Does Everything Make a Difference?

[PhP]

It all depends on what you call the signal. In audio cables the propagation speed of the free electrons, the things that carry the charge, is only about one meter per hour, whereas the electromagnetic wave that pushes the electrons travels at near lightspeed. furthermore, since these are AC circuits we‘re talking about, the net velocity of electrons is zero. The same goes for the electromagnetic wave.

In audio there is 3 camps : the audiophiles that believe in some fancy designs and this permits to hundred of manufacturers to advertise and sale average to bad products. The opposite camp is the electrician camp that believe only to Maxwell theories and others things that they learned when the were at University or Engineer School. They design and sell quite good electronics with 10€ cables etc... (see sometimes surprising discussions on some forums, all based on traditional mesures that mesured absolutely nothing interesting). The 3rd camp is audiophiles, musicians, engineers that listen, believe in what they heard and try sometimes to understand why this happens. I'm engineer, I was teacher in an high regarded French Engineers university in mechanical vibrations also in fondamental mechanics. During those years, we spend endless time to understand or begin to understand about phenomenons that are not completely related to theory or not enough detailed by theories.
When I see some crazy designs in cables, they are really trying to sale expensive cables that change the sound, not improve them. When I see reference DACs, Preamp, amplifiers with steel thin enclosures with absorbing feet, I am sure that it is from camp 2. Then there are few designers that designs in real world, with EMI ambiant, amplifier design with real speaker charge, and in dynamic situation. Their products are awesome.

 

[Analog Scott]

It is often said by many audiophiles that "everything makes a difference." Beyond different cables and different components making a difference, these folks mean that everything makes a difference:

-- the metallurgy of the duplex outlet wall cover plate

-- a block of wood or other material on the top of a component

-- a Shun Mook disc or Shakti Stone on the top of an amplifier

-- the power cord going into the power supply of a turntable motor

-- the DAC is plugged in when you are listening to vinyl

-- interconnects are elevated above the floor

-- the metallurgy of the wire carrying power from the electrical sub-panel servicing the listening room to the outlets into which components are lugged

-- different fuses in a component

-- power cables are not criss-crossed with signal cables

-- an unused amplifier is sitting on the floor of the listening room

-- the connector on the speaker cable is Rhodium plated or not

-- the unused jacks on the pre-amp are plugged up

-- a coffee table is in front of the listening chair

-- an extra piece of wire "dongle" is inserted somewhere

-- a block of wood or steel or granite underneath a component

-- the ASC TubeTrap is diffusion side out or absorption side out

-- a clock is plugged into a AC outlet in the listening room

-- the wire coming out of your Wi-Fi router

-- the USB extension bus ("switch") going to your streamer

-- etc.

Does everything really make a difference? Or do we just believe -- or do we just want to believe -- that everything makes a difference?

Do we want to believe that everything makes a different because we think we can hear a difference?

We are wired to perceive differences where no difference in the actual sound exists if we make comparisons without controls for other influences. The biggest issue is that you can not use an aural memory as a reference to judge real time sound.

 

[Analog Scott]

Good morning, Tangram.

That shouldn't really be considered a "claim". To me, this is part of the problem with communicating about listening observations in an effective and constructive way.

All I can say is that once you have experienced it for yourself, one would realize that's it's not a "claim". It's an actual observation that is clear, present and in some cases, not subtle.

Tom

So is a mirage or many other optical illusions. I have observed amazing acts of magic at magic shows. We are far from infallible when it comes to our observations. But more significantly our aural memories are the issue. And that is extremely limited. We are not human tape recorders.

 

[Analog Scott]

and hearing, and listening, are different things. there is a learning/recognition process. an attuning to the consequences of listening subtilties and where it goes musically. that is where the divergence occurs....as we assign different weight and value to things we hear. so one tweak bringing out one attribute has much significance to one listener, but 'meh' to another.

Hearing and listening are different in that listening is a limited subset of hearing. And this is at the core of why we perceive differences where no actual difference in sound exists. It’s called steered focus. The classic example of this is the “cocktail party” scenario. You walk into a cocktail party in a reverberant room with two dozen conversations going on you can not possibly process everything you hear. But we can steer our focus and clearly hear what different individuals are saying. The net effect is that you can have two very different experiences with exactly the same aural stimulus. You can literally follow different conversations and by doing so reduce all the other conversations to noise. This happens in audio. And it’s not something we can turn off. We simply can’t process everything we hear and we have to steer our focus. You can’t will it away. Just like you can’t follow two dozen conversations in a room simultaneously.

 

[Analog Scott]

I would hear the same effect in a blind test because it's not about my hearing ability, it's about improving the system's ability to reflect changes. The more your system improves (I don't want to use the word transparent) the more it becomes open to reflect changes.

