When you say you'll get a more tube influenced sound with a lower vol setting on the Pac (-18 db for example) and a more ss sound with a higher vol setting on the Pac (-10 for example)..... Are you speaking in the context of Steve's tube pre amp? That is, his tube pre-amp gain will have more influence because the Pac vol is set lower? But they are both tube components, so I may not get it.
If my assumption is correct, then would it follow that if one wants to balance a ss integrated amp towards a more tube sound from the Pac, I could experiment with a higher proportion of gain from the Pac?
Sorry, if I'm confused. I'm trying to learn something from you guys!
That’s right and wrong but I know what you mean. I don’t know what the vol method is for sure but guess it’s digital
For its best way to do so
We need to listen more and less theoretical math alone. we don’t hear in bits lol. But as we loose bits on paper do we hear less this is the objective part. But a vol pot is needed to dial in. I use vol in player and dac at times. The goal to go to is analog that has the dynamics of good analog. To just make it calming can be correct or can be making it loose jump in both macro dynamics. Micro can be lost too if we loose to many bits. In the end it’s better to have a sound we love ??
Good discussion guys--Just to chime in with a point of information the volume control on the pacific is NOT handled in the digital realm. It is handled by very high grade resistors in a ladder.
Let me once again state.....I agree completely with the addition of subs, so much so that the work involved for me took months of daily playing and measuring as well as having friends who are very gifted in speaker set up also help .....to no avail. I thought of adding 2 more subs but the reality was the room is just too small and lacks the geographical foot space so that was out.
You can speculate all you want but I have lived with this room for over 6 years now since it was constructed and for the first 3-4 years I had the F113's. I was determined to integrate them in the room and every time we found the spot where the subs produced the best measurements in the room we found that the sub master volume was essentially "off". I had prominent speaker manufacturers in my room as well as recording engineers all of whom told me that the subs in my room were not necessary
I had my friend DDK visit and he too from the very first comment told me to get rid of the subs and when Ked visited he had similar comments. It took me a few more years to think I could prove them wrong. IMO the Fathom subs were just too much in the room. I will grant you that had I used perhaps smaller subs then perhaps a solution would be found however when I finally decided to remove the subs, I initially had them in the room turned off and the sound was better BUT it wasn't until I removed them completely from the room that the sound was superb.
So in theory I agree with sbo6 and micro but in my room the answer was clearly evident, the subs only impact was a negative one. Since I removed them I have never looked back. I have invited micro many times to come visit and stay with me for a while. Hopefully in the future that might happen. Sbo6, the invitation is also there for you
When Mike was here a few days ago he commented specifically as to how much better the bass was now as compared to when he heard it 3 years ago
I am truly a happy camper and remain one step away from my end game.
Hi Steve your issues with the JL-113 subs reminded me of my many trials with my 2 JL-113s and coming to the same end. I had talked and written to Wilson, JL Audio and also REL with advice from all helpful but still not right. I had earlier tried something JL Audio said to do and that was put a big pair of socks in bass ports of the Wilsons and try that way. Wilson had advised not to so I did not spend much time with it. I was going to give up, but on the last email from JL Audio, one of the set-up specialist wrote. If I DO NOT plug the ports I would never be satisfied. He wrote you can think you have it right then on some other music you play you will be jumping up and changing the settings. That hit home more than once.
Well I got serious and after changing phase ( which I had not tried during my half-hearted attempt earlier since it had been obvious the phase was correct without plugging port.) I was shocked at not only having deep and detailed bass but that the bass now enhanced midrange and everything on up, in ways I did not know was possible. I had spent a couple years adjusting settings to no avail other than a little added bass to now bass that has turned me into a bass addict besides being a devout music addict. The other bit of info which made a big difference was from REL. The advise was to have the subs, which had been parallel to the walls in the front corners, come out of the corners in about a 45 degree angle. One at about 49 degree and the other about 42 degree with one pulled out less than a foot more from the corner than the other. This eliminated much of the standing waves. In your case it may not have helped due to room differences, but I wanted to mention this for someone who might be fighting the same battle.
Good discussion guys--Just to chime in with a point of information the volume control on the pacific is NOT handled in the digital realm. It is handled by very high grade resistors in a ladder.
Well, that changes everything. So, even in the Pacific without the preamplfier the gain control is a precision resistive attenuator? Steve is just attenuating the signal amplitude in the analog domain for an optimum setting in his system?
Well, that changes everything. So, even in the Pacific without the preamplfier the gain control is a precision resistive attenuator? Steve is just attenuating the signal amplitude in the analog domain for an optimum setting in his system?
Call it what you wish it effects the overall sound I don’t know why but it does. If you level match volumes it’s still there. as what type vol is best it’s up to each. Me it’s digital as the thought is a resistor in the signal path kills me lol. Same of used to attenuate it’s use in a voltage reg path. But playing and observation is just hiw it should be done. I have at present a TRP , GG2 and a PAC as Fred says they use varying ways to vol. they all work very well it’s the concept that’s important.
