Dsd - how far does one go?

PipelineSDM is just to more efficiently utilize multiple cores in the processor when resampling PCM to DSD. The directSDM is the important one. It's under the DSDiff/DFF settings. If that box isn't checked, all the audio is being upsampled and processed through the same filter algorithms, as well and going through the multibit conversion process. So yes very hard to tell apart in this case.

Okay Blizz. Thanks for that - will check tomorrow evening and listen again. I don't think I do have it selected then.

On another note, I think you should do the dsd64 file test from Bruce. I would be curious which file you chose and how you rank them. Bruce would have to change the numbers of them to ensure blinding now. You game?
 
Okay Blizz. Thanks for that - will check tomorrow evening and listen again. I don't think I do have it selected then.

On another note, I think you should do the dsd64 file test from Bruce. I would be curious which file you chose and how you rank them. Bruce would have to change the numbers of them to ensure blinding now. You game?

Yes once my system is back together I will. I'm just waiting for some parts.
 
Yes once my system is back together I will. I'm just waiting for some parts.

You'll be gratified to know that I chose the Merging Horus blind...
 
You'll be gratified to know that I chose the Merging Horus blind...

Well they say it's the best ADC on the market today. Also Pyramix is supposed to be the best DAW package. Now you should get the same vinyl Bruce used and make your own DSD 64 rip to compare. This will help you determine if it would be more cost effective to send your vinyl collection to Bruce to rip with his gear, or spend the money to buy the same level of gear yourself. But the ultimate test would be if Bruce provided quad DSD vinyl rips to compare. Because that's what he can offer with his service.
 
PipelineSDM is just to more efficiently utilize multiple cores in the processor when resampling PCM to DSD. The directSDM is the important one. It's under the DSDiff/DFF settings. If that box isn't checked, all the audio is being upsampled and processed through the same filter algorithms, as well and going through the multibit conversion process. So yes very hard to tell apart in this case.

It happens that I have a friend who is a Grammy-winning recording engineer, and also a very strong and vocal supporter of DSD, the only type of recordings he makes. His position is that 2x or 4x DSD makes very little difference in playback, though it does make his life easier in the earlier stages of recording production. He uses Merging products for recording, and he has an extraordinary playback monitoring system, which I have heard. But, he is quite comfortable with 1x DSD playback of his and others' recordings down- rezzed from higher DSD sampling rates.

As I have posted before, I have heard limited comparative examples of 1x vs. 2x DSD from the same analog master, also vs. 192k and 352k PCM. I and a friend, who is a noted recording and equipment critic, heard elusive, ever so slight differences not really at all worth going to the mat about. I conclude that like many other things, the ear has its limits. And, personally, we did not hear a difference between DSD and hi Rez PCM worth arguing about. It is minuscule, in my opinion and that of my reviewer friend. Ah, but, I know, I have not heard 4xDSD. It would make all the difference! Yeah, sez you.

Going beyond with ever bigger numbers might make great marketing copy and forum fodder, but significant comparative audibility is just not there. Unless, that is, you wish to direct us to high quality double blind listening studies that vindicate your so enthusiastically zealous, rigidly held views. Until then, I remain unconvinced, based on your boringly repetitive testimony alone, or even of Miska's or legions of HQP adherents, or other 2, 4, 8, 16, 32... X DSD adherents based on pure anecdotal, subjective testimonials under uncontrolled conditions.

I think there are much more significant and useful areas of potential sonic improvement than the playback resolution numbers game. Ever higher Rez cannot hurt, but does it help in any meaningful, audible way toward gaining audio nirvana? There are other factors that matter much more, IMHO.
 
It happens that I have a friend who is a Grammy-winning recording engineer, and also a very strong and vocal supporter of DSD, the only type of recordings he makes. His position is that 2x or 4x DSD makes very little difference in playback, though it does make his life easier in the earlier stages of recording production. He uses Merging products for recording, and he has an extraordinary playback monitoring system, which I have heard. But, he is quite comfortable with 1x DSD playback of his and others' recordings down- rezzed from higher DSD sampling rates.

