Does Everything Make a Difference?

I would venture to say that most of us here at the WBF actually listen. There is no "belief" in the equation.
Yes, but doesn't this really beg the question? Are we really hearing the subtle differences in sound from tweaks we believe we are hearing?

Or our beliefs about subtle differences in sound from tweaks due to one or more biases or prejudices or self-delusions or cognitive dissonance?
 
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Yes, but doesn't this really beg the question? Are we really hearing the subtle differences in sound from tweaks we believe we are hearing?

Or our beliefs about subtle differences in sound from tweaks due to one or more biases or prejudices or self-delusions or cognitive dissonance?
Good morning, Ron. While I can't speak for others, it's real simple for me. I either hear a difference or I don't. Belief does not enter into this equation.

This applies to everything when it comes to my rig. Whether it be (but certainly not limited to) an amplifier, a cable, a fuse, an electrical upgrade or a tweak.

Tom
 
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One imagines winning the lottery. I would venture to say that most of us here at the WBF actually listen. There is no "belief" in the equation.

Tom
The placebo effect, which is an established tenet in scientific methodology, provides a lot of evidence otherwise!
 
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I also don't see where this has changed any ones mind. It's a civil discussion and that's a start.

Rob :)
I've never suggested this has changed anyone's mind. I am simply trying to get both sides to agree in advance on the rules of the game.
 
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this is an incorrect representation of the problem. For example, when the Soulution pre was placed in my friend’s Allnic Avalon system, it took me C 15 minutes to tell him he should buy it. He agreed with all my conclusions he heard them himself. After I left, it took him one month to decide. Why? 1) it was his money 2) my records left with me and on his records, you can’t always make the difference our that quick

That was the Soulution 720. When the 720 had to be sent for repairs, the next upgrade 725 was placed free in his system by the dealer. I told him this is good but not as good (IIRC Shakti found the same in his system the 720 to be preferable). Due to the pandemic and Soulution service, the 720 returned two years later. The 725 was being offered to him for only 6k GBP more. He declined, as he now after keeping both in his system heard the exact thing. I can cite more such examples

the difference here is more than A/B. You can A/B quickly, but then check if that difference is repeatable across records. During the A/B, you can look for artefacts which will make the difference boring in a few weeks (e.g. homogenising across records despite having a positive difference on the first record).

In order to A/B efficiently, you need to have good listening points (that is, the right type of records with the right type of music and points to listen to on the records). You should have a variety of records. I can’t use my friend’s records or your fields of gold to make meaningful assessment as quickly, or as correctly.

After that, meaningful differences in the same system stand out pretty quickly. In different systems due to different synergies and set ups they might differ. If the differences are marginal and you can’t make out easily, just go with the better deal instead of trying to find meaning in the minute difference. Or, a system is very coloured and does not tell some differences when they are meant to be meaningful.
Your personal and idiosyncratic experiences does not a mutually agreeable protocol make.
 
Yes, but doesn't this really beg the question? Are we really hearing the subtle differences in sound from tweaks we believe we are hearing?

Or our beliefs about subtle differences in sound from tweaks due to one or more biases or prejudices or self-delusions or cognitive dissonance?
over time we each develop tools we use for investigation. reference cuts, maybe a list. we probably have a few layers of go-to music for when we need to understand something. or maybe even a listening buddy who can give us a reality check. or maybe a step back move. where you go away and do something else, then come back to it.

helps to have confidence in your system to say the truth. that's the hard part, to get there.

for me i absolutely love to lose myself into some deep investigation. it's therapeutic. i let my wife know to leave me alone, i need to be in the zone. those are precious processes for me. then i own my result. it's mine.

lastly no hurry, easy to change something back and spend more time. be patient. then believe your ears.

if we seek objective proof, it's the wrong hobby for us. those who need proof are in a different hobby.
 
Good morning, Ron. While I can't speak for others, it's real simple for me. I either hear a difference or I don't. Belief does not enter into this equation.

This applies to everything when it comes to my rig. Whether it be (but certainly not limited to) an amplifier, a cable, a fuse, an electrical upgrade or a tweak.

Tom
If it's a *sighted* listening test, then your beliefs are definitely part of the equation.

https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
 
Your personal and idiosyncratic experiences does not a mutually agreeable protocol make.
It does, because you ignored the fact in that example that time has nothing to do with it.
 
It does, because you ignored the fact in that example that time has nothing to do with it.
For audiophiles who feel that time has something to do with it, you cannot convince them that time has nothing to do with it.
 
