what he wanted in front of him, to recreate music.

sinatra-home.jpg


Do we listen with our pre-conceived notions? Sometimes, which is why this product had a short-lived period of popularity.

STOPLIGHT.JPG
 
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What we seem to fail to admit in this whole discussion is that our 2-channel "stereo" was a compromise because more channels would have been difficult with the technology of the day (1950s). That it provides such good results is almost astonishing..
We hear sounds from discrete sources all around us .. This is how we live.. Music in a live setting has us surrounded by sound .. Replicating this does lead to better reproduction ... I can't comprehend why this provable (intuitive) assertion is met with such resistance :confused:
 
Oh yeah, forgot, its magic. Its not explainable. Its information density. I am not sure what neuroscience has to do with magnetic particles on a tape though.

You have heard real master tapes...why dont you educate us a bit, I doubt I will be hearing a master tape anytime soon Myles.

Tom

Tom,

I had the same opinion as you until I became a subscriber of the Tape Project tapes and rebuilt a Studer A80 to listen to them. Unhappily it is very easy to become wordy or to be taken in enthusiastic verbosity to describe its sound in words. Experience can not be acquired just reading posts. Any one that has not experienced similar feelings when listening to a copy of a good master tape in an adequate system has a legitimate right to doubt of our descriptions and vocabulary.

For me the best description was the enthusiastic reaction of our administrator Steve Williams in Paul Stubblebine Mastering studio listening to a 1" master tape, as he posted in audiogon some time ago and I repeat from time to time with the help of google:

... but in my 38 years involved in this hobby I have just never heard anything as good as this ...NEVER. It was tantamount to being at the symphony and hearing it live. ...


His opinion cost me the price of a subscription and many late hours replacing bearings. But I can now understand why there was something right within his words.
 
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What we seem to fail to admit in this whole discussion is that our 2-channel "stereo" was a compromise because more channels would have been difficult with the technology of the day (1950s). That it provides such good results is almost astonishing..
We hear sounds from discrete sources all around us .. This is how we live.. Music in a live setting has us surrounded by sound .. Replicating this does lead to better reproduction ... I can't comprehend why this provable (intuitive) assertion is met with such resistance :confused:

FrantzM,

Theoretically we would get perfection only with an infinite number of sources. I have no doubts that this resistance is mainly motivated because people report about what they think about current implementations.

I have very little experience with high-end surround systems - just a few demos of top expensive systems at shows and dealers. As they never sounded comparable to my best experiences in stereo, I could happily join
this group who claims for the supremacy of stereo. However, I try to be open minded and believe that the capabilities of surround are better than what I have been exposed, and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with five or seven channels.
 
Any one that has not experienced listening to a copy of a good master tape in an adequate system has a legitimate right to doubt of our descriptions and vocabulary.

I'm going to assume you meant that no one who hasn't heard master tapes has a right to doubt your descriptions. And I'm going to give you the further benefit of the doubt by assuming it was an editing error, not a Freudian slip. Then I'm going to go on to say what complete nonsese. If you were describing the experience as wonderful, marvelous the best sound you have ever experienced...even more life-like (which has little real meaning) than anything you've ever heard, we could not only have no legitimate right to question your experience without experiencing it, it wouldn't matter much if we had. It would still be your opiniion and unassailable.

But when you cross the line and use a term like "information density," those words have specific meanings, and a specific meaning when used together, and a specific meaning as it relates to digital media, and a specific meaning as it relates to analog media, and your specific claim in using those words requires no listening experience at all to be analyzed.

If you don't want people to question your experience, describe your experience without the pseudo science.

Tim
 
I'm not sure I can explain the science of putting sounds on tape, other than in a general way, but isn't the answer to the question why the tape sounds better than the LP as a source easier? Think of all the steps that have to be taken to get the signal from the tape to the LP, from 'mastering,' equalization, including the roll-off to acoomodate the limitations of the LP, the whole cutting process, and my favorite, the pressing process? An LP at best is 'second generation' or worse in this sense, isn't it?
As Mel Brooks once said about the difficulty of producing motion pictures, the hard part is punching all those little holes in the film....
 
I have slept a few hours through a wonderful summer night here. We get these glorious endless days at this time of year. Birds begin singing at 3 in the morning.
And I wake up to a thread on fire.

I believe it's tomelex in here who has suggested that people should listen to mono exclusively for a while, and then switch to 2-channel stereo. The latter is the absolutely least number of units required to create a poor-man's version of the real thing that happened in front of the microphones (note the plural). The inventors of stereo, the first engineers, producers and artists, considered 2-channel to be the pits, just barely better than Duophonic. (Electronically rechanneled, indeed.)
The fact that we're satisfied with its meagre output relative to the real thing, doesn't mean that it is the best solution possible.

on my tt are 2 tonearms, one for a stereo cartridge, and one for a mono cartridge. i have 2 phono cards in my preamp, one for the stereo and one for the mono. i have 500-600 mono pressings. i have many mono pressings where i also have the stereo pressings. there are mono pressings where it brings the whole musical message, and others where it is a poor facsimilie of the stereo. last night i was cleaning some records and cleaned 3 different mono pressings and listened to them. with mono it just depends on the whole process on how well it is done. but it can be wonderful, and the music from the mono era is uniformily excellent.

and you cannot take any 'electronically rechanneled for stereo' seriously. it's all crap. the early guys made some great music. but they did not always appreciate what they had done like we are able to now with current technology.

