Done with digital

bonzo75

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yes; with my better pressings, no doubt at all.

i got my Rockport Sirius III 20 years ago. and had my vdH Colibri. i have clear memories of those times and it was awesome. epic even.

22 years ago i was using the Basis 2500 with the Graham arm and Koetsu RSP, which a case could be made that the Wadax is on that level on most pressings, but not all. then 21 years ago i upgraded to the Rockport Sirius II SE, which was a big jump up....but not near where the Sirius III went to.

Just trying to help out micro here... When recently you had your EMT 930, did you try a stereo cart on it, and how did it compare to the current digital? What about the mono?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Just trying to help out micro here... When recently you had your EMT 930, did you try a stereo cart on it, and how did it compare to the current digital? What about the mono?
it was an EMT948 (similar direct drive to the 930).

no stereo cartridge this time. but 10 years ago i had an EMT948 with the EMT arm and TSD15 cartridge. it was good but not great, a bit warm and lacking grip and energy. at that time i felt that i liked the EMT948 but not the arm or cartridge. which eventually resulted in Jonathan Tinn and Joel Durand putting together the EMT948/Durand Kairos combo that i ended up with. i felt it was a very fine combo for the dollars. and worked great for my mono Miyajima Infinity 0.7mil mono. i just ran out of room and needed to move it to keep my wife at bay.

as far as that previous EMT948 stereo combo? and my Wadax, i'd choose the Wadax on most pressings i think. but as i said that combo was not ideal. it was a 40 year old broadcast 'system' for radio stations. good pieces, but not a great result from what i heard.

if i put one of my Etsuro Golds on the EMT948 and Kairos no contest, it surpasses the Wadax on most good pressings.
 
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caesar

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I don't know what ripping means. It seems like a weird word to use in this context.

Do you mean playing a vinyl record and using an analog-to-digital converter to dub it to a hard drive?

No, this is not something I would do. It makes no sense to me. Even if MikeL is correct that this adds a bit of creaminess to the digital file I still wouldn't bother to do it --- it seems to me to combine the worst aspects of both formats.
Yes, exactly. The better the analog to digital recorder , no speakers on to pick up noise through the stylus, and let's say you take an original pressing, touched by man's hand 2-3 times, the results are sublime
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Yes, exactly. The better the analog to digital recording , no speakers on to pick up noise through the stylus, and let's say you take an original pressing, touched by man's hand 2-3 times, the results are sublime
what you would hear mostly is the actual tt, arm, cartridge and phono and set-up (and particular pressing most of all, dirty or not).

in my system with active isolation i get zero audible feedback, so the speakers being muted is overrated. it's an issue, but far down the list in significance.

i have done rips with headphones verses my speakers and there is almost zero difference. certainly there are systems where that might matter a lot, but not higher on the vinyl playback foodchain.

and if the pressings have only been played a few times, it sounds like audiophile reissues were used. nothing wrong with that, but the best sounding pressings are not those, except for 45rpm pressings in some cases.

a pristine ripping method has benefits, but to get the best sound it's far more involved.
 
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caesar

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what you would hear mostly is the actual tt, arm, cartridge and phono and set-up.

in my system with active isolation i get zero audible feedback, so the speakers being muted is overrated. it's an issue, but far down the list in significance.

i have done rips with headphones verses my speakers and there is almost zero difference. certainly there are systems where that might matter a lot, but not higher on the vinyl playback foodchain.

Great data point, Mike. But my guy , who really knows what he's doing and has great equipment for this purpose, would disagree, as with all things in audio :)
 

caesar

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I believe a top Nagra is the analog to digital piece... but I didn't probe too deeply , and just enjoying the music

Want to add that he may not want to give away the "secret sauce" either
 

andromedaaudio

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I might add another DAC in the future , and as i dont wanna spend huge amounts of $$

3 spring to mind ZANDEN , ARC ref series and CH precision .
My meitner functions as CD transport USB connector and has the digital outputs to be used with the DACs
 

microstrip

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yes; with my better pressings, no doubt at all.

i got my Rockport Sirius III 20 years ago. and had my vdH Colibri. i have clear memories of those times and it was awesome. epic even.

