EMM Labs DS-EQ1 Phono Pre-amp - From Vinyl To Plastic
EMM Labs DS-EQ1 Phono Pre-amp. The first independently and purpose designed phono amplifier for the DS Audio optical cartridge range.
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DS Audio Grand Master + EMM Labs DS-EQ1
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
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Hi guys (& gals?)
Hi Ron
Thanks for sharing your experience at your friends house regarding the DS Audio Grand Master cartridge.
One of my best friends in my area (Suburb north of Chicago) owns a brick & mortar hifi store (remember those?) and he has on display the Grand Master cartridge with their $8500.00 power supply/eq and when I asked him what he thought of the sound quality here is what he told me: “I never knew analog could sound that good”. For those of you who would like to know, the table and arm it was mounted on is the AMG Forte with their Turbo 12” arm. The amps and preamp is the Audio Research Ref 160 mono blocks and the Ref 10. The speakers are the new Wilson Alex’s. This comment is coming from a guy who has been in the business for over 44 years and who has always been a diehard analog guy who has heard and sold just about every mc cartridge on the planet.
In hanging out at the shop, I have personally watched him set up hundreds of tables for customers and the store.
I am, as you know, about to buy a new cartridge and this is one I am VERY interested in. I think it was brilliant of DS Audio to allow any of their power supply/eq’s to Be compatible with any of their cartridges. Here is my only concern. I have asked a few people who claim they have heard at least one of if not all of the Their cartridges and all 4 of these people have said the same exact thing, they all agree that the attributes are an unbelievably quiet noise floor which allows the listener to hear things in the mix that were previously hidden, stunning bass, enormous soundstage etc. But, and here is the part that has me worried, they all said that they just lack the supreme musicality of some of the better mc cartridges when set up properly. They all agree that the sound seems to target and be most similar to the best digital sources. They all agreed, at first you are blown away with how quiet the noise floor is and how articulate the Bass is but, in the long run, they are not very musical and just not their “cup of tea”. Please don’t misunderstand what I am getting at, I have never personally heard one and most importantly, I am not saying Ron is wrong. All I am saying is, if a few people are telling me that a product lacks musicality, that concerns me.
I’m going to have to get over to my friends store and take a listen for myself. We all know how easy it is, when listening to something new, to be blown away at first and then, after a few weeks we go back and listen again to the exact same thing and we are sometimes not as blown away as we first were. I’m pretty sure that’s happened to all of us at some point.
Even in Jonathan Valin’s review, he talked about many different positive attributes and mentioned at least 15 different positive traits but if you go back and read the review again, not once did he use the word musicality. For me, musicality is probably one of the most, if not THE most important attribute I must have in a piece of gear. If a piece of gear isn’t musical, it’s a deal breaker. Doesn’t matter if it’s a cartridge or a preamp or whatever. If I find a piece of supposedly great audio lacks musicality, no matter how quiet or how great the bass is, I either return it or sell it. The bottom line is, I have to go listen for myself. After I do, I’ll let you guys know what I heard. Thanks and take care.
Best regards
Scot
Hi Ron
Thanks for sharing your experience at your friends house regarding the DS Audio Grand Master cartridge.
One of my best friends in my area (Suburb north of Chicago) owns a brick & mortar hifi store (remember those?) and he has on display the Grand Master cartridge with their $8500.00 power supply/eq and when I asked him what he thought of the sound quality here is what he told me: “I never knew analog could sound that good”. For those of you who would like to know, the table and arm it was mounted on is the AMG Forte with their Turbo 12” arm. The amps and preamp is the Audio Research Ref 160 mono blocks and the Ref 10. The speakers are the new Wilson Alex’s. This comment is coming from a guy who has been in the business for over 44 years and who has always been a diehard analog guy who has heard and sold just about every mc cartridge on the planet.
In hanging out at the shop, I have personally watched him set up hundreds of tables for customers and the store.
