Does anyone understand the need for all of these digital components?

[DasguteOhr]

Laptop with better powersupply (old linn dirak 19V dc)fits purely by chance from the voltage router fritzbox better powersupply from keces.
I run foobar for ripping,streaming and cd/dsd playback so much good plugins for this program.
remote from the couch with foobar app andriod. With usb in mutec 3+ reclocker then with 110ohm aes/ebu to the metronome dac. Much better sound then usb.
Close to analog playback when same master used for cd/lp.

 

[Zeotrope]

I have an Apple Vision Pro that I use to stream very high resolution VR movies from Apple TV. Guess what, it started to pixelate. It choked, and it spluttered, and it struggled. Not just VR movies, but also Netflix, and also Disney+ and MAX etc. What was the problem? Well, as it turns out, the Apple Vision Pro is not a Wifi 6E device (that's only on the iPhone 15 Pro and iPhone 16, and some MacBook Pros and the new Mac mini's). So, it had negotiated a lower bandwidth transmission protocol which I had to manually reset. Finally, it found the right negotiation protocol at 5 Ghz, and all is well again.

Moral of the story: in real-time content streaming, there is no such thing as bit-perfect streaming, either in video or in audio. It does not exist, and it cannot exist.

This is not correct. Steaming is actually bit perfect.
When you see pixels, that’s noise or dropout related most likely. The bits are getting there though.

You don’t need Wifi 6, let alone 7 to stream content to Apple Vision Pro. I’m not supposed to say this, but I (now) work for Apple. You also cannot stream from ATV to Vision Pro as far as I know. My point is that if the stream isn’t playing correctly, it is not related to your Wifi speed or the resolution of the file. It’s probably interference, especially since you say that 5 GHz solved it.

The issue is not that the stream isn’t bit perfect (it is). The issues are noise and timing of the bits.

 

[PYP]

So this switch between my router and my Antipodes stuff, is it likely improve to improve the sound?

All networks are different and I don't use an Antipodes, but a demo of a Synergistic Research switch made a surprising improvement to the noise floor (my assumption) when used with a Grimm streamer/DAC (which is known to mostly be immune to noise carried along ethernet). Needless to say, you don't need to know how this works (I don't) nor believe that it might (I didn't), in order to try one (with return privileges).

Of course, there are many such switches. My impression of the SR is that it does not add its own sound, just lets the DAC do its thing more effortlessly. The SR typically includes a decent power cord and ethernet cable, but if you have a preferred brand of those cables available, I suggest you try them. Both the power cord and ethernet cable make a difference (I was skeptical about ethernet cables until I tried a few).

 

[KPC]

If you have a high end, revealing system, the improvements from adding a router, better streamer, etc will absolutely be noticeable.

Are you referring to adding a "quieter" router?
I only found 1 "audiophile" router, the Synergistic Research Network Router UEF with 1 glowing review.

 

[Zeotrope]

I am referring to the Taiko Audio network Switch and Router. They each made a significant improvement to the audio quality. These things are highly dependent on the design of the circuit, so I can’t speak for any and all of these “audiophile” routers and switches. Most are probably snake oil or have limited benefit… best to try them in your system in a way such that you can return them if you’re not happy.

Taiko actually offloads most of the network related processing to the Router, and the connection to the Switch is not via Ethernet. They really went crazy (in a good way) with the circuit engineering.

 

[audiobomber]

Wow, have you ever streamed video from Netflix or Amazon or Hulu etc.? Did you never notice the pixelization of the video?

I have never seen pixelation or freezing from Netflix or Prime Video when connected via LAN cable. I have seen it with wi-fi, but that was due to the poor wi-fi transmission in my home, which was built using a lot of concrete and rebar.

I once did a homebrew bandwidth test. I streamed 1080P Netflix from the internet and DSD 512 (8X DSD, 512 times the sampling rate of a CD) from my NAS, simultaneously, through a 100Mbps dual pair ethernet cable. My streamer and TV were both connected to an EtherRegen. Both systems performed flawlessly. Disconnecting the TV link had no impact on sound from the DAC. Your "need for speed" is nonsense.

No streaming algorithm that works in real-time could possibly ever be guaranteed to work in a bit-perfect mode. That's impossible.

Ethernet transmission is not real-time. Packets are queued by the sender. If packet delivery is delayed too long or lost, there will be, per my previous post, "ugly distortion or a dropout". That is what you are seeing with your pixelated Netflix issue. Fix your home network.

 

[ecwl]

So, these algorithms are adaptive. They try their best to recover the signal. I'll give you a concrete example. I recently "upgraded" my house wifi to Wifi 7 (Netgear Orbi 7) and also upgraded by internet to 1 gig download, and my cable model to DOCSIS 3.1 (Motorola). Great, but this technology is pretty newfangled. I have an Apple Vision Pro that I use to stream very high resolution VR movies from Apple TV. Guess what, it started to pixelate. It choked, and it spluttered, and it struggled. Not just VR movies, but also Netflix, and also Disney+ and MAX etc. What was the problem? Well, as it turns out, the Apple Vision Pro is not a Wifi 6E device (that's only on the iPhone 15 Pro and iPhone 16, and some MacBook Pros and the new Mac mini's). So, it had negotiated a lower bandwidth transmission protocol which I had to manually reset. Finally, it found the right negotiation protocol at 5 Ghz, and all is well again.