So you recommend getting a Lampi with Vol control and feel it worthwhile even with what surely must be a loss in transparency of the signal , as it passes thru two Vol. controls.
I have no lampi but I have a phono that is both gain adjustable and volume adjustable plugging into the same pre amp that Steve has. In my case I say the same that being able to adjust or match the gain between source and component down is crucial to get an excellent drive from my vinyl front. I never explicitly said this but It is my secret weapon to get great drive from cartridges with different output sensitivity. I chose the EMT phono because of this. Loss of transparency? Nothing you and I could detect. More distortion? Yes, but only when you are unreasonably put a cart with 1.1mV to the 72 db input and crank up the gain knob and volume knob higher. A volume knob is cool to have. But I don't know if you could generalize this to all brands. Seems Lampi can do it without losing transparency too.
When you say you'll get a more tube influenced sound with a lower vol setting on the Pac (-18 db for example) and a more ss sound with a higher vol setting on the Pac (-10 for example)..... Are you speaking in the context of Steve's tube pre amp? That is, his tube pre-amp gain will have more influence because the Pac vol is set lower? But they are both tube components, so I may not get it.
If my assumption is correct, then would it follow that if one wants to balance a ss integrated amp towards a more tube sound from the Pac, I could experiment with a higher proportion of gain from the Pac?
Sorry, if I'm confused. I'm trying to learn something from you guys!
The other way. BTW, I run SS preamp and SS monoblocs. If I want a more tubey sound The Dac volume would be say -20db and the JRiver volume would be say 70% of max (I dont know Roon well and cant comment there, but many say to bypass it at all costs) and the preamp would be the master control volume set above unity gain and in the sweetspot (plus/minus volume according to desired listening level). That is how it works for me. Circa -15db gets the most balanced natural sound.
Steve has different gear, so his magic number can be different, BUT, he can start with the same logic and tailor to suit HIS ears.
Hi, hereby I am losing my "forum virginity" by this first ever post in 20 years. I used to be LukaszF on "Asylum" in the early 90ties. I was told that there is some positive energy boiling down here, and I took the "WBForum" plunge. Even if my 24hr day is totally consumed between work, sleeping and sport - I will try to assist whenever I can answer directly the Lampizator related (or tube related or digital) questions. Work has never been more exciting as we are entering second decade of our business stronger and better and more confident than ever before, and I am already working on 2022 products, so I am living in the Lampi Future !
Hi Lukasz and welcome to WBF from your most recent card holding Lampi owner.
I was hoping you might be able to enlighten readers as to your recommended way of using the volume control to achieve proper tone when the user also has a separate preamp with its own gain control
I am betting that the readers here will be overjoyed by your presence
Lukasz, please allow me to offer you a very warm welcome to the forum. I have heard many a great thing about your products, from friends and things I have read online.
Hi, hereby I am losing my "forum virginity" by this first ever post in 20 years. I used to be LukaszF on "Asylum" in the early 90ties. I was told that there is some positive energy boiling down here, and I took the "WBForum" plunge. Even if my 24hr day is totally consumed between work, sleeping and sport - I will try to assist whenever I can answer directly the Lampizator related (or tube related or digital) questions. Work has never been more exciting as we are entering second decade of our business stronger and better and more confident than ever before, and I am already working on 2022 products, so I am living in the Lampi Future !
The question of volume control is a complex one to answer. Somewhere between the DAC and the amp, we have to adjust the volume. It can be done a) in the digital process, b) in the DAC - analog domain, c) in the passive preamp, d) in the active preamp and e) in the amplifier.
Each way can be done well or badly, each one is equally good if done well. Many people would scream that digital volume looses bits, but I would defend this but this is not the subject of this post.
In our DACs we use the highest existing level of volume control quality. if level 1 is the pot, level 2 is the stepped rotary switch with discrete resistors, level 3 is microprocessor controlled relay network with one resistor pair in the chain. We are level 3. (well, there is also level 4 with non-binary ladder, but it is as rare as white raven. (We are working on releasing one passive preamp like that). We install this volume AFTER tube stage and just before the output and we find this scenario optimal. Theoretically, if our DAC works into the next component with volume control at the input, the two controllers work simply in parallel. It does not matter technically, if A is maxed out and B adjustable, or vice versa or both somewhat adjustable. For listening - each scenario can bring a different flavor and each one is "allowed". Do we need a preamplifier in the chain - with associated cost, shelf space, pair of interconnects and power cable - we don't, but if the user finds it useful or more attractive sounding - it is fine with me. Personally in such scenario I use DAC fully open. The series resistance is shorted then, and parallel resistance is a straight 10k to the ground.
