Dutch & Dutch 8c Speakers

[tmallin]

First, note that it has been more than two years since my last post in this thread. I have not used the D&D 8c speakers in about that long, so I'm working from long-term memory here and my streaming set up has changed several times since then. I'm sure the D&Ds sound better than ever, however, since improvements have definitely been made both in their Roon streaming for Hi-Res material as well as with various EQ enhancements.

Yes, I streamed local files via Roon when I used the D&D speakers. All sources streamed via Roon sounded better in my system once the Lumin X1 was taken out of that system. I still stream local music files from a USB stick inserted into a USB port of my Roon Core.

I think Roon has made significant sonic improvements at their end as well over the last couple of years. I would be surprised if these days you hear significant sonic differences between local files played directly into your DAC and the same files played from a USB stick connected to a USB port on a Roon Core.

Note that I no longer use the EtherREGEN and would no longer recommend that unit to anyone. What is needed to clean up the sound of ethernet streaming is some sort of optical fiber connection or optical fiber interruption in the ethernet path just before your DAC. Make sure to upgrade the power supply of that unit. The EtherREGEN just injects unwanted brightness, no matter how it is power supplied.

I also think that a better sounding Roon Core than the Nucleus Plus is available for a fraction of the cost. Check the link in my signature to an up-to-date detailed description of my system which I last updated yesterday.

One caveat: This type of system architecture, where the D&D speakers act as the Roon Endpoint via ethernet connections, makes it difficult if not impossible to access internet radio sources behind paywalls such as Sirius/XM and JazzRadio, or any other internet radio stations not accessible via Roon's Live Radio function. If such sources are not important to you, ignore this caveat.

 

[Di-fi]

Thank you for your comment. I realize you’re in a different place now, but looking back, it seems it was worth it for you. I’m aware—though not from firsthand experience—that Roon has made progress toward more audiophile SQ in the previous months. Since the D&D was exclusively a Roon endpoint for you, I hope it can be used as a non-Roon endpoint, at least for comparison.

I don’t recall, but there was a lot to read through (not complaining at all!). Did you use Room EQ Wizard (REW) with the D&D?

Regarding the audio network, I’m a firm believer that a switch or filter should be used somewhere in the chain, as well as separation as much as possible from all other home network devices.

To improve SQ in my current setup, I use an ER with fiber coming in through its optical input and Ethernet out on the other side of its ‘moat’ to achieve that result. The chosen Ethernet cable to the streamer smooths the sound, along with a specific Finisar SFP transceiver and a good LPS unit powering the ER. I’m hoping this setup could be just as effective for the D&D.

What is needed to clean up the sound of ethernet streaming is some sort of optical fiber connection or optical fiber interruption in the ethernet path just before your DAC.

The DAC is in the D&D. Are you suggesting optical to AES or optical to Ethernet while keeping cable length to a minimum? The former seems easier to apply when using a single connection to the D&D, whereas the double Ethernet setup would not be just before the D&D (dac). Curious to hear your thoughts!

 

[tmallin]

Yes, I documented how to use REW to EQ the D&Ds. That functionality was added while I was still using the D&Ds. See my post #91 and especially #92.

What wasn't added until later was refinements to the D&D software to allow the speakers' Roon Endpoint to operate smoothly at 24/192 resolution. While I had the speakers, all was good up through 24/96 resolution, but at 24/192, connection was a bit on the flakey side--doable but with frequent left/right channel imbalance and occasional muting problems.

One of the problems or complexities of the D&D set-up is the need to make multiple ethernet connections to the speakers, meaning you WILL need some sort of ethernet switch in the signal path. D&D at least early on downplayed that need, saying that you only needed to connect the speakers to the internet via ethernet for initial set-up and equalization. But you still will need a switch then and if you want to tweak the EQ later for room or speaker placement changes, or changes in EQ from one recording to another you will need the ethernet connectivity then, too. And if you plan to use the Roon Endpoint functionality of the speakers you need constant ethernet connectivity.

The ER in its traditional configuration does not work well since you need multiple ethernet cables coming from the switch to the speakers and the ER provides only one port on the "clean" side of the moat. While I was using the ER with these speakers, I used it backwards since there are four ethernet connections coming out the other side. But the ER definitely sounds better putting the moat toward the DAC.