I just noticed this post and am somewhat confused.
Because you specifically mentioned something about negotiation protocol at 5GHz.

Previously, when I was on WiFi 5 or below, often this is so much interference from my neighbors that I often have to split the 2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi band and lock my devices to the 5GHz WiFi band to get good speeds and no drops via WiFi. Moreover, I also try my best to ensure that my own WiFi and my neighbors don’t overlap in the 2.4GHz & 5GHz range. I totally do a lot of manual stuff with my router.

But once I started with WiFi 6, I find that it’s way better to just let the router combine 2.4GHz and 5GHz together and let the router occupy as much bandwidth as possible as the WiFi steering starting with WiFi 6 onwards is so good that I get much better throughput naming my WiFi network under a single name with 2.4GHz & 5GHz (& 6GHz for 6E & 7) together and letting the network router figure out which device use which band. I also find even my older non-WiFi6 2.4GHz devices like my Anova oven locks on to the WiFi6 much better than when I manually separate out all the bands.

So when I read that you had to manually change transmission protocol and specifically for 5GHz, I wonder if you’re trying to run your WiFi 7 network as if it’s the older WiFi5 or earlier networks and getting suboptimal WiFi 7 performance. I actually did that at first with my WiFi6 until I started experimenting further.

And no. My Vision Pro doesn’t pixelate on WiFi6 with this setup.

 

[audiobomber]

I also try my best to ensure that my own WiFi and my neighbors don’t overlap in the 2.4GHz & 5GHz range. I totally do a lot of manual stuff with my router.

You don't need the latest protocol for reliable wi-fi. My router supports the older 802.11ac protocol, simultaneous 2.4GHz @ 600Mbps and 5GHz @ 1300Mbps connections. It automatically broadcasts on the channels with the least traffic, and my devices connect to whichever signal is cleanest. I didn't have to do anything manually after the initial setup.

Aside from that, you shouldn't be using wi-fi for your main audio system. Wi-fi is inferior to ethernet cable and optical beats both.

 

[AudioHR]

You don't need the latest protocol for reliable wi-fi. My router supports the older 802.11ac protocol, simultaneous 2.4GHz @ 600Mbps and 5GHz @ 1300Mbps connections. It automatically broadcasts on the channels with the least traffic, and my devices connect to whichever signal is cleanest. I didn't have to do anything manually after the initial setup.

Aside from that, you shouldn't be using wi-fi for your main audio system. Wi-fi is inferior to ethernet cable and optical beats both.

Following along on the many comments. No expertise here just questions. Trying to understand.

So Dan is your router something special or do today's routers do all of this stuff? Is your router in addition to the modem provided by your internet provider? You mentioned optical, where does this fit in.

Agree with your comment on Wifi. When I hardwired my Antipodes server everything became more stable and sounded better than the mesh Wifi I had been using.

 

[audiobomber]

is your router something special or do today's routers do all of this stuff? Is your router in addition to the modem provided by your internet provider? You mentioned optical, where does this fit in.

The internet provider only supplied a modem because I have my own router, a pretty generic TP-Link Archer C9, with linear power.

In the 2.4 and 5G wireless settings, I selected Auto for both Channel and Channel Width. The router does the rest, moves those parameters around for the cleanest signal, and the extender follows along. It is very useful to see the signal graphed in an Android app called Wifi Analyzer.

 

[Ian B]

Personally, I don't think bringing internet into high end audio was a good idea. This was to incorporate a highly complex system with multiple devices, and each one producing very high amounts of noise, digital garbage etc. There was no way of preserving audio quality in a cheap or simple way, and in the end it means a large system of expensive servers, switches, cables, and possibly filters/isolators, to try and counteract all noise and jitter introduced to the format. It's probably wiser to counteract the problem with high quality hardware as opposed to tweaks, but these add up. I have more components on my digital side than analog!

For some might be the question of "Why should I care?", but if you are already accustomed to CD/SACD playback etc the answer is obvious: streaming and associated network hardware are a big step backwards. People are shoveling money into solutions just to make streamed, or even stored files, have the same playback quality as optical disc, or a simple old school HDD player. And it's a lot of money, and a lot of annoying little parts, any of which can have a problem with compatibility, or receiving an IP address from the router etc etc etc, for what has yet to ever match disc playback.

The most annoying thing about this is the cost and technical headache are for essentially remedial solutions. We aren't getting better sound with streaming, we are paying multiple times the cost to get back to the audio quality we already had.

I think it would be better to just have a really nice server with local files and a remote control, no internet. But here we are, having to use a noisy as hell LAN just to play files off a hard drive.

 

[treitz3]

You either spend money on the physical media or you rent it. To rent it? You pay a price.

Rent just gives one more options.