I am, as you know, about to buy a new cartridge and this is one I am VERY interested in. I think it was brilliant of DS Audio to allow any of their power supply/eq’s to Be compatible with any of their cartridges. Here is my only concern. I have asked a few people who claim they have heard at least one of if not all of the Their cartridges and all 4 of these people have said the same exact thing, they all agree that the attributes are an unbelievably quiet noise floor which allows the listener to hear things in the mix that were previously hidden, stunning bass, enormous soundstage etc. But, and here is the part that has me worried, they all said that they just lack the supreme musicality of some of the better mc cartridges when set up properly. They all agree that the sound seems to target and be most similar to the best digital sources. They all agreed, at first you are blown away with how quiet the noise floor is and how articulate the Bass is but, in the long run, they are not very musical and just not their “cup of tea”. Please don’t misunderstand what I am getting at, I have never personally heard one and most importantly, I am not saying Ron is wrong. All I am saying is, if a few people are telling me that a product lacks musicality, that concerns me.
I’m going to have to get over to my friends store and take a listen for myself. We all know how easy it is, when listening to something new, to be blown away at first and then, after a few weeks we go back and listen again to the exact same thing and we are sometimes not as blown away as we first were. I’m pretty sure that’s happened to all of us at some point.
Even in Jonathan Valin’s review, he talked about many different positive attributes and mentioned at least 15 different positive traits but if you go back and read the review again, not once did he use the word musicality. For me, musicality is probably one of the most, if not THE most important attribute I must have in a piece of gear. If a piece of gear isn’t musical, it’s a deal breaker. Doesn’t matter if it’s a cartridge or a preamp or whatever. If I find a piece of supposedly great audio lacks musicality, no matter how quiet or how great the bass is, I either return it or sell it. The bottom line is, I have to go listen for myself. After I do, I’ll let you guys know what I heard. Thanks and take care.
Best regards
Scot
Thank you for this post, Scot.
I completely agree with the musicality* question/concern/open issue. By no means do I consider my initial first impressions in Post #1 to be my final opinion on the subject.
Please note my comments 10) and 12) in the opening post.
Note that I said that the DS Audio Grand Master, for me, could replace the cartridges which, to my ears, are on the transparent/neutral/leading edge transient end of the subjective cartridge sonic spectrum. For me personally, it would replace something like a Lyra Atlas or a vdH Colibri; it would not replace my ZYX UNIverse Premium or a Grado Labs Epoch3 or something on the Koetsu end of the subjective cartridge sonic spectrum. The Grand Master will not be mistaken for a Rosewood Signature Platinum or a Grado Epoch3.
I also think it is the perfect cartridge for somebody transitioning to analog from digital.
Interestingly, and, perhaps, tellingly, my friend whose system I heard prefers cartridges which I, personally, tend to find to be a little bit too neutral/slightly aggressive for me, such as the Dynavector XX-1 and the Lyra Atlas. (For the record, I have never cared for the Lyra Atlas in any system which I have heard it. I have loved the vdH Colibri in several specific systems in which I have heard it. The vdH Colibri remains a conundrum for my ears and my personal sonic preferences.)
I keep telling each of my friends in the Los Angeles audio group and the Long Beach audio group that I really want each of them to hear this optical cartridge system for himself to provide us with additional opinions.
*I tend to not use the term "musicality" myself, as I find it to not have inherent and widely-agreed meaning -- but I think I know what you mean by the term. I think "musicality" is even a more difficult term to define than the term "natural."
I completely agree with the musicality* question/concern/open issue. By no means do I consider my initial first impressions in Post #1 to be my final opinion on the subject.
Please note my comments 10) and 12) in the opening post.