The D&Ds also make it difficult not to use long ethernet runs from the ER or other "cleaner" device to the DAC which is in the left speaker. This partially defeats the purpose of cleaning up the ethernet signal just in front of the DAC. I have found that even the difference between 2.5 and 1.5 feet of ethernet cable on the "clean" side before the DAC is quite audible--much less longer runs.

You can get around all these ethernet problems by just connecting the speakers via analog XLR cable or digitally from your streamer via coax digital with an AES/EBU adaptor or an AES/EBU output from your streamer/DAC if that is available. In any event, the speakers either use A/D to convert incoming analog signals to 24/48 digital or use resampling to convert incoming digital signals to the native 24/48 used for all digital processing within the speakers. In that configuration, you don't need to use Roon at all and you can use a separate fine streamer like a Lumin and stream via the Lumin App or other proprietary streaming software. I used digital coax plus an AES/EBU adaptor with the D&Ds before I went with all ethernet cabling when I switched over to using the D&Ds strictly as a Roon Endpoint.

I switched to the ethernet/Roon Endpoint mode for D&D connection primarily because Roon sounded so much better that way and I loved (as I still do) the Roon GUI and indexing. In doing that, I sacrificed the ability to play internet radio channels not available through Roon's Live Radio function--basically any radio behind a paywall, like Sirius/XM. As I stated in a prior post, if such sources are not important to you, Roon can be your sole streaming source since you can listen to local files via a USB stick or drive inserted into a USB port of your Roon Core.

 

[Di-fi]

Yes, I documented how to use REW to EQ the D&Ds. That functionality was added while I was still using the D&Ds. See my post #91 and especially #92.

What wasn't added until later was refinements to the D&D software to allow the speakers' Roon Endpoint to operate smoothly at 24/192 resolution. While I had the speakers, all was good up through 24/96 resolution, but at 24/192, connection was a bit on the flakey side--doable but with frequent left/right channel imbalance and occasional muting problems.

One of the problems or complexities of the D&D set-up is the need to make multiple ethernet connections to the speakers, meaning you WILL need some sort of ethernet switch in the signal path. D&D at least early on downplayed that need, saying that you only needed to connect the speakers to the internet via ethernet for initial set-up and equalization. But you still will need a switch then and if you want to tweak the EQ later for room or speaker placement changes, or changes in EQ from one recording to another you will need the ethernet connectivity then, too. And if you plan to use the Roon Endpoint functionality of the speakers you need constant ethernet connectivity.

The ER in its traditional configuration does not work well since you need multiple ethernet cables coming from the switch to the speakers and the ER provides only one port on the "clean" side of the moat. While I was using the ER with these speakers, I used it backwards since there are four ethernet connections coming out the other side. But the ER definitely sounds better putting the moat toward the DAC.

The D&Ds also make it difficult not to use long ethernet runs from the ER or other "cleaner" device to the DAC which is in the left speaker. This partially defeats the purpose of cleaning up the ethernet signal just in front of the DAC. I have found that even the difference between 2.5 and 1.5 feet of ethernet cable on the "clean" side before the DAC is quite audible--much less longer runs.

You can get around all these ethernet problems by just connecting the speakers via analog XLR cable or digitally from your streamer via coax digital with an AES/EBU adaptor or an AES/EBU output from your streamer/DAC if that is available. In any event, the speakers either use A/D to convert incoming analog signals to 24/48 digital or use resampling to convert incoming digital signals to the native 24/48 used for all digital processing within the speakers. In that configuration, you don't need to use Roon at all and you can use a separate fine streamer like a Lumin and stream via the Lumin App or other proprietary streaming software. I used digital coax plus an AES/EBU adaptor with the D&Ds before I went with all ethernet cabling when I switched over to using the D&Ds strictly as a Roon Endpoint.

I switched to the ethernet/Roon Endpoint mode for D&D connection primarily because Roon sounded so much better that way and I loved (as I still do) the Roon GUI and indexing. In doing that, I sacrificed the ability to play internet radio channels not available through Roon's Live Radio function--basically any radio behind a paywall, like Sirius/XM. As I stated in a prior post, if such sources are not important to you, Roon can be your sole streaming source since you can listen to local files via a USB stick or drive inserted into a USB port of your Roon Core.