For audiophiles who feel that time has something to do with it, you cannot convince them that time has nothing to do with it.

Same as for those who think digital is better than vinyl then. It is fine to accept status quo and ignore willingness to learn
 
"Everything" is a pretty broad category, so I can't say with confidence that everything matters. But a lot of things do. What we can hear is huge variable with lots of contributing components (pardon the pun). Many changes that I've made are miniscule, and sometimes beyond my ability to detect....however, I do believe that such minor changes can still be a step in the right direction, and can sum together to become audible. The more veils that get removed, the easier it is to find others.

Aside from major component changes or mods, the minor things that I hear a difference in (aka "improvement", or they don't stay) include isolation, wires, cables, connectors, tubes, op amps, capacitors, some resistors, bi-wiring, bi-amping, subwoofer polarity, baffle treatment....I'm sure there are others. The better a system gets, the more differences you can hear, but it can sometimes take a while to recognize small changes, so you really need to give them ample listening time to identify.
 
Same as for those who think digital is better than vinyl then. It is fine to accept status quo and ignore willingness to learn
Interesting article in Wikipedia on the digital vs. vinyl debate. Some excerpts from that below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_analog_and_digital_recording

Comparison of analog and digital recording
Sound can be recorded and stored and played using either digital or analog techniques. Both techniques introduce errors and distortions in the sound, and these methods can be systematically compared. Musicians and listeners have argued over the superiority of digital versus analog sound recordings. Arguments for analog systems include the absence of fundamental error mechanisms which are present in digital audio systems, including aliasing and associated anti-aliasing filter implementation, jitter and quantization noise. Advocates of digital point to the high levels of performance possible with digital audio, including excellent linearity in the audible band and low levels of noise and distortion.

With vinyl records, there will be some loss in fidelity on each playing of the disc. This is due to the wear of the stylus in contact with the record surface. When a CD is played, there is no physical contact involved as the data is read optically using a laser beam. Therefore, no such media deterioration takes place, and the CD will, with proper care, sound exactly the same every time it is played. The 16-bit digital system of Red Book audio CD has 216 = 65,536 possible signal amplitudes, theoretically allowing for an SNR of 98 dB. Because they have no moving parts in the signal path, digital systems are not subject to rumble or wow and flutter.

A theoretical LP composed of perfect diamond, with a groove size of 8 micron and a feature size of 0.5 nanometer, has a quantization that is similar to a 16-bit digital sample. CD quality audio is sampled at 44,100 Hz (Nyquist frequency = 22.05 kHz) and at 16 bits. Sampling the waveform at higher frequencies and allowing for a greater number of bits per sample allows noise and distortion to be reduced further. DVD-Audio can be 96 or 192 kHz and up to 24 bits resolution. With any of these sampling rates, signal information is captured above what is generally considered to be the human hearing frequency range.

Early digital recordings
Early digital audio machines had disappointing results, with digital converters introducing errors that the ear could detect. Record companies released their first LPs based on digital audio masters in the late 1970s. CDs became available in the early 1980s. At this time analog sound reproduction was a mature technology.

There was a mixed critical response to early digital recordings released on CD. Compared to vinyl record, it was noticed that CD was far more revealing of the acoustics and ambient background noise of the recording environment. For this reason, recording techniques developed for analog disc, e.g., microphone placement, needed to be adapted to suit the new digital format.

Some analog recordings were remastered for digital formats. Analog recordings made in natural concert hall acoustics tended to benefit from remastering. The remastering process was occasionally criticised for being poorly handled. When the original analog recording was fairly bright, remastering sometimes resulted in an unnatural treble emphasis.

Analog preference
The vinyl revival is in part because of analog audio's imperfection, which adds "warmth". Some listeners prefer such audio over that of a CD. Founder and editor Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound magazine says that "LPs are decisively more musical. CDs drain the soul from music. The emotional involvement disappears".

Those who favor the digital format point to the results of blind tests, which demonstrate the high performance possible with digital recorders. The assertion is that the "analog sound" is more a product of analog format inaccuracies than anything else. One of the first and largest supporters of digital audio was the classical conductor Herbert von Karajan, who said that digital recording was "definitely superior to any other form of recording we know". The perception of analog audio being demonstrably superior was also called into question by music analysts following revelations that audiophile label Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab had been covertly using Direct Stream Digital files to produce vinyl releases marketed as coming from analog master tapes, with lawyer and audiophile Randy Braun stating that "These people who claim they have golden ears and can hear the difference between analog and digital, well, it turns out you couldn't."
 