Note that I said that the DS Audio Grand Master, for me, could replace the cartridges which, to my ears, are on the transparent/neutral/leading edge transient end of the subjective cartridge sonic spectrum. For me personally, it would replace something like a Lyra Atlas or a vdH Colibri; it would not replace my ZYX UNIverse Premium or a Grado Labs Epoch3 or something on the Koetsu end of the subjective cartridge sonic spectrum. The Grand Master will not be mistaken for a Rosewood Signature Platinum or a Grado Epoch3.
I also think it is the perfect cartridge for somebody transitioning to analog from digital.
Interestingly, and, perhaps, tellingly, my friend whose system I heard prefers cartridges which I, personally, tend to find to be a little bit too neutral/slightly aggressive for me, such as the Dynavector XX-1 and the Lyra Atlas. (For the record, I have never cared for the Lyra Atlas in any system which I have heard it. I have loved the vdH Colibri in several specific systems in which I have heard it. The vdH Colibri remains a conundrum for my ears and my personal sonic preferences.)
I keep telling each of my friends in the Los Angeles audio group and the Long Beach audio group that I really want each of them to hear this optical cartridge system for himself to provide us with additional opinions.
*I tend to not use the term "musicality" myself, as I find it to not have inherent and widely-agreed meaning -- but I think I know what you mean by the term. I think "musicality" is even a more difficult term to define than the term "natural."
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If you map the absence of an adverb (or any other word) in a review to the presence or absence of some quality or characteristic of the review subject, you're on your own.
"Musicality" may be my least favorite word for audio or tied with the word "slam".
I take "musicality" to mean either a) "it sounds like music", or b) "I like it." Otherwise it is largely an uninformative word. Trying to define it seems a waste of time. There is no hidden meaning that unlocks a door to enlightenment. It does have a certain lilting quality when spoken which may be its primary attraction. It is a word whose users say "well I know what it means when I say it."
Though strangely Tim it might just imply a more central and original meaning and purpose to this wonderful hobby if the systems we create can serve musicality and the core purpose of connecting us to music rather than rocking our faberge eggs off over the sounds and the other distractions that systems can present.
I am sitting here tonight enjoying the system I have not just because it makes it easier to differentiate between recordings (which is for me great but also of also lesser importance) but rather because I believe it makes it easier for me to hear the music and to understand the differences in the musician’s artistry and in musical performances. To just simply more easily hear that the structure and approach that Bruno Walter brings to Mahler’s Resurrection symphony is more taut and restrained than Kubelik’s. There is a different more austere grace and just a less overt poetry. I love both conductors in Mahler but the system is so coherent and aligned with the flow of music it then conveys to me all expression easier than any other system I have had. It delivers me past the sound and to the music more easily. The appreciation of music and artistry is simply better conveyed by the system creating less distraction of noise and somehow by keeping me in tune with the signal and more centrally within the grasp of a more direct musical connection. It’s the immediate inherent tunefulness, the flow and then in me the corresponding stillness that the movement and energy of the music instills. Musical connection.. it is the alchemy and I am in the alembic
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Try Kubelik for Symphony 1 - it's almost lyrical. Either the '71 DG version or his later ('79?) recording on Audite.
Has anyone purchased a DS Audio cartridge since we started this thread?
Yes I have a DS Audio Grand Master cartridge purchased! I’m going to demo the EMM-Labs EQ1 with it, and will also have a DS-E1 in house at the same time for comparison. Likely install date in a few weeks. Will post impressions once installed.
I also heard the DS Grand Master and EMM combo recently (likely in the same system you did @Ron Resnick ), and I was very impressed. We didn't do extensive comparisons but had been listening to a Dyna XV-1S previously. The DS-EMM chain immediately showed a lower noise floor, more clarity, and, especially, more detail and precision in the bass. Again, I didn't have time to do any extensive back and forth--though my very generous host certainly would've indulged me--so I can't talk about potential downsides to the DS-EMM. (And I probably haven't heard enough other $$$ carts to have an opinion anyway.) But color me impressed and intrigued.
I wonder if the other DS optical carts also impress at their price points. I'm certainly looking into them now.