I’d like to express my sincere thanks for the effort and obvious passion for sound—really appreciate the detailed insights. Some key points you highlighted are essential for understanding the D&D setup, especially regarding Ethernet connectivity, REW integration (look forward to read) and signal path considerations.

Your experience with the ER and the challenges of keeping the Ethernet path "clean" are particularly interesting. It reinforces my thinking about whether to prioritize the dual Ethernet connection or go with AES/EBU for simplicity. Your comments on cable length sensitivity and the switch (ER’s) port configuration also give me a lot to consider.

Thanks again for sharing all of this—your write-up makes it much easier to navigate these decisions! I have an audition scheduled in two weeks, and thanks to your insights, it will be much more focused.

 

[LeBlanc]

I’d like to express my sincere thanks for the effort and obvious passion for sound—really appreciate the detailed insights. Some key points you highlighted are essential for understanding the D&D setup, especially regarding Ethernet connectivity, REW integration (look forward to read) and signal path considerations.

Your experience with the ER and the challenges of keeping the Ethernet path "clean" are particularly interesting. It reinforces my thinking about whether to prioritize the dual Ethernet connection or go with AES/EBU for simplicity. Your comments on cable length sensitivity and the switch (ER’s) port configuration also give me a lot to consider.

Thanks again for sharing all of this—your write-up makes it much easier to navigate these decisions! I have an audition scheduled in two weeks, and thanks to your insights, it will be much more focused.

An interesting more recent development regarding the 8c not mentioned yet is the option to use the Bacch plug-in. Highly recommended. Also works when connecting an external device to the AES input.

And further to Roon you can now also use Spotify through the internal 8c player. UPnP functionality will be added in a future firmware update according to the manufacturer.

 

[tmallin]

For lovers of highly compressed music played loudly in a room with limited acoustic treatments, the Dutch & Dutch 8c is as good a choice of high-end speaker as any. It gets this title because its dispersion characteristics mean that less obnoxious room reflections of mid and high frequencies from room surfaces will be heard in the sweet spot.

My serial ownership of many speakers used in my same converted small bedroom Audio Room means that I've had a chance to hear a lot of speakers both with and without room treatment. My acoustic foam treatment is easily movable and I always listen to a new pair of speakers without the treatment and then reintroduce it.

Even in this quite small (about 11 foot, by 13 foot, by 8.5 foot high) room, the D&D speakers ALMOST don't need room treatment. The sonic differences between no treatment and full treatment, while not terribly subtle, are not of the nature where I rushed to put the treatment back in place. The differences really involved somewhat better imaging/staging and less slap echo. But both effects were small compared to all the other speakers I've had in this room. And that is despite the fact that the positioning of the D&D speakers (per manufacturer's recommendations) was far closer to the room surfaces behind and to the sides than most of the speakers I've used in this room.

Really the only reason I did not use the D&Ds longer was that in order to get their stellar bass--seemingly undistorted and plenty high in level in my room down to a measured 17 Hz, you have to use them very close to the wall behind them. That means that the perception of depth of field was considerably reduced compared to my usual speaker placement and I grew tired of that. In retrospect, I should have tried pulling the speakers out from the wall to the positions I usually use and re-equalizing them there. John Atkinson did that and concluded "Wow!"

Of the speakers I've used in my current Audio Room, only my current AR-303a's are in the same class in terms of not needing room treatment. I actually use another pair of those speakers in an even smaller (9 feet, by 9.5 feet, by 8.5 feet high) bedroom without any room treatment and REALLY enjoy their sound there.

Both the D&Ds and the ARs are helped in this respect by having high frequencies which are relatively subjectively if not measurably subdued compared to most other high-end speakers. The Computer Audiophile review of the D&Ds made the comment that the D&Ds had roughly 5 dB less high end than most and were the first speakers the reviewers had used which did not need a lot of high-frequency EQ roll off to sound natural to that reviewer whose music of choice seemed to be rock.

