Does the Audiophile Community Have a Problem?

[PeterA]

Peter excellent points, thank you. What resources are available for new audiophiles to go and evaluate budget equipment? My first thought is try and find a local audiophile group that meets and can share and let borrow equipment?

I think EBITDAC can explain specifically what he wants to do and what barriers he has faced, and then if he wants our genuine advice, he can ask. Before I noticed the components in his signature, and very little else, I already laid out a plan for him in an earlier post, even with a budget extrapolated from his own assumptions of what resources he has and what he thinks we here in general have. For more than than, he needs to be proactive and get specific, just as ddk suggested. Tima also asked that he substantiate his claims. Pushback is natural without substantiated claims or specific examples of barriers in the industry.

 

[nc42acc]

I think EBITDAC can explain specifically what he wants to do and what barriers he has faced, and then if he wants our genuine advice, he can ask. We don't even know if he is rural or urban or what country he is from.

With knowing very little, I already laid out a plan for him in an earlier post, even with a budget extrapolated from his own assumptions of what resources he has and what he thinks we here in general have. For more than than, he needs to be proactive and get specific, just as ddk suggested. Tima also asked that he substantiate his claims. Pushback is natural without substantiated claims or specific examples of barriers in the industry.

Peter again words of wisdom, thank you. I can somewhat relate to EBITDAC with a recent search for new speakers. I understand the frustrations with less than helpful dealers. I hope he returns to answer the questions he has been asked. Thank you.

 

[Al M.]

I think EBITDAC can explain specifically what he wants to do and what barriers he has faced, and then if he wants our genuine advice, he can ask. Before I noticed the components in his signature, and very little else, I already laid out a plan for him in an earlier post, even with a budget extrapolated from his own assumptions of what resources he has and what he thinks we here in general have. For more than than, he needs to be proactive and get specific, just as ddk suggested. Tima also asked that he substantiate his claims. Pushback is natural without substantiated claims or specific examples of barriers in the industry.

So why should he buy, as you had suggested before reading his signature, "a nice used pair of vintage JBL or Klipsch high efficiency speakers, a used Firstwatt stereo amp (contact Nelson Pass directly for advice) or old tube amp, a tube preamp with built in phono (Tim de Paravicini), a used Denon DD turntable..."?

What if that is not his taste? Why should he rely on other peoples' opinions? As I said, when I was younger there were plenty of opportunities to audition inexpensive stuff myself prior to purchase. So yes, I think EBITDAC does have a point. The industry nowadays doesn't make it easy for young people to get into the hobby. And then the older people are whining that the hobby is dying.

 

[ddk]

Peter excellent points, thank you. What resources are available for new audiophiles to go and evaluate budget equipment? My first thought is try and find a local audiophile group that meets and can share and let borrow equipment?

Hi Marty,
As far as I can remember high end was always exclusive not only in this hobby but in everything luxury that's the nature of things and a reality that everyone has to deal with. What's Best Forums is a niche within that niche but for fun let's pretend that people actually care, what do you call a realistic budget for entry level high end system because $500 isn't going to cut it? Give me that and I'll tell you where people can go shopping or where to access information on those systems. It wasn't the job of high end dealers over 40 years ago when I started and I don't see how that of business can cater to the masses today either but at the least this world is more accessible because of the internet and the communities he knocks. You're welcome to call us snobs and elitists but that's what we specialize in, budget and mass market have their own outlets and resources.

When i started with hi-fi in the early 1990s in The Netherlands, there were stores where you could hear relatively cheap CD players, amps etc. in good comparison setups. Access to such listening opportunities seems much more limited these days.

Dear Al,
I remember going to big box stores or mid/low fi dealer with a few hundred bucks burning a hole in my pocket and promptly escorted to the budget room after with 20 pairs of speakers and 3-4 players to stick a CD in and most likely walk out with peace of mind carrying the box that your salesperson said he'll own if he was buying ! To be given that privilege you needed either a relationship with the store or announce that you were there to make a purchase. Today's medium is digital streaming and everyone has access to near unlimited music and video for little to no cost in the palm of their hands. There are numerous resources for people to learn from far more than what we had, people even have the ability to buy, try and return I don't recall that possibility specially with smaller dealers. There are still many big box stores like Best Buy, B&H and others where young and old, male, female and whatever can visit and try things out, but hey their sales staff are ignorant. Then go to a specialist and pay the costs. How many manufacturers and online retailers offer free home trials, you recently purchased products from a member here and a DAC online from a manufacturer with no strings attached, did you have the ability to say Schitt I don't like it give me my money back and walk away without thinking twice? There are no barriers or lack of competing outlets for anyone at any age to get a decent digital system today with relatively small outlay.

