Does the Audiophile Community Have a Problem?

[tima]

imho, EBITDAC was simply trying to add to the discussion and provided non- defensive articulated responses to your first retort. Why rake him/her over the coals again? There would have been other ways to make these points. It seems if some on this forum would not like to welcome the younger generation of audiophiles and listen to their thoughts, experiences and opinions, responses like this are a great place to start.

Generalized criticisms without any specifics, about problems outside WBF, are unfair to everyone here.

I see no inclination at WBF to treat anyone younger with less respect. Point to posts where a younger person is singled out in a negative way because of their age.

"I'd like to give you the views of someone who is ________________." Fill in the blank with some category to which you think you belong. Do you find that special pleading deserving of being treated differently? That someone younger be given special consideration is on par with claiming women deserve special treatment simply because they are women.

Why not assess a post based on its words rather than on the age, race, sex, etc. etc. of the poster? Why not treat everyone the same?

 

[bonzo75]

It seems if some on this forum would not like to welcome the younger generation of audiophiles and listen to their thoughts, experiences and opinions, responses like this are a great place to start.

Generalized criticisms without any specifics about problems outside WBF are unfair to everyone here.

I see no inclination at WBF to treat anyone younger with less respect. Point to posts where a younger person is singled out in a negative way because of their age.

EBITDAC has thousands of posts he can reply to regarding digital, analog, speaker, amps, etc for his first post. Many start with a question on equipment and set up. Instead he chose to add a random conclusion on a highly charged thread that had not much with audio equipment, and frankly, with minor edits his post can fit into any political forum, facebook, or some other hobby forum. So I agree with Tima that his post was unfair.

 

[bonzo75]

So since all of us are making up theories here is mine.

In other hobbies, whether tennis, golf, etc...you play with people your level. You don't have a tennis match with Federer, so both you and the people you are playing with are having fun.

In audio, on forums, all levels are mixed up. There are dealers mixed with hobbyists...no regulations. There are people commenting with multi million systems on the same board as someone with an Oppo and Rega. Would you feel intimidated asking Federer or Nadal can I play with you? Of course, they might laugh you away. So, many do get intimidated. They have to find a way to add value. Maybe they go off WBF to another forum somewhere. The AVS forum is full of low budget people, as are some UK forums, and there are very WBF people there if at all. They go on to headfi forum. So yes, you engage in discussions where you can add value or you can learn, else you stay away. Each forum can't be all things to everyone.

That has not much, if at all, to do with the language that the people use. I can see why EBITDAC chose to join a non-audio component related discussion. In his mind, it is probably easier for him (and similar lurkers who are not engaging) to engage on this thread rather than one of Ch, Gryphon, Ongaku, or Boulder. But, we can always theorize this had to do with rough language.

 

[andromedaaudio]

But $500 is the same level of purchase decision to most young people as $10,000 is to many of you and the dealers’ customers. They need time to make that decision. That’s on top of the pressures of reduced disposable income in younger millennials and gen z and the fact that urban apartments are tiny.

Why dont you buy second hand gear , there are great buys around for not to much money
For the rest most of the audiophile industry is snobby nonsene unfortunately .
It has a lot in common with the " ART " industry .

 

[nc42acc]

Yet you are evangelizing to all:



I read that article again - it only got worse - there is no 'light'. It is rambling self-righteous finger wagging from someone whose primary motive appears to want to draw attention to himself - a self described audiofool. And you brought him here to lecture us. What did you expect the reaction to be?

But for a few rude exceptions, basic courtesy is rampant at WBF.



Nor are men going to take up crochet en masse. I suspect many women would be insulted at the suggestion that they can't handle an audio forum without growing thicker skin.

Why are you so angry?

 

[Al M.]

EBITDAC has thousands of posts he can reply to regarding digital, analog, speaker, amps, etc for his first post. Many start with a question on equipment and set up. Instead he chose to add a random conclusion on a highly charged thread that had not much with audio equipment, and frankly, with minor edits his post can fit into any political forum, facebook, or some other hobby forum. So I agree with Tima that his post was unfair.

It was always my understanding that in his first post on the thread EBITDAC did not raise specific points about treatment of young people on WBF (where there are few), but on other platforms.

So I don't see the point of your and Tim's attack about his post being "unfair".

 

[bonzo75]

It was always my understanding that in his first post on the thread EBITDAC did not raise specific points about treatment of young people on WBF (where there are few), but on other platforms.

So I don't see the point of your and Tim's attack about his post being "unfair".

I did not respond to any particular point on treatment of young people.

 

[EBITDAC]

Why dont you buy second hand gear , there are great buys around for not to much money
For the rest most of the audiophile industry is snobby nonsene unfortunately .
It has a lot in common with the " ART " industry .

Absolutely an option, and that is how I primarily buy my stuff. Others are less willing to take some of the risk buying used, prefer new, or need some dealer guidance.

