Does Everything Make a Difference?

I am not as good at hearing subtle changes in other people systems as some people are. When I do hear them, it sometimes takes me time to figure out what is going on. When Ed and I first finished the major work at Fremers and we turned the system back on, Ed was literally stumbling around saying Owe My God over and over. It took me about 3 songs, then it really clicked. Later on I went back to Fremers and was listening to some additional work I did. He pointed out what he was hearing, then I heard it too. So yes Ron, we hear it, but we don't always process it in our mind.

I wonder if the people that have the best perception of subtle changes are the people that have spent time in their rooms tuning the room, the speakers and dialing in Subwoofers. Maybe they have learned from their time and can clue in to changes faster than other.
how long have you been a very serious audiophile? and how much do you actually listen? it comes to everyone differently but there is a learning curve.

i'm not a quick listener. what i mean is that others hear things quicker than me sometimes. and i need to be in my own chair, calm and in my right head space, to actually listen at my best. it's my comfort zone developed over 3 decades of time. i do think when i am in that right place i do absolutely believe my ears.

so there are a few variables to listening deeply. and everyone has their personal approach.
 
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could it be just placebo?

i've never tested the Nucleus, but I've ran the roon core on:

- macbook air intel 2019
- macbook pro 13 intel 2019
- macbook 14 m1
- dell latitude 13 laptop
- hp zbook studio 15 laptop
- intel nuc
- HTPC

with weiss 501 dac which is also a 'roon ready' streamer .. and nothing .. no sonic differences.

currently my roon core installed on Asus chromebox 3 with 'mrchromebox' firmware for UEFI support,
just cause the chromebox have the quieter fan compered to intel nuc.

i don't believe 'roon Nucleus' has some kind of secret sauce that make any difference.
I have no problem believing that you can’t hear any difference. I can’t listen with your ears, so I take your word for it.

If I were looking at it from your position, I would suggest that putting the Roon core on the network via WiFi (the MacBook) vs hanging the core on the network with a cat 6 cable is probably a major factor.

The other thing I’d probably muse on is the fact that the Nucleus is purpose built for the Roon tasks, and such processors usually offer better efficiency than those for general work.
 
I think a lot of the stuff doesn't matter, and hearing differences between, say , a rhodium plated outlet and a gold plated one as a broad example, is likely about your mood in that moment, and possibly anxiety in trying to find a difference.

My feeling and experience suggests that these things are such a drop in the ocean of a complex signal chain with hundreds or thousands of electrical components, the room, placement, etc — that any audibility is likely imagination.
 
I think a lot of the stuff doesn't matter, and hearing differences between, say , a rhodium plated outlet and a gold plated one as a broad example, is likely about your mood in that moment, and possibly anxiety in trying to find a difference.

My feeling and experience suggests that these things are such a drop in the ocean of a complex signal chain with hundreds or thousands of electrical components, the room, placement, etc — that any audibility is likely imagination.

Other than with respect to Marty, I often wonder about this myself.
 
Other than with respect to Marty, I often wonder about this myself.
I heard Marty’s system once , and it was incredibly dialed in That said, I’m comfortable in my beliefs on the subject.
 
I heard Marty’s system once , and it was incredibly dialed in

Marty I have no doubt about; MikeL I have no doubt about; Todd I have no doubt about, among many others.

Each of them has patience I am not typically capable of.
 
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I have no problem believing that you can’t hear any difference. I can’t listen with your ears, so I take your word for it.

If I were looking at it from your position, I would suggest that putting the Roon core on the network via WiFi (the MacBook) vs hanging the core on the network with a cat 6 cable is probably a major factor.

The other thing I’d probably muse on is the fact that the Nucleus is purpose built for the Roon tasks, and such processors usually offer better efficiency than those for general work.
i've only used Ethernet cables.

there's nothing special with Nucleus hardware,
-Nucleus i3 CPU with 4GB RAM.
-Nucleus+ i7 CPU with 8GB RAM.
With a tweaked roon rock OS to downclock CPU as it uses passive cooling.

There also no official statement from roon that Nucleus improves SQ.

Nucleus is for convenience for the average Joe.
 
