Fred
You'll be happy other that my big changes have happened with the Horizon and finding a tube set that gives me everything I want. I'm a very happy camper
Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve williams
- Start date
You'll be happy other that my big changes have happened with the Horizon and finding a tube set that gives me everything I want. I'm a very happy camper
Ken, it was great to see you again and so happy to hear the news of your improvement. You and Sheri (last week) are the first two people to hear my system with the new tubes to the Horizon and where I consider end game. Bear in mind all we did today was to stream from Qobuz and Tidal and I played you 3 high rez files from my internal library to see if you could hear a difference
This was the last rectifier I used and I love it. Nothing wrong IMO with it in my system. What I switched to gave me a top to bottom boost that the RGN 2004 lacked but was beautiful otherwise. Just turning it on each day made me smile
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I couldn't hear any difference at all between your local files and streaming. None. Wish I could sy the same about my system.
I have said many times over the years that I am not a tube roller. I prefer whatever tube rolling I do be in a direction that improves the overall SQ and I look for synergy in the tube kit that I will settle upon. Having the Lampi Horizon can be a life time exercise in tube rolling if that's what floats your boat. I prefer to find the tubes that work best in MY system, with my ROOM and my ELECTRONICS and most importantly my EARS. Having said this my first attempt to get me to end game tube rolling involved the
Takatsuki 274B rectifier
Tung Sol 6SN7 GT VT231 round plate and black glass for triodes
Tung Sol KT 170 for pentodes
I must admit that I did enjoy the music I heard in my system. Lately however there has been a lot of discussion involving super old rectifiers. I read all posts with great interest and felt that I wanted to take a dive into finding a rectifier that bests the Tak 274B . Along the way conversations with Laszlo and Goran lead me to believe that they were onto something new and very different. Finding the tubes recommended did not come easy nor did it come inexpensively To wit it was suggested that I do a comparison between my TS 6SN7 and a pair of Mullard ECC32's. It took me a few weeks to source a set of these tubes as they come along every now and again. I got lucky in finding 2 matched sets of Mullard brown base EC32 and another set of rebranded ECC32's. Doing an A-B-A test was quick and very easy to hear the difference. Simply put the Millard's provided more dynamics and more meat on the bone than the TS 6SN7 GT VT231. Also the TS KT 170 pentodes which I enjoyed previously was suggested to be compared to Tungsram OS1. These tubes, simply put were unobtainioum but I did manage to source two matched quads of the OS1. The sound with the OS1 was beautiful in all aspects and never broke up at high SPL. As to the older rectifiers the favorite seemed to be the Telefunken 1934 RGN 2004 mesh plate with Klangfilm 75301. These tubes are indeed abundantly available but in many different iterations. Further it seems that the entire world's supply of these tubes comes out if Italy and almost overnight when searching these tubes I guess the word got out as the asking price literally doubled and in the next few weeks the prices tripled. I did manage to get in somewhat early and found two excellent NOS tubes . The sound was exquisite and to me the journey was over. There is so much synergy to this tube set that one could live happily ever after . I also loved the glow of the rectifier when I powered it on. I thought it was a thing of beauty
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Here is a photo of that tube set
whatsbestforum.com
Takatsuki 274B rectifier
Tung Sol 6SN7 GT VT231 round plate and black glass for triodes
Tung Sol KT 170 for pentodes
I must admit that I did enjoy the music I heard in my system. Lately however there has been a lot of discussion involving super old rectifiers. I read all posts with great interest and felt that I wanted to take a dive into finding a rectifier that bests the Tak 274B . Along the way conversations with Laszlo and Goran lead me to believe that they were onto something new and very different. Finding the tubes recommended did not come easy nor did it come inexpensively To wit it was suggested that I do a comparison between my TS 6SN7 and a pair of Mullard ECC32's. It took me a few weeks to source a set of these tubes as they come along every now and again. I got lucky in finding 2 matched sets of Mullard brown base EC32 and another set of rebranded ECC32's. Doing an A-B-A test was quick and very easy to hear the difference. Simply put the Millard's provided more dynamics and more meat on the bone than the TS 6SN7 GT VT231. Also the TS KT 170 pentodes which I enjoyed previously was suggested to be compared to Tungsram OS1. These tubes, simply put were unobtainioum but I did manage to source two matched quads of the OS1. The sound with the OS1 was beautiful in all aspects and never broke up at high SPL. As to the older rectifiers the favorite seemed to be the Telefunken 1934 RGN 2004 mesh plate with Klangfilm 75301. These tubes are indeed abundantly available but in many different iterations. Further it seems that the entire world's supply of these tubes comes out if Italy and almost overnight when searching these tubes I guess the word got out as the asking price literally doubled and in the next few weeks the prices tripled. I did manage to get in somewhat early and found two excellent NOS tubes . The sound was exquisite and to me the journey was over. There is so much synergy to this tube set that one could live happily ever after . I also loved the glow of the rectifier when I powered it on. I thought it was a thing of beauty