22 years ago i was using the Basis 2500 with the Graham arm and Koetsu RSP, which a case could be made that the Wadax is on that level on most pressings, but not all. then 21 years ago i upgraded to the Rockport Sirius II SE, which was a big jump up....but not near where the Sirius III went to.

Thanks. Can we know a few tittles of the LPs you are referring as your better pressings? It will be of real help to put a perspective in your findings.
 

Lee

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Very interesting experiment. Can I read about it somewhere? Are the samples of sound available somewhere to listen to?
I might be able to make them available. But it would not be the whole picture as we compared the playback to the live event in real time during a long soundcheck.
 

Lee

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my 2 cents after with 5 years with the MSB Select II and the Extreme, now 6 months with the Wadax combo, is that both pcm and dsd are awesome, and if you have a strong preference then you have not yet heard them both 'right'. at the top of the digital hardware food chain there is really not that much to choose between them. not claiming there is no difference, but unless you isolate completely native recordings in one or the other format then compare....what are you actually comparing? mostly with dsd it's PCM sourced files converted to dsd. they are 1 and 1a. and only the more flexible work tools make pcm a bit more usable, so lots more music is made with it. dsd files are smaller.

OTOH many dacs do favor one or the other, or maybe filter settings can do that, or server settings. what is causing what outcome? takes some homework to sort that out.
While I agree that both DSD and PCM sound can sound truly spectacular, I don’t believe it’s incorrect to have a preference. But it does take live instruments recorded and played back in real time perhaps to have an informed opinion.

It’s also a bit challenging as you need to use high quality ADCs and DACs for the best comparison possible.
 

Al M.

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With almost every non-physical media front end I've listened to I've heard electronic artifacts that I don't hear with SACD's in my system.

This.

A lot of computer audio (local files or, often worse, streaming) sounds artificial and synthetic. As I said, not all of it does, but it is really hard to get it right. And since there are probably a lot of people with suboptimal computer audio, not many will have heard the capability of digital to convey authentic, believable timbre. Of course, in comparison vinyl unquestionably rules under those circumstances.

With competent playback of physical disc you don't have those problems with synthetic, plasticky sound that plague much of computer-audio.
 

Mike Lavigne

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While I agree that both DSD and PCM sound can sound truly spectacular, I don’t believe it’s incorrect to have a preference. But it does take live instruments recorded and played back in real time perhaps to have an informed opinion.

It’s also a bit challenging as you need to use high quality ADCs and DACs for the best comparison possible.
the most important issue is which format/resolution is the native one. next is recording quality and performance is many levels more significant than format character with the Wadax combo.....at equivalent levels. 16/44<->dsd, 24/48, 24/88, 24/96<->2xdsd, 24/176, 24/192, 24/352<->4xdsd. i don't have any 8xdsd files.

so many more high rez pcm recordings = many more great pcm recordings than dsd. many dsd files are pcm sourced or somehow pcm involved in the mix/mastering too.

mostly the tip top level of both pcm and dac native recordings use the same adc's (Merging Technology) and the native results are very close.
 

Mike Lavigne

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When is wadax going into ADC ?
Is there any info on that
not seen it, don't expect it.

typically it does not go that direction. simply because no way the pro audio world is paying for Wadax level build. what you see is pro gear morphing into consumer stuff. EMM Labs, dCS, Merging Tech, etc. etc.

the company Wadax is involved in the hearing aid/medical field i think. lots of revenue in that direction with the much bigger market possibilities.

every kid interested can do pro audio in their bedroom.

i could see the error correcting chips Wadax has created being licensed for the pro audio world.....at some point. i have no inside info on that, just a random thought.
 

Lee

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the most important issue is which format/resolution is the native one. next is recording quality and performance is many levels more significant than format character with the Wadax combo.....at equivalent levels. 16/44<->dsd, 24/48, 24/88, 24/96<->2xdsd, 24/176, 24/192, 24/352<->4xdsd. i don't have any 8xdsd files.

so many more high rez pcm recordings = many more great pcm recordings than dsd. many dsd files are pcm sourced or somehow pcm involved in the mix/mastering too.

mostly the tip top level of both pcm and dac native recordings use the same adc's (Merging Technology) and the native results are very close.
Agree that there are many more PCM recordings.

I find it interesting that on the Wadax you find DSD sounds similar to 16/44. I may have to make a trip to Washington state sooner rather than later. ;)
 

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