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Marty I have no doubt about; MikeL I have no doubt about; Todd I have no doubt about, among many others.

Each of them has patience I am not typically capable of.
and we all started out with completely dedicated spaces. my point is more state of mind that we were not going to compromise. with anything. does not mean we all cookie cutter, but that we are not into settling. which is a lifestyle choice ultimately that is not real world for most. these investments are also anchors too. so not for most people on a number of levels.

so everything matters starts at the core of your hobby viewpoint. is that how you really, really view things? not saying non dedicated room system people don't also think everything matters, but it's different in some ways. of course, there are an infinite number of reasons not to have a dedicated room, and many have little to do with desire.....or attitudes toward everything matters. but some do.
 
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I have no idea about some of these tweaks, like stones and such. I am skeptical, but I have been wrong before, and learned the hard way that everything does seem to matter. However I definitely agree with what Eliot said. If you don't have your system set up and room dialed in really, really well, you won't hear these things. And the more you hear these things, the more you fine tune your room and setup, so it never ends :)

When people on Facebook whine about cables not mattering, I just KNOW they have low-end gear which is not set up optimally. If you have good gear which IS set up optimally or even close to it, there's no way you can't hear a speaker cable. It's almost comical to read some of these debates!
 
and hearing, and listening, are different things. there is a learning/recognition process. an attuning to the consequences of listening subtilties and where it goes musically. that is where the divergence occurs....as we assign different weight and value to things we hear. so one tweak bringing out one attribute has much significance to one listener, but 'meh' to another.
Hi, Mike. Good afternoon to you.

Hearing and listening are definitely two different things. Many of the people I have met in my audio journey simply don't care about the subtleties, nuances and all of the other aspects many of us at the WBF might. All they care about is, "Does it sound good?". If it sounds good, they are as happy as a clam in mud. To others, especially trained listeners, these subtleties and nuances are (or can be) extremely important.

There is nothing wrong with each approach. There is no clear winner in this situation. There is no need for there to be camps staking it out on each side. To each, his or her own. But, you do bring up a good point. What is insignificant to the person casually hearing a selection being played, might very well be considered a significant change to the experienced listener.

I cracked up one time because someone gave me a wonderful but funny compliment at an audio event once. He stated that I could, "hear a fish fart in the middle of a waterfall". Hadn't ever heard that one before. I honestly don't think my hearing is better than anyone else's. There were plenty of people there at the event that heard the same things I heard. The difference was that they didn't pick up on the differences quickly. They had not really "listened" before. They just concentrated on hearing. With that said, when the differences were pointed out and described in detail, they could hone in on the change and identify them moving forward.

There are several people on this forum and a handful on some others that when they speak? I listen and pay particular attention to what they have to say. We may not all hear alike and we all have differences on what does or does not sound good, differing preferences for a reproductive effort, differing ways to achieve audio nirvana but when someone actually listens, instead of simply sitting back and hearing? In my experience, their listening skill set holds more weight than just the casual listener.

Personally, I think it mostly comes down to listening experience. Going through gear throughout one's lifetime, listening to different gear along the way. Sharing observations, learning and yes, listening to what other trained ears have to say is also an important part of honing your own listening skills in.

Getting back to if everything makes a difference. Not everything is detectable or easily identifiable. As aforementioned, there are some things that aren't discovered until later. There are things that by themselves don't make much more than a undetectable difference, but when combined with other tweaks or gear/cables/tubes/fuses/whatever, the cumulative effect of the little things add up. A good example of that would be adding things to help clean up the noise on a streaming rig. Some of the things didn't really seem to help the effort at first but as the signal got cleaner and cleaner? Now, you take one of those undetectable or barely negligible (before) components (or changes) out and now it can make a big difference.

How much of a difference?

Well, you have to go back to Mike's point. It depends on whether or not one is simply hearing the music or listening. The person hearing the music could probably care less. The person listening could consider the difference to now be significant.

Tom
 
Ron, if I were you I’d restate: “Everything makes a difference TO THE SOUND.” Semantics? Sure. But in my brief time hanging around these forums I’ve noted that this is a persnickety crowd.