Tom

 

[PYP]

To answer the OP: These guys do - https://www.alpha-audio.net/alpha-pro-network-service/

We thought about it for quite a long time. And to be honest, we had some doubts. But we decided to offer it anyway: the Alpha Audio Pro Network Service. A service in which we can advise on network solutions as well as take care of installation and configuration.

No affiliation but have been reading their tests and they know what they are doing.

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays

 

[PYP]

The most annoying thing about this is the cost and technical headache are for essentially remedial solutions. We aren't getting better sound with streaming, we are paying multiple times the cost to get back to the audio quality we already had.

There is certainly that. But if the audio quality can be completely satisfying (it can), you can get access to literally millions (supposedly 100 million via Qobuz!) of songs and hundreds of thousands of albums. If that is your playground, it is awesome.

Having gone the route of many, many little boxes and wires/LPS/clocks, the path of fewer (yes, more expensive) boxes is the way to go. Needless to say, the streamer is all important. Start there.

Well, time for Handel's Messiah. Which of the 35 available on Qobuz to choose? Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, all.

 

[treitz3]

IME, there are things on physical digital, streaming and vinyl that are superior to one another. Who cares at the end of the day?

Listen to the best version you have at the moment of time and enjoy it like you only have one life to live.

Tom

 

[mtemur]

DSD 512 (8X DSD, 512 times the sampling rate of a CD)

But CD has 32767 times more resolution than DSD.

Neither sampling rate nor bit rate means anything alone. I always come across those kind of DSD advertising tricks. In the end 1X DSD equals approximately 88.2K/24bits PCM.

 

[audiobomber]

But CD has 32767 times more resolution than DSD.

I assume you are joking? My statement about DSD sampling rate is correct. I said nothing about bits or resolution.

Neither sampling rate nor bit rate means anything alone. I always come across those kind of DSD advertising tricks. In the end 1X DSD equals approximately 88.2K/24bits PCM.

CD is 44.1/16 bits, which equals 706 data points
I heard DSD has similar resolution to 96/20, but using your 88.2/24, gives 2117 data points, which is 3x the resolution of CD.
I used 8X DSD, which is equivalent to 24X the resolution of CD.

Again though, I was not discussing resolution. The point of my post was simply that high speed LAN is not needed for audio. I used 8X DSD for my home test because it is the heaviest lift in my music collection.

 

[TonyW]

Currently, I use my own modem, a Netgear CM1000, and a Deco router which has two outputs (and one output can be optical). From there one ethernet cable, 5m long, goes to a Synergistic Research Ethernet Switch UEF and the other cable goes to a LHY-8 ethernet switch. The LHY-8 feeds a back channel to a second Deco router and another cable goes to a second ethernet switch that feeds the Apple TV. That second ethernet switch is an English Electric 8. The streaming picture quality is amazing. It’s like a moving photograph. Very very close to the picture quality with my Pioneer 4k Blu ray player. I normally do not stand right in front of the TV but the detail in the picture is remarkable. And yes, these two ethernet switches are trickle down from my audio system.

But back to audio: The SR Ethernet Switch UEF feeds the Antipodies K50 via an AQ Vodka Ethernet cable. All of the other ethernet cables are AQ cinnamon. I found Ag plated Cu wire is the best combination for ethernet cables. I’m sure pure Ag wire would be good too but that isn’t the only consideration with high frequency cables. (I go from the wall to EE8 to Apple TV with Ag plated ethernet cables but it is a 75 ft CAT7 cable through the house.) The cables closet to the music server are the most important. I experimented with that. I also found Pangea silver plated ethernet cables are the best bang for the buck. AQ adds a little for much more cost.

Over the last few years I experimented with cheap switches, different routers, optical, and optical with expensive FMCs, power supplies and so on. The $800 ethernet switches are good. The SR Ethernet Switch is better, much better.

Short summary: Modem- AQ Cinnamon Ethernet cable- Deco Router- AQ Cinnamon Ethernet cable- SR Ethernet Switch UEF, (2 SR Ethernet Performance Enhancers)- AQ Vodka Ethernet Cable- Antipodes K50- Purist Audio Anniversary USB- Aeries Cerat DAC- musical bliss.

I find streaming now as satisfying and enjoyable as vinyl. Both systems have PRaT and are musical. I think the sound of digital and analog have converged. So it is down to mastering. Some music I play only on vinyl because the digital recreation is not as good- and comparison to a couple of Blue Note vinyl records for example, the digital versions are not even close.

For a while there it seemed like for digital more was more but I have come back around to less is more- but the “less” costs a lot more.

 

[TonyW]

PS. I should mention that the Pangea Ag plated ethernet cables are directional but they are not marked. I had to plug them in, let them break in for a day or two and then reverse them to find the right direction. You will hear the difference. And the obviousness of that difference is most apparent at the music server and least apparent between the modem and router- but still audible.

The first time I tried the Pangea, I was ready to send it back. Even after a couple of days it sounded worse than my cheap basic ethernet cable. Then I thought to try reversing it and behold! The sound was much better than the cheap basic cable now.

 

[theophile]

Vinyl based system with over 4000 records. Have a Oppo 105D for digital discs. Not going any further into digital than that.