david

 

[nc42acc]

P

Hi Marty,
As far as I can remember high end was always exclusive not only in this hobby but in everything luxury that's the nature of things and a reality that everyone has to deal with. What's Best Forums is a niche within that niche but for fun let's pretend that people actually care, what do you call a realistic budget for entry level high end system because $500 isn't going to cut it? Give me that and I'll tell you where people can go shopping or where to access information on those systems. It wasn't the job of high end dealers over 40 years ago when I started and I don't see how that of business can cater to the masses today either but at the least this world is more accessible because of the internet and the communities he knocks. You're welcome to call us snobs and elitists but that's what we specialize in, budget and mass market have their own outlets and resources.


I remember going to big box stores or mid/low fi dealer with a few hundred bucks burning a hole in my pocket and promptly escorted to the budget room after with 20 pairs of speakers and 3-4 players to stick a CD in and most likely walk out with peace of mind carrying the box that your salesperson said he'll own if he was buying ! To be given that privilege you needed either a relationship with the store or announce that you were there to make a purchase. Today's medium is digital streaming and everyone has access to near unlimited music and video for little to no cost in the palm of their hands. There are numerous resources for people to learn from far more than what we had, people even have the ability to buy, try and return I don't recall that possibility specially with smaller dealers. There are still many big box stores like Best Buy, B&H and others where young and old, male, female and whatever can visit and try things out, but hey their sales staff are ignorant. Then go to a specialist and pay the costs. How many manufacturers and online retailers offer free home trials, you recently purchased products from a member here and a DAC online from a manufacturer with no strings attached, did you have the ability to say Schitt I don't like it give me my money back and walk away without thinking twice? There are no barriers or lack of competing outlets for anyone at any age to get a decent digital system today with relatively small outlay.

david

DDK I wasn’t aware that WBF was only for audiophiles of a certain level? I guess the name eludes to that, how stupid of me. So where does this level start at WBF? Is it the brands of equipment you own or the overall cost of your system? I am perfectly fine with this distinction as many audiophile forums cater to a certain niche market. I think people should stay in their lanes so to speak, no reason to post about objectivism on a subjective based forum right.
I saw the system list of EBITDAC when he posted and thought he would fit into the lower tier of what’s best. Maybe I was wrong.

 

[andromedaaudio]

DDK I wasn’t aware that WBF was only for audiophiles of a certain level?

It isnt , its nowhere written that it is .
I have seen plenty of audiophiles with very expensive cables , amps , speakers and what not , swapping gear like there is no tomorrow , never happy listeners .
Id say , if you re a happy listener you have reached the ultimate level.
Magazines tell you buy this , buy that , ....

I can also buy a " Ultra high end system " what ever that may be , if i wanted to , would it make me a happier listener , i dont think so
A "satisfied " listener is what its all about

 

[PeterA]

So why should he buy, as you had suggested before reading his signature, "a nice used pair of vintage JBL or Klipsch high efficiency speakers, a used Firstwatt stereo amp (contact Nelson Pass directly for advice) or old tube amp, a tube preamp with built in phono (Tim de Paravicini), a used Denon DD turntable..."?

What if that is not his taste? Why should he rely on other peoples' opinions? As I said, when I was younger there were plenty of opportunities to audition inexpensive stuff myself prior to purchase. So yes, I think EBITDAC does have a point. The industry nowadays doesn't make it easy for young people to get into the hobby. And then the older people are whining that the hobby is dying.

Al, I am certainly not whining that the hobby is dying. EBITDAC seemed to be complaining that the industry needs to accommodate him. I am suggesting he can do plenty for himself by talking to people and soliciting advice. I was simply laying out an option for him to consider that does not cost much. You and I heard a great pair of used Klipsch speakers that our friend bought for what, $300-500? Is a dealer going to show him that option?

I have no idea about his taste. He has not given us any information. No, he does not have to rely on other's opinions, but what do you think a dealer will tell him: his opinion of course. I suggested he buy and listen, using his own ears presumably with his own taste. I was responding from my phone where I could not see his signature, (my bad or whatever). OK, no more unsolicited advice.