Now, to answer question, I have both feet firmly in the “no” camp for all the usual reasons. And to save people the effort, here’s what others state when explaining why I’m wrong:

1) Your system isn’t resolving enough (whatever that means.)
2) You don’t listen to enough live music.
3) You listen to the wrong music.
4) You haven’t listened to enough gear in enough setups in enough rooms.
5) You don’t know how to listen.
6) Your room isn’t good enough.
7) If you haven’t tried it, how do you know?

This doesn’t mean I’m part of the ASR crowd. Far from it. In my gear evaluations I simply trust my ears while and try to minimize personal bias whenever I can (knowing that it can’t be eliminated - we’re human, after all.) But I do have a science background - we’re trained to be skeptics - so I question when a tiny change (say, in metallurgy) claims to result in “not subtle” sound improvements.

I agree with you Tangram. Not everything makes a difference to the sound. And I am not one of those who will give those items on your list as a reason that you do not hear differences that may be heard, even obvious, to others. Who knows what the reasons are? It may simply be that some things do not make a difference to the sound in a particular context or for a particular listener. Even if it does, it may not matter, or be better.

I lived with fancy audiophile cables and cords for many years. I then switched them out to basic, non audiophile wires. Some accused me of claiming that wires do not make a difference. Some thought my hearing was bad. I simply made a choice and it went against conventional wisdom.

The truth was just the opposite. I learned that wires make a huge difference, even a power cord to the power supply of my turntable. I could hear it simply by listening and I switched based on my values and reference and preference.

There are some other examples of things that simply do not make a difference to the sound in my system, and I read that they do in other systems. That is fine. I have no idea what the reasons may be, and I am not really interested in trying to understand them. The big stuff matters more: gear choice, room context, how the speakers and seats are located and oriented, and the power delivery. I actually find myself trying to remove things and simply the system. That makes a difference to the sound too, and in my case, for the better.
 
I think a lot of the stuff doesn't matter, and hearing differences between, say , a rhodium plated outlet and a gold plated one as a broad example, is likely about your mood in that moment, and possibly anxiety in trying to find a difference.

My feeling and experience suggests that these things are such a drop in the ocean of a complex signal chain with hundreds or thousands of electrical components, the room, placement, etc — that any audibility is likely imagination.

It depends on context, but in general gold vs rhodium plating can make for significant and easy to hear differences.

This is especially apparent when going "all-in" on one solution, for example using all Furutech rhodium plated NCF AC power gear. There's a lot more than just the plating going on there, the use of pure copper, addressing vibration, and measurably reducing noise for example, but this is a massive night and day difference vs commodity or even decent gold plated gear.

And I have dozens of customers I've personally worked with over many years, so my opinion isn't just a n=1 experience. The degree of correlation shown from system to system with different people who have no contact with each other saying approximately the same thing makes for a statistically significant result, and I am fairly sure of my current conclusions and beliefs on the subject correlate closely with reality.

People are free to believe whatever they like and come to their own conclusions but there's often not enough information to draw firm conclusions, yet we do so anyways. People want to have opinions and think they know, on any subject. It's unbelievable how many people became experts in respiratory viruses, geopolitics and world history over the past few years and will give you firm opinions on these subjects with minimal to no real education on the subject. The same applies to our n=1 experience in audio, even "experts" will cite this one experiment they did decades ago to backup their misguided beliefs.

Here's one example of this issue... At audio shows two companies, one a speaker and one an amp manufacturer, test cables in the context of a system that has completely disregarded cables, wire, crossover component quality, etc. Then they invite people to bring them speaker cables and when they make little to no difference claim it's because, if you have properly designed gear, cables don't really make a difference. Sound familiar? Well, the speakers and components are so poorly made and so colored that no one thing is likely to make any difference whatsoever. The same company made an A/B comparator box using the same cheap and colored sounding parts, and proceeded to test cables with their crappy box in their horrible system, and make the claim that indeed, just like they thought, nobody can hear a difference. This happens ALL THE TIME, and even HARMAN is complicit in this when they did their speaker preference testing, all speakers have the same amps, the same setup, etc. a ML speaker that was broken was used for testing, and setup in the same space they test their conventional speakers. It's absolutely ridiculous and just a very poorly thought out and executed experiment that is not science, it's a setup that is designed to confirm their own inherent biases. It's the exact opposite of scientific.