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com
Here is a photo of that tube set
IMG_1006.jpeg
whatsbestforum.com
Here are photos of the other tubes
I then decided not to use a quad of the OS1 as they are so rare and I run my Horizon SE not balanced, so to save money and tube life I removed the OS1's from the right bank and inserted a pair of my TS KT170
Well I was in hog's heaven and could not extricate myself from my room as this sound was simply beautiful. One would think I reached end game and for a few weeks so did I. Well along the way some comparisons were made to the OS1 as well as to the TFKN RGN 2004 to see if the synergy could be maintained as well as to see if some more dynamics could be achieved. Well, never say never and sure enough a rectifier was found in the same type as the RGN 2004 mesh plate. After sourcing this rectifier which I believe is from the early 1940's I had another epiphany as the dynamics were indeed favorably increased and the bass was tighter and better defined . So what is the big reveal on the new rectifier. This one is very rare . They are available but they are not cheap. In fact they are in the price range of the priciest TFKN RGN 2004 but this rectifier is like the RGN 2004 on steroids......
Gentlemen, I introduce the Valvo G2504 solid plate. No blue glow but the sound is unforgettable
Gentlemen, I introduce the Valvo G2504 solid plate. No blue glow but the sound is unforgettable
So with the rentier now becoming my end game choice there was still a decision as to whether some thing extra could be found from a tube other than the OS1 and indeed a tube was found. To wit the SRS 551 became the final piece to the puzzle . Suffice it to say I was not prepared for what I heard with the SRS 551. My first source was branded WF SRS 551
whatsbestforum.com
I also managed to find a back up matched pair of Siemens RS1003 which is identical to the SRS 551
IMG_1200.jpeg
whatsbestforum.com
I also managed to find a back up matched pair of Siemens RS1003 which is identical to the SRS 551
and here is my final iteration which for my ears has brought my tube rolling saga to an end. The SRS 551 as I understand was a tube designed for FM transmission. and is said to outlive us all however I do have a back up set
In summary I stilll have the tube kit with the OS1/RGN 20004 which I love and will always keep. This is a tube set that one can live with forever but my further tests did in fact produce a tube set with simply amazing synergy but in my system and to my ears the dynamics are tight and explosive. The bass is so well defined that I have just never heard digital sound as good as it does now in my system.The midrange is a you are there experience. In fact there are two posts above from Ken Swanson and Sheri Morgenroth who are the only ones to have heard my system since the change and they commented that it was the best digital they have ever heard
The down side with the SRS 551 is that it needs special adapters and these as I understand it must be made from the original sockets as the pin size and pin diameter are different than the usual sockets. So before racing out for SRS 551 which BTW are plentiful make sure you can get an adapter that will work. Also the adapter for the VALVO G 2504 is also different than the adapter for the RGN 2004
In summary I stilll have the tube kit with the OS1/RGN 20004 which I love and will always keep. This is a tube set that one can live with forever but my further tests did in fact produce a tube set with simply amazing synergy but in my system and to my ears the dynamics are tight and explosive. The bass is so well defined that I have just never heard digital sound as good as it does now in my system.The midrange is a you are there experience. In fact there are two posts above from Ken Swanson and Sheri Morgenroth who are the only ones to have heard my system since the change and they commented that it was the best digital they have ever heard
The down side with the SRS 551 is that it needs special adapters and these as I understand it must be made from the original sockets as the pin size and pin diameter are different than the usual sockets. So before racing out for SRS 551 which BTW are plentiful make sure you can get an adapter that will work. Also the adapter for the VALVO G 2504 is also different than the adapter for the RGN 2004
My take on all of this
1. Older rectifiers seem to be the ones to have
2. There seems to be a bigger sound with globe or balloon shaped triodes
3. This was a 3 month exercise on my part which lead to the OS1/ RGN 2004/ECC32 which is also end game IMHO but the final few weeks to source the SRS 551 as well as the Valvo was an eye opener
4. These tubes are all very difficult to find except the STS 551 BUT once again you need an adapter for the Horizon that must be made from original sockets and this is almost impossible. Further be prepared to pony up some $$$ for these tube but at the end of the day I love what Im hearing and my quest is over
1. Older rectifiers seem to be the ones to have
2. There seems to be a bigger sound with globe or balloon shaped triodes
3. This was a 3 month exercise on my part which lead to the OS1/ RGN 2004/ECC32 which is also end game IMHO but the final few weeks to source the SRS 551 as well as the Valvo was an eye opener
4. These tubes are all very difficult to find except the STS 551 BUT once again you need an adapter for the Horizon that must be made from original sockets and this is almost impossible. Further be prepared to pony up some $$$ for these tube but at the end of the day I love what Im hearing and my quest is over
Congratulations, Steve! I am happy for you that you have arrived at your end game tubes set!