As I have posted before, I have heard limited comparative examples of 1x vs. 2x DSD from the same analog master, also vs. 192k and 352k PCM. I and a friend, who is a noted recording and equipment critic, heard elusive, ever so slight differences not really at all worth going to the mat about. I conclude that like many other things, the ear has its limits. And, personally, we did not hear a difference between DSD and hi Rez PCM worth arguing about. It is minuscule, in my opinion and that of my reviewer friend. Ah, but, I know, I have not heard 4xDSD. It would make all the difference! Yeah, sez you.

Going beyond with ever bigger numbers might make great marketing copy and forum fodder, but significant comparative audibility is just not there. Unless, that is, you wish to direct us to high quality double blind listening studies that vindicate your so enthusiastically zealous, rigidly held views. Until then, I remain unconvinced, based on your boringly repetitive testimony alone, or even of Miska's or legions of HQP adherents, or other 2, 4, 8, 16, 32... X DSD adherents based on pure anecdotal, subjective testimonials under uncontrolled conditions.

I think there are much more significant and useful areas of potential sonic improvement than the playback resolution numbers game. Ever higher Rez cannot hurt, but does it help in any meaningful, audible way toward gaining audio nirvana? There are other factors that matter much more, IMHO.

I find how the DAC handles things is the most important factor. This is something thats always left out of the equation. It's funny how the most important factor is often never discussed. I can only base information pertaining to this topic based on the combination of my personal experiments, and others who have the gear and have preformed the same experiments. I can't vouch for those who have an opinion based on 0 experience.

Also since this thread is only about DSD resolutions, talking about other ways to improve the system such as speaker placement, ear candles, amplifier damping factor, PCM vs DSD or anything unrelated to DSD resolutions making a bigger sonic impact, it's off topic for the thread. Because this thread is about DSD resolutions.
 
Quad DSD does it for me: stupendous reproduction of attack transients and all concomitant qualities.

I also asked about where it should stop, if at all. It appears Miska (maker of HQ Player) found some measured optimal playback with Quad, some of the qualities of which are lost with higher-rate DSD. I believe he put the info, with graphs of measurements on his blog over at CA a while back.
 
Quad DSD does it for me: stupendous reproduction of attack transients and all concomitant qualities.

I also asked about where it should stop, if at all. It appears Miska (maker of HQ Player) found some measured optimal playback with Quad, some of the qualities of which are lost with higher-rate DSD. I believe he put the info, with graphs of measurements on his blog over at CA a while back.

You have the Ifi micro don't you? It has a DSD direct bypass mode. This is why you really notice the difference.

Yes here's his measured IFI micro IMD results out of the analog outputs comparing 32/44.1 PCM and DSD 512 which bypass the onboard SRC/SDM/Multibit conversion section of the chip.

Not only do his filters subjectively sound better, they also improve measured performance by allowing bypass of the chips internal SDM/SRC. This is regardless if the original file was PCM or native DSD to begin with. With a DAC that uses the Sabre chip for example, the subjective impressions of his filters may be preferred, but measured performance would likely be the same. As the signal still passes through the same path either way.

iDSDmicro-imd-std.pngiDSDmicro-imd-dsd512.png
 
You have the Ifi micro don't you? It has a DSD direct bypass mode. This is why you really notice the difference.

No, iFi iDSD Nano with a recent firmware enabling Quad-rate DSD even on Mac through DoP.
 
No, iFi iDSD Nano with a recent firmware enabling Quad-rate DSD even on Mac through DoP.

I thought you were using a Linux based NAA?
 
I thought you were using a Linux based NAA?

Unfortunately I hit quite a few snags with my Linux experimentation on my Macbook Pro because Apple made it really, really difficult to do so.

Using the MBP with Mac OS X as NAA did work though.

I am currently using a single-computer configuration with A+ but planning a full server + NAA + HQ Player configuration, maybe for this year or the next.
 
Unfortunately I hit quite a few snags with my Linux experimentation on my Macbook Pro because Apple made it really, really difficult to do so.

Using the MBP with Mac OS X as NAA did work though.

I am currently using a single-computer configuration with A+ but planning a full server + NAA + HQ Player configuration, maybe for this year or the next.