As a fellow scientist who, like yourself, trained in a field far removed from audio (in my case geoscience), I’m not surprised our beliefs are aligned. What DOES surprise me is that the scientific method - along with the null hypothesis - are parts of the high school science curriculum; at some point most people learn this, but it seems like a post-secondary reinforcement is required for it to stick.

Humility is an inherent aspect of good scientific research because without it, bias may impact results. “Oh, we don’t have to test for that because we know it isn’t important,” is a career-limiting mindset. In addition, scientists know that the outcome of experiments depends significantly on factors that lay people - who go straight to the punchline - don’t appreciate, whereas scientists study how the experiment was designed and controlled before opining on the results. In my view, this is the number one problem with many audiophiles - all they care about is the punchline.

I like trying tweaks, but only if they are free or “try before you buy.” Even though my scientist days are far behind me, I consider my stereo system a lab, and trying a tweak is like conducting a little experiment. My processes are crude and flawed compared with real science, but being humble, minimizing bias, having some understanding of psychoacoustics and trying to control variables as much as possible, those are all parts of the hobby’s fun. This has yielded some surprises for sure, ones that undoubtedly are caused by the limits of my hearing, system and room, but unlike “real” science, I am not in search of universal truth, just the truth that exists in my listening room.

Good post!

I hold these two propositions:

1. The scientific method, and knowledge gained from it, as well as from engineering, is deeply relevant to claims made about audio gear. It is the most reliable method of vetting such claims.

however

2. No audiophile is required to use a scientific method, or engage in any such rigorous methods of inquiry, when practising this hobby. Every audiophile is, and should be, free to enjoy audio gear in any way he/she pleases.

The problem I've found in ever introducing the relevance of science/engineering to purely subjective audiophiles, is that they tend to see a defence of #1 as an attack on, or undermining of #2. Like "who are YOU to browbeat others in to how to do this hobby!?? You are only out to troll and ruin people's enjoyment!" When that is not what is happening at all.

As for #1, the scientists in this thread should appreciate why the scientific method arose in the first place, and why it has been so successful in gaining us reliable and predictive knowledge. We humans are basic empiricists, we have managed to survive by doing basic forms of testing and inferences (e.g. how to grow crops, raise animals, build homes, etc). However we have massive liabilities that mean we also produce a huge amount of error. It was the honing of the scientific method, where we really take seriously the ways we can go wrong (e.g. biases, sloppy inferences) in to the method itself, so you control for variables, including bias, and you have others trying to prove you wrong, checking your work. It is a FAR more rigorous method than everyday empiricism. Everyday empiricism of "try this claim and see if it works" is sloppy enough to have people believing in untold number of false, wacky, unscientific beliefs. "Skeptical" people tried astrology, New Age medicine, spirit readings, palmistry, you name it, "and found it worked!" And the reason was their sloppy method of "testing" and inference making and ignoring the skeptical scrutiny of others checking their work.

This is why "I tried it and it worked" doesn't reach anything like scientific confidence levels.

It's why it doesn't matter, for any claim, or anyone "experimenting with things at home," it doesn't matter if one is a scientist in their day job. What matters is the METHOD, the rigour, they are using. That's why it's their in their day job as a scientist!

That said...and speaking to #2 above: The fact is none of us are in in a position to scientifically vet our every decision. That's impossible. So we have to recognize we can relax our standards to allow rational inferences using "every day empirical insights."
And after all, engineers through time have often not been doing science per se, but a lot of "try and see what happens."

For me, the way I reconcile and balance these two issues - 1. science is the gold standard for testing and 2. We can not use this method for much of what we are doing in life - is to use a heuristic what we all tend to use: Extraordinary Claims require extraordinary evidence. Applied to audio, if I'm evaluating two loudspeakers like a B&W vs a Revel speaker, and detecting a rising high end in the B&W and it's sonic consequences in the recordings, it's possible there is a bias effect going on. But it's also an extremely plausible phenomenon! So I can accept what I perceive (with the appropriate background caveats and confidence levels). But if I'm 'hearing' differences between usb cables, or some AC cables or things that I know to be quite controversial among technical experts, then I'm much more cautious in my confidence levels. I'd prefer to see more rigorous evidence, both technically and in listening tests (which is why I have done blind testing).