Words often spoken but rarely seen to fruition. Proper DBTs are the grand arbitrator of real audibility. Real differences will be demonstrable in proper DBTs.

 

[Analog Scott]

I agree. Gene (Audioholics) does in fact "debunk" everything and thinks all of the differences we hear in cables is in our heads. He's about as wrong, annoying and useless as Amir over on ASR.

I met Gene a couple years ago at the first Florida Audio Expo when he got Covid. Needless to say, he's a rather stuck-up dude. Unless you're an exhibitor or fellow YT'er, he wants nothing to do with you.

So their utility is directly proportional to their agreement with your personal belief system? How is this not an echo chamber mind set?

in these disagreements I always ask one question, it is the ultimate tell of one’s true “open mindedness.” What would cause you to change your mind on the audibility of cables?

 

[Analog Scott]

I'm pretty sure that the answer is "No" regardless of the listener's age. Of course I'm open to changing my beliefs if either of those audiophile tweaks (or any others) were found to improve sound based on objective measurements and/or blind testing done by a trustworthy independent testing organization.

1,000 X “like” button

 

[Analog Scott]

On this issue usually where the rubber meets the road is the question of time frame. Objectivists want to assess quick A/B switching. Subjectivists reject that methodology and want to live with each of A/B for some time.

Ask the audiophile in question what time frame he/she needs to feel comfortable hearing the difference (this could very well be days or weeks), and then plan a "properly controlled blind listening test" around that exact time frame, and maybe we will have a conclusion we all can agree on for that particular audiophile assessing that particular possible difference.

Where the rubber meets the road is with the use of time synchronized, level matched (when possible) quick switching. It is essential for reliable analytic comparisons. Without that the other variables overwhelm any comparisons between anything other than the broadest of differences and allow for misidentified differences to dominate.

 

[PhP]

It is often said by many audiophiles that "everything makes a difference." Beyond different cables and different components making a difference, these folks mean that everything makes a difference:

-- the metallurgy of the duplex outlet wall cover plate

-- a block of wood or other material on the top of a component

-- a Shun Mook disc or Shakti Stone on the top of an amplifier

-- the power cord going into the power supply of a turntable motor

-- the DAC is plugged in when you are listening to vinyl

-- interconnects are elevated above the floor

-- the metallurgy of the wire carrying power from the electrical sub-panel servicing the listening room to the outlets into which components are lugged

-- different fuses in a component

-- power cables are not criss-crossed with signal cables

-- an unused amplifier is sitting on the floor of the listening room

-- the connector on the speaker cable is Rhodium plated or not

-- the unused jacks on the pre-amp are plugged up

-- a coffee table is in front of the listening chair

-- an extra piece of wire "dongle" is inserted somewhere

-- a block of wood or steel or granite underneath a component

-- the ASC TubeTrap is diffusion side out or absorption side out

-- a clock is plugged into a AC outlet in the listening room

-- the wire coming out of your Wi-Fi router

-- the USB extension bus ("switch") going to your streamer

-- etc.

Does everything really make a difference? Or do we just believe -- or do we just want to believe -- that everything makes a difference?

Do we want to believe that everything makes a different because we think we can hear a difference?

Hi Ron
I don't want to answer to all your questions, but some are interesting:
- metallurgy of the duplex: AC vibes, heavy AC outlet could help
- power cord from the power box of the house to the system : I only put enough gauge
- Fuses : impossible to understand the reason, some are better, a lot are worse that "ordinary" lot plated Shurter
- Plating of cables ends : sure.
- Unused amp in the audio room : no
- unused speakers in the audio room : yes
- a block of steel or garnit under a component : yes, much worse sound (easy to understand by science)
- a block of wood on a chassis : if the chassis is well designed, no, may be worse. I tried many pucks from Walker audio to Shun Mook and many other, no better effect. Just different sound, less open due to additional damping (also easy to mesure). That's why I do not understand high-end companies that have thin steel chassis on their electronics. Probably they have no skills in mechanical vibrations.
- Shatki Stone : some rave, some tells snake oil. I tried recently : sold after 3 days tested... sound is worst.
- Ethernet Switch : yes, but very few are serious. Only 1 I tried is 100% better without any drawback.
- Grounding : yes if properly done with very good artificial earth.
- ...
KR
PHP

 

[Geoffkait]

Re controlled blind tests, a single controlled blind test that has inconclusive or negative results has no significance, and even a test that has positive results is not 100% conclusive. That’s because there are any number of things that can and do go wrong with any audio test, even controlled blind tests. Significance is the product of multiple tests on multiple systems by multiple individuals. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry.