 

[ddk]

From the perspective of someone much,much younger than most here, I wholeheartedly agree with the headline of the article Marty posted. Breaking it down into more precise problems:

Traditional snobbery - I’ve seen huge amounts of online gatekeeping in the form of dismissal because components aren’t expensive enough, your room isn’t treated enough, didn’t do x right, etc. I’ve also experienced the same from dealers, with one dealer I do otherwise like dismissing me because I had Heresy’s at the time. They were a stop on my way to AG’s, but that’s all I could afford and fit in my apartment at the time. People will move up the quality spectrum as their earnings power increase.

Anti-snob snobbery - On the other end of the spectrum r/audiophile and many large audiophile Facebook groups are full of people who viciously call anyone out who spends money on components beyond 5k or so, with extra venom reserved for people who don’t fully treat their rooms to the standards of these folks, or have cables that are better than lampcord. I think many of the ASR camp fall into here because they’re DSP’d Class D amp has no distortion or something. I think it’s a cover for jealousy of what some can afford and they know that they can’t and want to bring others down for it.

Women in audio - This definitely happens. Look at the kind of comments Andrew Robinson’s wife Kristi gets all the time in the comments. She stays off camera for a reason when she used to be on. Jana, of EARSPACE felt the need to retreat from her YouTube account after a period of heavy vitriol. She was probably the best person with a camera in the audio game.


The industry also has a structural problem with getting young people to make the jump from HeadFi to HiFi. Dealers are often hard to find outside of urban areas, and when you do find them, many carry products that are aspirational at best to many young people. You need a few systems before you jump to Goldmund. When you do go to a dealer, there is a feel that they’re rushed for time with you, which I get that they gotta pay rent. But $500 is the same level of purchase decision to most young people as $10,000 is to many of you and the dealers’ customers. They need time to make that decision. That’s on top of the pressures of reduced disposable income in younger millennials and gen z and the fact that urban apartments are tiny.

I think to change for the better, the community has to do a better job of addressing younger audiences. Beginner products may need to be more available to hear. People like good sound when they hear it, but the first step is giving people the opportunity to be exposed to it.

Sadly your post, complaining and blaming everything and everyone aside for yourself is typical of our younger generation. The only barrier is lack of willingness to get off one's backside and do the work no one's stopping you but you! Expecting everyone to change and spoon feed your generation is at best ignorant. Instead of moaning you should appreciate all the resources available to your generation that we never had including easy online access to products. Financially your generation has easy access to credit that we never had and I don't believe many here were able to afford their toys in their 20's without working and saving for it. My advice to your generation is to take personal responsibility and earn your way, in this case instead of telling everyone how bad audiophiles community is ask people nicely and we'll share with you. High end is a luxury product that people work for not a right as some believe.

david

david

 

[PeterA]

The industry also has a structural problem with getting young people to make the jump from HeadFi to HiFi. Dealers are often hard to find outside of urban areas, and when you do find them, many carry products that are aspirational at best to many young people. You need a few systems before you jump to Goldmund. When you do go to a dealer, there is a feel that they’re rushed for time with you, which I get that they gotta pay rent. But $500 is the same level of purchase decision to most young people as $10,000 is to many of you and the dealers’ customers. They need time to make that decision. That’s on top of the pressures of reduced disposable income in younger millennials and gen z and the fact that urban apartments are tiny.

I think to change for the better, the community has to do a better job of addressing younger audiences. Beginner products may need to be more available to hear. People like good sound when they hear it, but the first step is giving people the opportunity to be exposed to it.

Hello EBITDAC,

I agree here with DDK. Why does the industry have to do a better job to help you? When I got back into the hobby, I started talking to a dealer friend of mine, I read magazines, and I shopped on Audiogon. I never chatted on audio forums, went to audio shows. I had two friends who also had little money. We bought similar speakers and different amps and sources, and started to listen, compare, and discuss. I dove right in and took chances and tried to learn what I could along the way. The resources are out there for you, and your generation is MUCH more equipped to take advantage of them.

Using your assumed ratios for spending between "most young people and many of you", based on my current system, you would have about $8,000 to buy a system and spend the same relative outlay of your resources that I have done with mine. That gives you a budget of $8,000. I would look at the used market: buy a nice used pair of vintage JBL or Klipsch high efficiency speakers, a used Firstwatt stereo amp (contact Nelson Pass directly for advice) or old tube amp, a tube preamp with built in phono (Tim de Paravicini), a used Denon DD turntable with arm, and a decent new or used MM cartridge for $500-1000 (or some inexpensive digital source. Use stock power cords, basic cables, zero acoustic treatment and devote your time to listening and adjusting the set up. Buy Jim Smith's bood, Get Better Sound. Meet others who are trying to do the same, and simply learn and have fun.

I recently heard a guy's sub $10,000 system and it sounded fantastic. Very natural and could be listened to all day long, zero fatigue. Getting anywhere in this hobby, especially if you want to make progress and get good sound, referenced to live music, requires effort, patience, and a curious mind.

This is not a problem the industry needs to solve for you. You need to navigate what is all around you. Members here have a fair amount of experience and this is not the place where most come to complain and criticize. We are here to learn, share our systems/experiences, and to help each other.

 

[nc42acc]

DDK and Peter I reread what EBITDAC wrote and did not get the impression he was an entitled millennial. I understand both of your frustrations of how the younger generation have such a feeling they are entitled to everything. Lets hopefully let EBITDAC come back with a response.