The Nuc based system is super cheap on my streamer thread. It just got even cheaper as well by the OS being free now. $170 is all it takes to build one. The NAA daemon can run right on the internal eMMC flash chip.
 
The Nuc based system is super cheap on my streamer thread. It just got even cheaper as well by the OS being free now. $170 is all it takes to build one. The NAA daemon can run right on the internal eMMC flash chip.

Will check it out in due time, I still have a lot of research to do to catch up with the latest in motherboards, etc... server-side as I am going to use the computer for a couple of high-performance number-crunching tasks as well.
 
The Nuc based system is super cheap on my streamer thread. It just got even cheaper as well by the OS being free now. $170 is all it takes to build one. The NAA daemon can run right on the internal eMMC flash chip.

I checked that streamer thread...

eeehhhh, maybe you forgot who was explaining to you how to use HQ Player in the ideal mode over at CA (me), i.e. in client-server mode, using a very small device as NAA.

In that case, you probably also forgot that I mentioned that I wouldn't want a general-purpose motherboard for use as NAA.

For the NAA, I am looking for a much, much simpler device.
 
Well they say it's the best ADC on the market today. Also Pyramix is supposed to be the best DAW package. Now you should get the same vinyl Bruce used and make your own DSD 64 rip to compare. This will help you determine if it would be more cost effective to send your vinyl collection to Bruce to rip with his gear, or spend the money to buy the same level of gear yourself. But the ultimate test would be if Bruce provided quad DSD vinyl rips to compare. Because that's what he can offer with his service.

This was not a vinyl recording Blizz - assume it was tape but Bruce will need to confirm. I would partake in the experiment but alas it would never be cost effective for me as I am in UK and shipping a vat of vinyl over there will be massive expense.
 
I checked that streamer thread...

eeehhhh, maybe you forgot who was explaining to you how to use HQ Player in the ideal mode over at CA (me), i.e. in client-server mode, using a very small device as NAA.

In that case, you probably also forgot that I mentioned that I wouldn't want a general-purpose motherboard for use as NAA.

For the NAA, I am looking for a much, much simpler device.

This was chosen based on sound quality and price. Yes you can get a cheaper unit like raspberry pi, but it won't sound as good. But I agree the upcoming Sonore microrendu should have some advantages over the NUC. But it also won't be $170 including RAM I can assure you of that.
 
This was not a vinyl recording Blizz - assume it was tape but Bruce will need to confirm. I would partake in the experiment but alas it would never be cost effective for me as I am in UK and shipping a vat of vinyl over there will be massive expense.

I will once my audio system is back up and running.

Would it cost over $100000? That's what it would take for a rig like Bruce's. Plus the time and effort and knowhow he has to use the gear.

I would just ship the whole vat, sell off the vinyl rig and ADC, and sit back and wait for Bruce to make SOTA rips in quad DSD. He can ship the vat of records back along with some hard drives loaded with the best rips you will ever hear from you collection.

But that's just me :)
 
I will once my audio system is back up and running.

Would it cost over $100000? That's what it would take for a rig like Bruce's. Plus the time and effort and knowhow he has to use the gear.

I would just ship the whole vat, sell off the vinyl rig and ADC, and sit back and wait for Bruce to make SOTA rips in quad DSD. He can ship the vat of records back along with some hard drives loaded with the best rips you will ever hear from you collection.

But that's just me :)

Ha. If Bruce was in UK I would most likely get involved. As it stands, I would not be wanting to ship all that precious vinyl. Never know what happens en route. Anyway - I am about to try your hqplayer direct SDM thing as it is evening here now...
 
Ha. If Bruce was in UK I would most likely get involved. As it stands, I would not be wanting to ship all that precious vinyl. Never know what happens en route. Anyway - I am about to try your hqplayer direct SDM thing as it is evening here now...

Perfect, share your impressions.
 
Perfect, share your impressions.

It turned out that I did indeed already have the direct SDM option selected. However I can't compare the Horus 128 and 256 files cos the 128 file is mono for some reason whereas the other files including the 256 is stereo. I did 64 versus 256 as that was possible - not surprisingly the 256 file was better. I would say ~10% if I had to put a number on it.

Will see if I can get the Horus 128 file from Bruce in stereo.
 

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