Thank you Ron because with a Horizon permutations and combinations are very high so when you go down that hole it should be (for me at least) a short trip with an end in sight. Fortunately for me and using the old phrase of "I went to school on his putt" so it was with me. We have amazing members here who are so expert in tube rolling . The two very best who come to mind are Laszlo and Goran. These two guys have tried them all and know what sounds good. They also have ways to find the very best of tubes. Case in point is when the OS1 dried up Goran had a source (who many of us have used in the past) who suggested the F17c was a similar option. And so also with Laszlo who loves to take that extra step and find tubes that I have never heard of before. He has taken up a serious side hobby of everything tubes. I went to school on both their putts. These guys are the greatest. Just remember to bring your check books as the tubes are old and scarce. Only issue for all of us to consider is that once the word gets out on a tube the price will double or triple over night so think of this as well. Otherwise hats off to Laszlo and Goran
I first heard the ML3 at CES in I believe 2008. I recall that that year Vladimir went to show with Jeff Catalano, a rare team up of very respected people in the audio community. Jeff and I agreed that that was the best we have ever heard Wilson speakers sound after Vladimir played a Tchaikovsky track on Jeff's TW turntable. I heard them next a few years later in Danville, California. This time the ML3s had their stablemate preamp in the mix.
11 years later the pre, amplifiers and speakers are all that remain. Steve has moved to a beautiful new home in SoCal. A true oasis of peace and quiet. New home, new music room, new acoustics, new electricals, new stands, footers, cables and of course source equipment. There is no way for me to parse what each change has contributed to the vast improvement the ever intrepid Stevie has achieved, so I won't go there.
What I will instead share are my impressions that lead me to categorically say that this room and this system despite having the same pre, amps, and speakers has taken a leap so big that I equate it to a difference between say my old MB GL and my current MB GLS also a decade apart in age. It just goes to show that God IS in the details. At no point did the X2s sound dated despite the drastic changes Wilson has made over the same number of years. One might say that Steve has gotten to a point where he's gotten the full potential out of them yet I think it too early to say. What if there is more?
There is a unifying theme however and I will start with the room. Bonnie did a darn good job delivering a room that is what I call comfortably quiet. It always unnerves me when I am bothered by my own breathing, my own heartbeat or when hungry my own stomach rumbling LOL I wasn't hungry thank God but no vital signs issues here. The HVAC was quieter than even my own and held temp perfectly. This room really allows one to hear the gremlins. Steve has over the years identified these critters and banished them for the most part. The racks and footers clearly have reduced hash from the mechanical realm. The cables we both use the hash in the signal end and partially the electrical end and his choice of sources all follow the same unifying theme of less noise means more music. Each of his source components are famous for their low self noise properties. Their design philosophies also the same. Emile, Lukasz on digital. Nishikawa-san (you will always be in my prayers dear friend) shared this too.
Doc's system makes for a great case study. If you only have 32 watts and you can't go up, where do you go? Well down of course. Dynamic range is defined as the range between the highest and lowest after all. It's no longer a question of the best first watt, it's the best first milliwatts and dealing with anything and everything that can corrupt the same.
In the end while I only had about an hour and a half, most of which I wanted to spend reconnecting with an old friend, I was treated by this friend to the fruits of his labor for the past 12 years or so since the move. At no point, given the selection of music played , did it ever feel like there wasn't enough power. The presentation was both bold yet delicate showing nimbleness, grace and a feeling that lurking behind is a big stick to whack you into shape should you disbelieve. This is a large format system and you don't forget it even when it is asked to seduce and beguile.
At one point I asked Steve to queue up an old track that I knew to be shall we say, recorded haphazardly so. Song to the Siren as covered by This Mortal Coil on indie label 4AD has the mesmerizing vocals of Elizabeth Frazier (Cocteau Twins) backed up by label mates playing session. Steve seemed somewhat puzzled by the choice but it did prove very quickly that this system was not of the lipstick on pig variety. The song was still pretty where its pretty and still hard and edgy where the engineers were careless. Points for honesty granted in full.