 

[Al M.]

DDK and Peter I reread what EBITDAC wrote and did not get the impression he was an entitled millennial. I understand both of your frustrations of how the younger generation have such a feeling they are entitled to everything. Lets hopefully let EBITDAC come back with a response.

Totally agree. I found a remarkable disconnect between EBITDAC's actual criticisms, some of which seem perfectly valid, and the charge of a sense of entitlement that I did not detect in his post.

 

[PeterA]

DDK and Peter I reread what EBITDAC wrote and did not get the impression he was an entitled millennial. I understand both of your frustrations of how the younger generation have such a feeling they are entitled to everything. Lets hopefully let EBITDAC come back with a response.

No one called him an entitled millennial. I simply disagree with his comments that the industry needs to do more for young people with low budgets. I suspect most young people have lower budgets. I don’t see that as a big barrier to good sound or to participating in the hobby. There are so many choices available now new and used. And with forums and audio shows and friends in their own generation, there is no shortage of resources to get involved.

Al M and I just heard a friends system. By all standards here at what’s best forum, he has a low budget system and the sound is fantastic.

As I stated in an earlier post, let’s not confuse our complaints with the industry in general with our thoughts of this rather small community on WBF.

 

[nc42acc]

No one called him an entitled millennial. I simply disagree with his comments that the industry needs to do more for people with low budgets. I suspect most young people have lower budgets. I don’t see there is a big barrier. There are so many choices available now new and used. And with forums and audio shows and friends in their own generation, there is no shortage of resources to get involved.

Al M and I just heard a friends system. By all standards here at what’s best forum, he has a low budget system and the sound is fantastic.

As I stated in an earlier post, let’s not confuse our complaints with the industry in general with our thoughts of this rather small community on WBF.

I think EBITDAC meant more audio dealers have a wider range of budget options to hear and choose from? Maybe I was wrong in that assumption.I hope he comes back and will elaborate his point.

Yes I was embellishing the the point with the entitled millennial comment. As a boomer they frustrate me to no end

 

[Al M.]

I think EBITDAC meant more audio dealers have a wider range of budget options to hear and choose from? Maybe I was wrong in that assumption.I hope he comes back and will elaborate his point.

When i started with hi-fi in the early 1990s in The Netherlands, there were stores where you could hear relatively cheap CD players, amps etc. in good comparison setups. Access to such listening opportunities seems much more limited these days.

 

[ddk]

DDK and Peter I reread what EBITDAC wrote and did not get the impression he was an entitled millennial. I understand both of your frustrations of how the younger generation have such a feeling they are entitled to everything. Lets hopefully let EBITDAC come back with a response.

Totally agree. I found a remarkable disconnect between EBITDAC's actual criticisms, some of which seem perfectly valid, and the charge of a sense of entitlement that I did not detect in his post.

You're both entitled to your opinions but please point to any part of his opening post that didn't paint audiophile groups as a bunch of a'holes and then bring up victimhood and supposed victims of bad old audiophiles. As far as entitlement goes we're accusing him of that but if the shoe fits... Let's not forget that this is WBF and how often we've been type cast as snobs and other less flattering adjectives @EBITDAC makes an entrance with.

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

When i started with hi-fi in the early 1990s in The Netherlands, there were stores where you could hear relatively cheap CD players, amps etc. in good comparison setups. Access to such listening opportunities seems much more limited these days.

Absolutely , unfortunately 2 very nice dealers in Nijmegen closed in the last decade .
Some dealers in the netherlands are outright snobs , some are nice but there is often an immediate " obligation " to buy stuff , or only open by appointment
Its not a very relaxed business in general afaic , and definetively in need of a good private noise isolated listening room like Mijn Hifi had

 

[Al M.]

Yes I was embellishing the the point with the entitled millennial comment. As a boomer they frustrate me to no end

Maybe, but a sense of entitlement is probably not as frequent as it is made up to be. I don't see a compelling reason for that much whining about the younger generation. They have plenty of good reasons to complain about the older generations too.

 

[PeterA]

I think EBITDAC meant more audio dealers have a wider range of budget options to hear and choose from? Maybe I was wrong in that assumption.I hope he comes back and will elaborate his point.

Yes I was embellishing the the point with the entitled millennial comment. As a boomer they frustrate me to no end

Why embellish anything? You don’t even know this guy‘s generation or his age. And why do dealerships need to bring in lower-cost gear? Perhaps they have determined that they can’t make money doing so.

My point is one does not need to go to a traditional dealer to get involved in a hobby and learn and get good sound. There are many other resources available.

 

[nc42acc]

Why embellish anything? You don’t even know this guy‘s generation or his age. And why do dealerships need to bring in lower-cost gear? Perhaps they have determined that they can’t make money doing so.

My point is one does not need to go to a traditional dealer to get involved in a hobby and learn and get good sound. There are many other resources available.

Peter excellent points, thank you. What resources are available for new audiophiles to go and evaluate budget equipment? My first thought is try and find a local audiophile group that meets and can share and let borrow equipment?