 

[Di-fi]

It’s true—I also find the D&D 8c works beautifully across genres, even with less-than-perfect recordings. In my untreated room, they offer a level of transparency and ease that’s rare in high-end audio. That flexibility is part of what makes them so enjoyable day to day. Did I mention all the boxes and cables I removed—and maybe still more to come? Read on.

Edit : May 20, 2025

From high-end streamer to high-value ethernet: simpler, better sound quality?

I should also say @tmallin, your post inspired me—specifically your demonstration that excellent results over Ethernet with D&D 8c can be had without a high-end streamer. That helped shape my own comparisons between AES (with a local Antipodes streamer) and Ethernet streaming setups. Ideally, I’d like to move away from the Antipodes eventually.

I haven’t (yet?) tried the balanced analog outputs as Atkinson did, but I’ve learned quite a bit , also with help from D&D, comparing the digital paths:

So, the D&D 8c’s internal DSP operates at a fixed 48kHz.

AES (local streamer with local SSD tried w. Roon/ Squeeze/ LMS / Ascend (D&D app):

• AES3 input is resampled asynchronously to 48kHz—not a simple sample rate conversion.
• In my setup, the right speaker acts as master; the left is clock-slaved to it.
• This means the DACs are synchronized under a single clock domain.

Ethernet (network streamer with files still coming from the Antipodes tried w. Roon/ Squeeze/ LMS/ JPLAY / Ascend (D&D app):

• Each speaker receives its own stream via the LAN.
• One speaker re-streams the second channel to the other.
• Clocking is managed via Precision Time Protocol, aligning both DSPs at 48kHz.
• Each speaker runs its own DAC and async resampler, but they are fully synchronized via PTP.

From this, my impressions:

• AES offers a simpler master-clock architecture and possibly lower latency/jitter.
• Ethernet provides a superb phantom center and clarity in the highs—but the bass feels slightly different: more diffuse. (Interestingly, bass response changes noticeably with different AES interconnects between speakers.)
• Ethernet likely still demands more careful comparison of cables and network switch to sound its best. I still need to better understand how PTP timing interacts with the system compared to the Antipodes' clocking.

So for me, it’s not either/or, but a matter of tradeoffs. Still exploring. Also, the promised Audirvana integration with the D&D app— I would run from a Linux server—could be very interesting. Looking forward to auditioning that.

Curious if others have done similar comparisons—or tried optimizing through switch and good power and cabling tweaks?

 

[rmcadam]

Really the only reason I did not use the D&Ds longer was that in order to get their stellar bass--seemingly undistorted and plenty high in level in my room down to a measured 17 Hz, you have to use them very close to the wall behind them. That means that the perception of depth of field was considerably reduced compared to my usual speaker placement and I grew tired of that. In retrospect, I should have tried pulling the speakers out from the wall to the positions I usually use and re-equalizing them there. John Atkinson did that and concluded "Wow!"

Tom I always wondered why you stopped using them. I don't own them yet but placing drivers close to the back wall is problematic for me and always has been.

I already own two JLAudio F112 subs and anticipate using these with the 8c's. Measured response by others show the 8c's roll off from 30hz.

I guess I would crossover at 50 or 60hz. It seems no one runs subwoofers with the 8c's or admits to it. I have asked Dutch and Dutch about adding subwoofers but they declined to comment. There is nothing on the web yet re subs with these speakers.

I understand their philosophy in making a speaker to handle all frequencies especially in studios and small listening spaces. Certainly not using subs removes the problem of integration. The 8c's are gaining success in the market place.

Robert

 

[tmallin]

There is a subwoofer output on the speakers, so using subs was contemplated.

John Atkinson used the D&Ds well away from the wall behind them and got fine, full level deep bass to below 20 Hz after equalization. See Figure 2 on this page. I suspect, however, that the low frequency power handling is considerably reduced do to both a boost in the low frequencies via the "free" placement option and the lack of boundary reinforcement from a nearby wall behind the speakers.

Still, if you don't need to play the speakers all that loudly . . . I regret not having tried this.

 

[rmcadam]

I'm surprised John didn't purchase the 8c's as other reviewers have. I need to try them in my room with and without subs. I may be able to remove more boxes and cables. I don't listen as loud these days and I'm always after clean bass.

I'm interested in others experience using subwoofers with the 8c's.