The biggest surprise for me was the digital. I am familiar with Lukasz work and although Jim hasn't upgraded from Pacific to Horizon yet, it is on his list of things to do. The Taiko SGM however was an eye opener for me. This is the first time I have ever heard digital of this quality through USB. This is MADI territory. While I use the same USB cable as Steve, The SGM is way ahead of my old workhorse W20 and will replace it. It sounds much closer to analog the way my C1.5 sounds so much closer to analog via Ethernet for files or discs through the D1.5 and the new HD boards. I am chomping at the bit for CH to now complete the line with a C10 now that the P10 has been released.
We are now part of the Taiko family and am licking my chops to get a full option Extreme to play with my C1.5 and incoming T1.
Anyway, I digress. I congratulated Steve for building up what can only be considered as a dream system. I told him that I find it very sad that in this hobby what is very often under appreciated is the human factor. The OWNER factor.
When Steve told me to comment away good or bad I said Steve I'm not that kind of listener. I always focus on the positive and just allow whatever shortcomings there are to present themselves. In other words, I gave up being a nitpicker a long time ago. I have the switch in my head that I can flip when that is what mode I need to be in but it is no longer my default. The sound being served up however raised no flags and that is why I deliberately asked to hear a known substandard track. That said, the point I am trying to make is that as participants of this hobby, we have all these tools at our disposal to get excellence. We are active participants in the reproduction of the recorded arts and therefor carry responsibility for both failure and success.
A few days later I met up in Del Mar, San Diego with Damon. I don't think VS has any dealer anywhere in the world that has set up as many of their models as I have. I asked him what his biggest challenge was in terms of their speakers being set up. I mean, plunk down a pair of VS' and they usually already sound good at the start positions. Damon said that yes they are easy to set up to sound good and because of that customers and dealers tend to leaves things as is too early. Basically that while a speaker system can have a huge sweet spot there is still the best spot.
Steve congratulations for not giving up too early and well, for not giving up period. Thanks for sharing your discoveries that others too may benefit as I will soon do when I get my SGM.
Here's to you, the next Basketball season and yeah, you still owe me a Pizza. LOL
Until we meet again, I love ya Brother. Let's not wait this long again Ok?
Ron, sorry I had no time to visit you and Tinka. Next time I promise to billet in LA instead of San Diego.
11 years later the pre, amplifiers and speakers are all that remain. Steve has moved to a beautiful new home in SoCal. A true oasis of peace and quiet. New home, new music room, new acoustics, new electricals, new stands, footers, cables and of course source equipment. There is no way for me to parse what each change has contributed to the vast improvement the ever intrepid Stevie has achieved, so I won't go there.
What I will instead share are my impressions that lead me to categorically say that this room and this system despite having the same pre, amps, and speakers has taken a leap so big that I equate it to a difference between say my old MB GL and my current MB GLS also a decade apart in age. It just goes to show that God IS in the details. At no point did the X2s sound dated despite the drastic changes Wilson has made over the same number of years. One might say that Steve has gotten to a point where he's gotten the full potential out of them yet I think it too early to say. What if there is more?
There is a unifying theme however and I will start with the room. Bonnie did a darn good job delivering a room that is what I call comfortably quiet. It always unnerves me when I am bothered by my own breathing, my own heartbeat or when hungry my own stomach rumbling LOL I wasn't hungry thank God but no vital signs issues here. The HVAC was quieter than even my own and held temp perfectly. This room really allows one to hear the gremlins. Steve has over the years identified these critters and banished them for the most part. The racks and footers clearly have reduced hash from the mechanical realm. The cables we both use the hash in the signal end and partially the electrical end and his choice of sources all follow the same unifying theme of less noise means more music. Each of his source components are famous for their low self noise properties. Their design philosophies also the same. Emile, Lukasz on digital. Nishikawa-san (you will always be in my prayers dear friend) shared this too.
Doc's system makes for a great case study. If you only have 32 watts and you can't go up, where do you go? Well down of course. Dynamic range is defined as the range between the highest and lowest after all. It's no longer a question of the best first watt, it's the best first milliwatts and dealing with anything and everything that can corrupt the same.
In the end while I only had about an hour and a half, most of which I wanted to spend reconnecting with an old friend, I was treated by this friend to the fruits of his labor for the past 12 years or so since the move. At no point, given the selection of music played , did it ever feel like there wasn't enough power. The presentation was both bold yet delicate showing nimbleness, grace and a feeling that lurking behind is a big stick to whack you into shape should you disbelieve. This is a large format system and you don't forget it even when it is asked to seduce and beguile.