But as I said, no audiophile is REQUIRED to even think like that. I love my tube amps and have done tube rolling, which seems to alter the sound. I also seemed to have heard some difference between the same amp design with different capacitors. I understand this is controversial among some technical experts, but I'm fine going with my impressions because I acknowledge I'm not practising science, just trying to have fun and please myself.

However, IF someone says "it's possible you think your tube amps are just bringing 'warmth' to the sound because you expect it, or because of how they look with the glowing tubes" etct, I am NOT going to rail at the skeptic saying "What do you know? You must have ears of cloth if you can't hear what I hear! Or your system must suck in terms of resolution!"

No, I will happily acknowledge they are right - it COULD be my imagination, and without a more rigorous test, I'm not in a position to claim otherwise to anyone else. (Which btw, is one reason I did blind test my tube pre-amp against my solid state preamp, and easily passed that blind test).

So I don't care how any audiophile enjoys tweaking his system. But if they are going to leverage that to making objective claims about the sound really changing, or proposing dubious technical stories about how that is happening, then my critical thinking cap goes on.
 
Good post!

I hold these two propositions:

1. The scientific method, and knowledge gained from it, as well as from engineering, is deeply relevant to claims made about audio gear. It is the most reliable method of vetting such claims.

however

2. No audiophile is required to use a scientific method, or engage in any such rigorous methods of inquiry, when practising this hobby. Every audiophile is, and should be, free to enjoy audio gear in any way he/she pleases.

The problem I've found in ever introducing the relevance of science/engineering to purely subjective audiophiles, is that they tend to see a defence of #1 as an attack on, or undermining of #2. Like "who are YOU to browbeat others in to how to do this hobby!?? You are only out to troll and ruin people's enjoyment!" When that is not what is happening at all.

As for #1, the scientists in this thread should appreciate why the scientific method arose in the first place, and why it has been so successful in gaining us reliable and predictive knowledge. We humans are basic empiricists, we have managed to survive by doing basic forms of testing and inferences (e.g. how to grow crops, raise animals, build homes, etc). However we have massive liabilities that mean we also produce a huge amount of error. It was the honing of the scientific method, where we really take seriously the ways we can go wrong (e.g. biases, sloppy inferences) in to the method itself, so you control for variables, including bias, and you have others trying to prove you wrong, checking your work. It is a FAR more rigorous method than everyday empiricism. Everyday empiricism of "try this claim and see if it works" is sloppy enough to have people believing in untold number of false, wacky, unscientific beliefs. "Skeptical" people tried astrology, New Age medicine, spirit readings, palmistry, you name it, "and found it worked!" And the reason was their sloppy method of "testing" and inference making and ignoring the skeptical scrutiny of others checking their work.

This is why "I tried it and it worked" doesn't reach anything like scientific confidence levels.

It's why it doesn't matter, for any claim, or anyone "experimenting with things at home," it doesn't matter if one is a scientist in their day job. What matters is the METHOD, the rigour, they are using. That's why it's their in their day job as a scientist!

That said...and speaking to #2 above: The fact is none of us are in in a position to scientifically vet our every decision. That's impossible. So we have to recognize we can relax our standards to allow rational inferences using "every day empirical insights."
And after all, engineers through time have often not been doing science per se, but a lot of "try and see what happens."

For me, the way I reconcile and balance these two issues - 1. science is the gold standard for testing and 2. We can not use this method for much of what we are doing in life - is to use a heuristic what we all tend to use: Extraordinary Claims require extraordinary evidence. Applied to audio, if I'm evaluating two loudspeakers like a B&W vs a Revel speaker, and detecting a rising high end in the B&W and it's sonic consequences in the recordings, it's possible there is a bias effect going on. But it's also an extremely plausible phenomenon! So I can accept what I perceive (with the appropriate background caveats and confidence levels). But if I'm 'hearing' differences between usb cables, or some AC cables or things that I know to be quite controversial among technical experts, then I'm much more cautious in my confidence levels. I'd prefer to see more rigorous evidence, both technically and in listening tests (which is why I have done blind testing).

But as I said, no audiophile is REQUIRED to even think like that. I love my tube amps and have done tube rolling, which seems to alter the sound. I also seemed to have heard some difference between the same amp design with different capacitors. I understand this is controversial among some technical experts, but I'm fine going with my impressions because I acknowledge I'm not practising science, just trying to have fun and please myself.