I wonder if the other DS optical carts also impress at their price points. I'm certainly looking into them now.
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Hi Jeffrey_t
The DS Audio Grand Master optical cartridge retails for $15,000.00. The matching two chassis power supply/eq has a retail price of $45,000.00. Therefore the.total cartridge system sells for an eye watering price of $60,000.00!
DS Audio was very clever. They designed it so that any cartridge can be used with any power supply/eq. So, just as an example, you could buy the Grand Master cartridge at $15,000.00 and use it with one of their mid level power supply/eq’s to get started. My local dealer has on display a Grand Master cartridge with their $8500.00 power supply. Doing it this way would allow you to upgrade the power supply as funds become available.
Best regards
Scot
The DS Audio Grand Master optical cartridge retails for $15,000.00. The matching two chassis power supply/eq has a retail price of $45,000.00. Therefore the.total cartridge system sells for an eye watering price of $60,000.00!
DS Audio was very clever. They designed it so that any cartridge can be used with any power supply/eq. So, just as an example, you could buy the Grand Master cartridge at $15,000.00 and use it with one of their mid level power supply/eq’s to get started. My local dealer has on display a Grand Master cartridge with their $8500.00 power supply. Doing it this way would allow you to upgrade the power supply as funds become available.
Best regards
Scot
Yes they were very clever, create a cartridge that requires it's own power supply. Incremental purchase from the beginning and more loyalty from the consumer over the long run.
Are different tonearm attributes more or less important with a photo phono cart?
I owned the W2 version and was very impressed with the sound. It was the apparent fragility that ended my DS Audio period. I have been a vinyl spinner for 40 years and never broken a stylus until the W2, then 3 in one year at $3,000 each. I would need some evidence of a more robust construction or a less expensive repair to go back.
I owned the W2 version and was very impressed with the sound. It was the apparent fragility that ended my DS Audio period. I have been a vinyl spinner for 40 years and never broken a stylus until the W2, then 3 in one year at $3,000 each. I would need some evidence of a more robust construction or a less expensive repair to go back.
Ken Kessler refers to the Grand Master cartridge in his review of the Soundsmith Strain Gauge:
hifinews.com
Soundsmith SG/SG-230 Cartridge
Singular driving force behind the revival of the strain gauge generator system first seen in phono pick-ups from the '60-70s, Soundsmith's latest offering is nothing if not flexible Hardly scientific, I know, but I am predisposed toward components that cause binge-listening.
hifinews.com
Scericson, why should be the DS Audio cartridges fragile? What is too weak in your opinion? What had exactly happened that you have damaged them 3 times in following?
I would like to second the question for matching tonearms. What do you think of the 14” Kuzma 4Point?
I would like to second the question for matching tonearms. What do you think of the 14” Kuzma 4Point?
This thread reminded me of the Zellaton Room at Munich 2019.
I ended up spending quite a bit of time in here. I decided I really liked the speakers, but that the value for money was poor.
Having heard DS Audio cartridges at shows before a few times, this was the source that made me think again about DS Audio. I'd basically written them off in my head because of the poor linearity above 10K. I'd be really interested to think what a 15 year old would make of one with a disk with a lot of prominent HF. Even the Grand Master is up about 4DB at 20Hz, which is better than the rest of the range.
Having read Ken Kessler's April 2021 review of the Grand Master, and compared to Ron's description, I find Ron's comments to really hit the spot where Ken IMHO has failed to isolate the salient aspects of what makes these cartridges sound different.
Admittedly this was only the Master 1, but it definitely falls in line with the sort of experience Ron has had with the Grand Master.
I'm not really enthusiastic about vinyl in the year 2021, and I rarely play it these days. But I appreciate many people still love it.
Still, this was a great system. It's just a shame they seemed to have that same piece of vinyl playing most of the time.
The drivers used in the Zellaton are, in my opinion, top notch.
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