At one point I asked Steve to queue up an old track that I knew to be shall we say, recorded haphazardly so. Song to the Siren as covered by This Mortal Coil on indie label 4AD has the mesmerizing vocals of Elizabeth Frazier (Cocteau Twins) backed up by label mates playing session. Steve seemed somewhat puzzled by the choice but it did prove very quickly that this system was not of the lipstick on pig variety. The song was still pretty where its pretty and still hard and edgy where the engineers were careless. Points for honesty granted in full.
The biggest surprise for me was the digital. I am familiar with Lukasz work and although Jim hasn't upgraded from Pacific to Horizon yet, it is on his list of things to do. The Taiko SGM however was an eye opener for me. This is the first time I have ever heard digital of this quality through USB. This is MADI territory. While I use the same USB cable as Steve, The SGM is way ahead of my old workhorse W20 and will replace it. It sounds much closer to analog the way my C1.5 sounds so much closer to analog via Ethernet for files or discs through the D1.5 and the new HD boards. I am chomping at the bit for CH to now complete the line with a C10 now that the P10 has been released.
We are now part of the Taiko family and am licking my chops to get a full option Extreme to play with my C1.5 and incoming T1.
Anyway, I digress. I congratulated Steve for building up what can only be considered as a dream system. I told him that I find it very sad that in this hobby what is very often under appreciated is the human factor. The OWNER factor.
When Steve told me to comment away good or bad I said Steve I'm not that kind of listener. I always focus on the positive and just allow whatever shortcomings there are to present themselves. In other words, I gave up being a nitpicker a long time ago. I have the switch in my head that I can flip when that is what mode I need to be in but it is no longer my default. The sound being served up however raised no flags and that is why I deliberately asked to hear a known substandard track. That said, the point I am trying to make is that as participants of this hobby, we have all these tools at our disposal to get excellence. We are active participants in the reproduction of the recorded arts and therefor carry responsibility for both failure and success.
A few days later I met up in Del Mar, San Diego with Damon. I don't think VS has any dealer anywhere in the world that has set up as many of their models as I have. I asked him what his biggest challenge was in terms of their speakers being set up. I mean, plunk down a pair of VS' and they usually already sound good at the start positions. Damon said that yes they are easy to set up to sound good and because of that customers and dealers tend to leaves things as is too early. Basically that while a speaker system can have a huge sweet spot there is still the best spot.
Steve congratulations for not giving up too early and well, for not giving up period. Thanks for sharing your discoveries that others too may benefit as I will soon do when I get my SGM.
Here's to you, the next Basketball season and yeah, you still owe me a Pizza. LOL
Until we meet again, I love ya Brother. Let's not wait this long again Ok?
Ron, sorry I had no time to visit you and Tinka. Next time I promise to billet in LA instead of San Diego.
Jack, I'm glad you had a wonderful time with Steve!
Tinka and I would love to see you next time!
Tinka and I would love to see you next time!
Jack
it was an absolute delight to catch up with you. I enjoyed every moment. I wanted your impression of theTaiko Extreme. To everyone who is reading Jack’s first commenpts to me were “does Taiko have representation in Philippines“. And Jack and Emile have talked and who greater a distributor in Philippines than my good friend Jack.
Jack I still owe you a pizza and you know when next time hopefully will be. I’m still hoping to have Emile here in Q4 for a soft launch of the new BPS and I have a room reserved for you
thank you so much for your lovely post. I have been pinching myself lately with my digital side. It’s getting spooky close to ……… in fact you even said the word so thanks for the validation
Here’s looking forward to the next time Jack Enjoy your Extreme when you get it. You’re in for a treat
it was an absolute delight to catch up with you. I enjoyed every moment. I wanted your impression of theTaiko Extreme. To everyone who is reading Jack’s first commenpts to me were “does Taiko have representation in Philippines“. And Jack and Emile have talked and who greater a distributor in Philippines than my good friend Jack.
Jack I still owe you a pizza and you know when next time hopefully will be. I’m still hoping to have Emile here in Q4 for a soft launch of the new BPS and I have a room reserved for you
thank you so much for your lovely post. I have been pinching myself lately with my digital side. It’s getting spooky close to ………
in fact you even said the word so thanks for the validationHere’s looking forward to the next time Jack Enjoy your Extreme when you get it. You’re in for a treat
Maybe Steve just absorbs and reflects the ideal frequency mix when he is in the room. Did you try listening when he was outside the room?
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