It's the same kind of logic that lead millions of folks to consume margarine instead of butter and trade-in their healthy diet for a low-fat, high carb diet based on processed foods that is now making the world obese and sick. Bias is all consuming and completely obscured the truth, and the vast majority of folks bought it. Now people lament the fact "experts" are not given the respect they "deserve". This, and countless similar examples, is the reason why.

Audio is great in so many ways. Clarifying the way we draw conclusions and form beliefs is just one of them. Work on any complex system has a similar effect. Cars are another good example. A non-pro weekend mechanic with little experience is often willing to draw conclusions based on information relayed to them by someone who is completely unfamiliar with cars, yet a seasoned mechanic with 100x the experience is MUCH less likely to tell you with any certainty what the problem is given the same incomplete info.

In an audio system, anything that is required for the system to function makes a difference. In addition, anything that has an effect on room acoustics, anything that alters the way things in the system vibrate, anything that adds or reduces noise, makes a difference. Often effects that are claimed to be "too low level to hear", are in fact audible. Almost everything on Ron's list fits this criteria to some degree.
 
Ron,
I loved your 'everything matters' list until I came across:
- the DAC is plugged in when you are listening to vinyl and
- a clock is plugged into a AC outlet in the listening room

Sorry buddy, but that's a bridge too far for me to cross!
Perhaps the lunar phase matters as well? :cool:
(If i'm not mistaken, either HP or JPMoncrieff mentioned something about that decades ago!)
Who knows?
 
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Hi, Marty. It could be Ron's way of saying that his x-nfrmr buzzes in his DAC and he has an old 1980 "flip" clock that interrupts his music every minute when it flips.

1702065567624.png
:D

Ron?

Tom
 
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While I believe everything has a contribution to the overall sound we hear from our systems, I think a more relevant question would be how do you prioritize? Several good members of this forum have bountiful resources and can (and have) lifted every rock and dug deeply into corners teasing out improvements that, in combination, amount to significant investment others cannot imagine. Did those improvements equal what might have been achieved buying e.g. a new pre-amp?

Not meaning to completely derail this thread. Perhaps topic for its own thread (or has been discussed over and over in different contexts.)
 

I had been using this cleaner for 25 years.

Every time I clean all the contacts with this cleaner, the system sound fresh.

The bottle cost around 25$ but may be used more than 10 times.

Thus it is the most affordable tweak.

Yes I agree with that anythng in the chain. bottom or top can affect the sound.
 
Ron,
I loved your 'everything matters' list until I came across:
- the DAC is plugged in when you are listening to vinyl and
- a clock is plugged into a AC outlet in the listening room

Sorry buddy, but that's a bridge top far for me to cross!
Perhaps the lunar phase matters as well? :cool:
(If i'm not mistaken, either HP or JPMoncrieff mentioned something about that decades ago!)
Who knows?
The answer is obviously 282,589,933 ? 1
 
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When people on Facebook whine about cables not mattering, I just KNOW they have low-end gear which is not set up optimally. If you have good gear which IS set up optimally or even close to it, there's no way you can't hear a speaker cable.
As long as your speaker wires are of sufficient gauge, they should be fine. (I already know in advance that we'll "agree to disagree" on that... ;) )

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

My impression is that audiophiles frequently debate tweaks where the purported benefits are not supported by measurements or blind testing (Shakti stones?), while ignoring things that would make huge improvements like room acoustics and DSP room correction products.

An accurate-sounding audio system should have a frequency response similar to the following -
ZWdqk2.jpg

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._and_Calibration_of_Sound_Reproducing_Systems

How do you know if your system's frequency response is optimal if you don't measure (REW, OmniMic)? Having subwoofers in an audio system, measuring, and calibrating everything (DSP) is par for the course for home theater audio systems, yet I don't read much about doing those things in this forum. Just submitting my outsider's perspective for your consideration. No need to break out the pitchforks & tiki torches...
 
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any one got a match? LOL I like Tiki Torches.
 
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Ill pass on every tweek in that list and beyond for a well set up room and well positioned speakers and listening seat.
Mike Drop:::
 

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