 

[Another Johnson]

The idea that a double blind test is necessary to choose between two options tells me that the options are so similar that it really matters little whether you choose one or the other.

I do not need a DBT to hear the difference between zip cord and Thunderbird Zeros. If I did, I would be an idiot to even think about wasting money on the latter. I might need a DBT to hear the difference between AQ Mythical Creatures and Transparent Connoisseur … and that means to me that they’re both on a similar plain. Serious listeners may choose either based on personal preference. If you don’t hear a difference, and you like what you hear, buy one and get on with your life.

In the zip cord case, if someone prefers it, who else should care? Your ears, your system.

Living with a product for a few months in your own system is the most reliable way to decide whether it’s for you. This may be expensive, but it is reliable.

 

[Geoffkait]

@PhP Engineers, musicians, audiophiles are all in the same camp? Well hush my mouth and call me corn pone. By, the way I happen to like granite under components as well as for mass in isolation systems. Any tendency to ring will be neutralized by the isolation system. Always use thick granite, it won’t ring unless you hit it with a hammer.

 

[Analog Scott]

Re controlled blind tests, a single controlled blind test that has inconclusive or negative results has no significance

That’s simply not true. It is a failure to detect a difference. And that does have significance.

 

[Analog Scott]

Living with a product for a few months in your own system is the most reliable way to decide whether it’s for you. This may be expensive, but it is reliable.

It may be the most reliable way for you personally to decide whether or not you personally *like* something. It is one of the least reliable ways to objectively determine whether or not it has an actual audible effect. There are really good reasons why the sciences rely on controlled tests when testing human perception.

 

[Another Johnson]

It may be the most reliable way for you personally to decide whether or not you personally *like* something. It is one of the least reliable ways to objectively determine whether or not it has an actual audible effect. There are really good reasons why the sciences rely on controlled tests when testing human perception.

My point exactly. The listener should choose what they like best, within their budget.

As for human hearing, you should read Fletcher and Munson’s original work on equal loudness contours. You will note that every subject is an individual sample. The curves are averages over the spectrum of humans and over the range of audible frequencies.

It is arrogant to use the average to declare what’s best for a particular individual.

And, I can’t overemphasize the fact that if you can’t discern the difference to you without a DBT, you are just generating entropy as you search.

 

[Analog Scott]

My point exactly. The listener should choose what they like best, within their budget.

As for human hearing, you should read Fletcher and Munson’s original work on equal loudness contours. You will note that every subject is an individual sample. The curves are averages over the spectrum of humans and over the range of audible frequencies.

It is arrogant to use the average to declare what’s best for a particular individual.

And, I can’t overemphasize the fact that if you can’t discern the difference to you without a DBT, you are just generating entropy as you search.

I have no argument with what you say you like. But claims of audible differences are objective and testable.

 

[treitz3]

I always ask one question, it is the ultimate tell of one’s true “open mindedness.” What would cause you to change your mind on the audibility of cables?

A bit of self reflection may work here. Have you ever asked yourself this question?

Also, please show me a test that verifies human perception of an image or the palpability threof.

Tom

 

[Analog Scott]

A bit of self reflection may work here. Have you ever asked yourself this question?

Also, please show me a test that verifies human perception of an image or the palpability threof.

Tom

Yes I have asked myself that question. I noticed you chose not to answer it yourself.

What is your answer to the question? Answer my question then I will answer yours.

 

[treitz3]

I will not be playing this game. It is apparent to me that you have not heard any difference and while that is all fine and dandy, there are many here that have moved on from this type of argument. It's rather silly because we know better. You will not convince anyone to change their mind, so I would respectfully ask that you stop with the trolling of this forum. We are better than this and honestly, this kind of banter, seemingly just to attract attention, is simply a disruption to our community. Which is against the TOS of this forum.

As a reminder, the TOS can be found here >>> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/help/terms/

To answer your question, I answered this a very long time ago with a simple IC swap out. I am at the point now to where PC's, digital cables.....well, basically any cable within my system can have a make it or break it moment on my rig. Yes, it is measurable. Even down to a fuse. Yes, a fuse.

Now, can we kindly get back to the thread topic, instead of hashing out an outdated and very old (no one wins) debate? Thank you.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

Ron, I operate following this basic principle: if something added or removed from a system is not audible, whether or not it makes a difference does not really matter to me, in terms of my listening experience. I now think life is too short to worry about things that I can not hear from the listening seat.

If I can hear a change of some kind, I ask myself one question: Does it sound more or less natural? I then stick with what sounds more natural and go back to listening to the music.

So, to answer your title question: No, not everything makes a difference.