Mr. Lavigne wants me to list what I've listened to, through the years.

no, i just wanted to understand where you are coming from. i only asked what your reference might be. many here stir the fur but have no credible reference. i've had enough of those back and forths to not want another. it's only for me that i ask. the forum has no such expectation. i'm always curious how a person came to these conclusions. did they read it in a book? watch a youtube video? did their engineering prof tell them that? do i have common ground with this person? where did i go wrong? ideally, i could invite that person to my room, we could listen together, then they could understand me and i them when we describe our perspectives.

Some really extravagant set-ups, in fact. I've had the pleasure of spending more hours than I care to count mixing soundtracks to commercials, in custom designed listening environments with top-of-the-line speakers and a balanced 3-channel front. The latter was great for playing music through - something I've even done from the same 35mm magnetic film that was used by, among others, Everest and Command. As I worked in many countries, I've had the pleasure of working in many great such rooms, and even of listening to a large number of excellent high-end systems.
I have a dedicated wooden walled and floored listening room now, though it's not treated, and a number of different speaker configurations have sortied in front of my eager ears. Presently, I'm enjoying the sound of a pair of Helsinki Gradients, which are astonishing - next in line are speakers from German Physiks.

thank you for explaining about your experiences. the Helsinki Gradients are an interesting speaker. i've heard them at shows and did enjoy them. a very good small room speaker.

ok; so why do you say stereo is a joke?

But Lavigne's question is irrelevant, I should think.

i disagree.

I will point out that his claiming I championed multi-channel is moot. He should reread that opening sentence in my first post - which relates to whether we listen with our ears or with our minds, which is relevant to the OP's question. I just pointed out that when we listen to 2-channel, we are actually listening to a phantom center that is derided by the providers of even the cheapest surround set-up, I didn't say we should go for one of the latter. It's just a damn shame that we didn't have the technology to make 3-channel inexpensively available when stereo was born.

come to my room and show me how the center image is lacking. sure; it's not trivial to get a stereo system to do it's thing. but many systems do it. and your comment that the center image of a quality stereo is derided by the providers of even the cheapest surrround is wrong. and i think you know it. you can't defend that statement, or defend the comment that stereo is a joke.

That said - I have been in 2L's mixing room, walking around inside a 5-channel rendition of Trondheimsolistene. And that's the best electronically recreated stereo (solid) music image I have ever listened to, outside a concert hall. Unfortunately, it's quite a stretch to believe that customers are going to dedicate the space and speaker array to be able to recreate that in significant numbers.

i've done high end surround in a purpose built dedicated room with state of the art surround electronics and sources. it did not measure up to good analog stereo performance.

Is 2-channel stereo a joke? Small sweetspot, swimming image, unreal soundstage - our brain is working to create the trick, not the performance.

again, i question your reference. i get none of what you describe.

(Ordinarily, one reads that "stereo will never be able to approximate the real thing." This thread exempted, I understand.)

neither does multi-channel as it's commonly done approximate the real thing. stereo can do it better because of many factors......not in theory but in practice. that has been my experience. i have heard quad tapes made recently at demos which have come closest to real in my personal expereince. no center channel there either. but the content of each channel was robust and musically complete. where you have an analog surround sound recorded in a natural way. 4 full frequency speakers. but that is not happening commercially so why worry.

stereo is the current champion of uber performance for music listening. the best media is analog 2 channel, the best musical performances are in analog 2-channel. i'm not claiming it is perfect.
 
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I'm going to assume you meant that no one who hasn't heard master tapes has a right to doubt your descriptions. And I'm going to give you the further benefit of the doubt by assuming it was an editing error, not a Freudian slip. Then I'm going to go on to say what complete nonsese. If you were describing the experience as wonderful, marvelous the best sound you have ever experienced...even more life-like (which has little real meaning) than anything you've ever heard, we could not only have no legitimate right to question your experience without experiencing it, it wouldn't matter much if we had. It would still be your opiniion and unassailable.
Tim

Tim,

I perfected my sentence to make it clear - I meant the opposite you are referring. Just meant that any one not feeling the same could question my words, as I have no words that can prove it!
Thanks for being my fast speech corrector! :)
 
Well today, I am getting a lot of heat because some other a'philes are of the opinion that the 'latest is the greatest'.( No big deal, my new flame suit is up to the task:p )Even though some of these same people are still using TT's that were last minted in the 80's, LOL.:eek:
My point....IF you haven't heard the particular combination of gear that I or other a'philes are claiming to be superb, then DON'T knock it because it doesn't fit into your understanding or personal experience of the piece under question.
Are we using our ears in our choice and opinion on gear OR are we simply blowing hard with no real experience of the gear in question. Which leads to my next point, that so much great gear is probably passed up due to NOT using our ears and jumping to conclusions. IMO, this is a trap that we can all easily fall into...:(
 
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Thanks Micro. Just for the record I do not doubt that tape sounds real good. I am just commenting that it does, indeed, not accurately replicate the signals fed to it. It is the "first stop" and thus anything that proceeds from it has to be less accurate. Information density describes to me a richness in odd order harmonics and other effects.....one can make a song sound richer or denser in "music" by sculpting with harmonics, and tape does this by its very nature....

it is not linear
varying noise levels with signal
compression

these are characterisitcs of tape, let alone tape electronics...and all that old tape electronics was some pretty sucky trnasistors and electrolytic capacitors and carbon resistors and bunches of metal to metal connections at the circuit card connections and printed circuit boards and oscillators and poor power suply rejection and all the other "audiophile bad" things....I am just sayin

Tom

And just sayin' Tom that anyone with any druthers dumped those electronics years ago. That's not to mention better heads and improving the tape transport. Oh and not to mention the sound depends upon whether you use the deck vertically or horizontally
 

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