We live in a market based economy. Why should the industry make it easy for young people to get into the hobby? There has to be something in it for the businesses too. Some companies have gone dealerless and sell direct to the public with a trial period. That seems like a good option. So is buying used, taking risk, and selling what you don't like. This is what I did with Pass electronics, bought used and sold sometimes at a profit. It served me well for years. You found cheap options at dealers, now it is harder, but there are still plenty of options. We don't know the barriers he has encountered because he has not described them to us.

 

[DaveC]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/

The above paper explains why there are more men than women interested in hifi equipment as well as any hobby that is focused things rather than people.
It's innate in the same way that men are less agreeable than women (by about two standard deviations) and women are more prone to trait neuroticism by about the same degree. These differences appear to be biological since the same differences are found across all cultures and, interestingly, across all the higher primates.

Jordan, you're on WBF? Wow!

 

[Lagonda]

Why are you so angry?

Now ! Now ! The correct term is grumpy !

 

[geetee1972]

Jordan, you're on WBF? Wow!

I'm a big fan of the great man but this research has nothing to do with him.

 

[ddk]

P

DDK I wasn’t aware that WBF was only for audiophiles of a certain level? I guess the name eludes to that, how stupid of me. So where does this level start at WBF? Is it the brands of equipment you own or the overall cost of your system? I am perfectly fine with this distinction as many audiophile forums cater to a certain niche market. I think people should stay in their lanes so to speak, no reason to post about objectivism on a subjective based forum right.
I saw the system list of EBITDAC when he posted and thought he would fit into the lower tier of what’s best. Maybe I was wrong.

That's absolutely not what I said nor was I alluding to EBITDAC's system only his remarks. My point since you missed it was that there are no barriers to get into budget systems in fact the opposite is true and WBF isn't the best resource looking for $500 starter systems this is a higher end forum by name and by definition, just look at the advertisers here.

david

 

[nc42acc]

That's absolutely not what I said nor was I alluding to EBITDAC's system only his remarks. My point since you missed it was that there are no barriers to get into budget systems and WBF isn't the best resource looking for $500 starter systems this is a higher end forum by name and by definition.

david

David thank you for clarification and I absolutely agree that WBF is not for entry level audiophiles BUT we all started somewhere and IF one were to post asking about lower tier equipment we as veterans to this hobby can politely nudge them in a good direction. You also made note of this process too. I wish I had this theater of knowledge when I was starting out. The internet and social media can be a wonderful thing.

 

[andromedaaudio]

FWIW there are plenty of threads on this forum to search on what to buy if you have a low budget
I m not sure 500 bucks is gonna cut it though

 

[ddk]

David thank you for clarification and I absolutely agree that WBF is not for entry level audiophiles BUT we all started somewhere and IF one were to post asking about lower tier equipment we as veterans to this hobby can politely nudge them in a good direction. You also made note of this process too. I wish I had this theater of knowledge when I was starting out. The internet and social media can be a wonderful thing.

It's about initiative Marty I see all kinds of opportunity for both young and young at heart to learn and enjoy this hobby but it's up to the individual and not high end community to make the effort, our doors are open.

david

 

[nc42acc]

FWIW there are plenty of threads on this forum to search on what to buy if you have a low budget
I m not sure 500 bucks is gonna cut it though

Maybe a USB cable? A few LPs?

 

[nc42acc]

It's about initiative Marty I see all kinds of opportunity for both young and young at heart to learn and enjoy this hobby but it's up to the individual and not high end community to make the effort, our doors are open.

david

David I think that’s all anyone has ever asked. “Our doors are open”

 

[DaveC]

I'm a big fan of the great man but this research has nothing to do with him.

I know... but if you read your post from "It's innate... " onward in JP's voice it sounds like something he'd say, so I was jokingly asking if you're JP himself, here posting on WBF.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Maybe a USB cable? A few LPs?

Or a nice headphone.
1 box solution

 

[spiritofmusic]

Interesting that the thread has evolved into men arguing with men about budget systems, and no more mention of what was the biggest hot potato in that article, the supposed demeaning of women in the industry, and general lack of access for women to the hobby that doesn't include abuse.
I can't decide whether men not wanting to talk about that backs up the sentiment of that part of the article.

 

[ddk]

Interesting that the thread has evolved into men arguing with men about budget systems, and no more mention of what was the biggest hot potato in that article, the supposed demeaning of women in the industry, and general lack of access for women to the hobby that doesn't include abuse.
I can't decide whether men not wanting to talk about that backs up the sentiment of that part of the article.

Both are about supposed victims & victimhood Mark . Either case it's all our fault, old macho misogynist audiophiles!

david