However, IF someone says "it's possible you think your tube amps are just bringing 'warmth' to the sound because you expect it, or because of how they look with the glowing tubes" etct, I am NOT going to rail at the skeptic saying "What do you know? You must have ears of cloth if you can't hear what I hear! Or your system must suck in terms of resolution!"

No, I will happily acknowledge they are right - it COULD be my imagination, and without a more rigorous test, I'm not in a position to claim otherwise to anyone else. (Which btw, is one reason I did blind test my tube pre-amp against my solid state preamp, and easily passed that blind test).

So I don't care how any audiophile enjoys tweaking his system. But if they are going to leverage that to making objective claims about the sound really changing, or proposing dubious technical stories about how that is happening, then my critical thinking cap goes on.

Very good post.

I think you laid out the merits, and the distinction with everyday empiricism, of the scientific method very well.

As a scientist I am obviously not averse to measurements, and no audiophile should be. I want my speakers to have a flat frequency response, to have minimal distortion, to have high sensitivity and to have benign impedance and phase angle curves so that I know my tube amp can drive them easily. These are all measurements.

Yet I have to do the listening myself and determine if their sonics meet my priorities, preferences and tastes. Measurements only go so far for that and ultimately will fail to be a substitute for my own listening.

What we should not forget is that the scientific method is mostly not applicable to individuals. It is best applied to reproducible cohorts.

Another thing is human psychology. Any "scientific test" that disregards it and treats humans as robotic test subjects of input - output is ridiculous. It is pseudoscientific nonsense. It is making a travesty out of real science.

For reasons of having to account for human psychology I also object to blind tests being called "scientific". Blind tests introduce stress and with it a psychological variable that cannot be controlled for in a scientifically responsible manner. This does not mean that blind tests cannot be useful. I have passed blind tests with flying colors, reliably pointing out differences (in some sighted tests I have also not found differences, rejecting my initial assessment of hearing differences by going back and forth). But even when blind tests are useful (and fun) they are *not* science. Neither are sighted tests of course.

Human psychology is a very tricky subject for science, and prone to being pseudo-science even as an alleged scientific discipline. The worst is evolutionary psychology. It mostly lacks rigorous tests of hypotheses (this would be very difficult) and instead just builds "narratives" (how did humans evolve dancing -- because: blah blah blah). Storytelling masquerading as science.
 
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Everything has a cause and effect, that includes the euphoria you may get from a placebo. Euphotia is a chemical reaction. Before you go searching for a solution you need to make sure you know what the problem is/The solution must be effective and not cause a new problem.
everything matters. LODR and C\B apply.
 
Everything has a cause and effect, that includes the euphoria you may get from a placebo. Euphotia is a chemical reaction. Before you go searching for a solution you need to make sure you know what the problem is/The solution must be effective and not cause a new problem.
everything matters. LODR and C\B apply.

I've said before to the folks on the ASR forum: It could be that the perceived sonic effects of my CJ tube amps is my imagination, a bias effect. But if so, I'm happy to avail myself of a bias effect that has remained consistent for 25 years :)
 
I've said before to the folks on the ASR forum: It could be that the perceived sonic effects of my CJ tube amps is my imagination, a bias effect. But if so, I'm happy to avail myself of a bias effect that has remained consistent for 25 years :)
You must be a masochist.
Anyway/ I thought the party line was euphonic distortion. Let them listen to their flat FR and .0001 distortion. Whatever makes them happy.
 
Are we really hearing the subtle differences in sound from tweaks we believe we are hearing?

This line of questioning which has been there since the opening post, strikes me as neurotic. There is no spoon.

I'm listening to the Quartetto Italiano play Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 131 In C Sharp Minor and I say to myself "I really enjoy that performance." Then someone asks "Are you really enjoying it or do you just believe you are enjoying it."

Within your suspension of your disbelief, does it really matter?
 
Placebo effect, emotional bias, or wishful thinking are catch phrases that the measurement aficionado's throw around way too frequently as a psychological cause for any perceived sonic changes that measurements don't support. How is it that placebo effect never explains the changes I've made that had a negative effect on sound, when I truly wanted it to be an improvement?
 
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Placebo effect, emotional bias, or wishful thinking are catch phrases that the measurement aficionado's throw around way too frequently as a psychological cause for any perceived sonic changes that measurements don't support. How is it that placebo effect never explains the changes I've made that had a negative effect on sound, when I truly wanted it to be an improvement?
Don't confuse us with logic.
 
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