Dutch & Dutch 8c Speakers

[tmallin]

If you are using the speakers as Roon Ready endpoints you only need to attach ethernet cables and power cords to each one. The AES/EBU cables are unnecessary.

While the D&D software has long been able to accept up to 24/192 at its digital or ethernet inputs, all internal processing has, from the beginning, been intentionally limited to 24/48. And the digital inputs do not accept DSD at all.

As I explained earlier in this thread, Martijn Mensink in on record as saying (1) the DAC chips used in the speakers work more precisely at that processing speed rather than higher PCM speeds and (2) limiting the sampling rate to 48 kHz makes sure that minimal musical or noise energy is present in the signal reaching the tweeters to excite the mechanical resonance of the metal dome at 27 kHz, since the 48 kHz sampling rate sharply rolls of the program energy above 24 kHz, half the sampling rate.

 

[RDSChicago]

Tom, my router is not near the location of the Dutch and Dutch speakers I intend to purchase in the near future. Will a wireless access point with ethernet cables coming from it work sufficiently with the speakers, or do you think the ethernet cables need to be hardwired into the speakers?

Thank you.

 

[Hear Here]

Tom, my router is not near the location of the Dutch and Dutch speakers I intend to purchase in the near future. Will a wireless access point with ethernet cables coming from it work sufficiently with the speakers, or do you think the ethernet cables need to be hardwired into the speakers?

Thank you.

I cant't answer that question, but wireless should always be avoided if possible and powerline adaptors are likely to be better than wireless (even if the receiver is connected by Ethernet) as you are effectively keeping the entire connection hard wired - using your house mains wiring to carry the signal.

 

[tmallin]

My router isn't near my audio room either, but is on the floor below. The quite circuitous path the ethernet cable from my modem/router must follow to my audio room is some 90 feet long. I have found the combination of my GigaFOILv4 Inline Ethernet Filter powered by 5V output of Keces P3 LPS, feeding my UpTone Audio EtherREGEN ethernet switch powered by 12V output of Keces P3 LPS to clean up the signal at the end of that long path in my audio room just before connecting to the Nucleus+ to clean up the sound enormously compared to a direct connection between the ethernet wall jack in my audio room and the Nucleus+.

A wireless access point with client mode usually only has only one ethernet port. Each D&D speaker operating in Roon Ready endpoint mode needs its own separate ethernet connection. The Nucleus+ also needs a separate connection. Thus, you need an ethernet switch in your audio room to provide all the separate ethernet connections--the input to the switch and at least three other ethernet ports for the speakers and Nucleus+. There is no simple "splitter" for ethernet signals.

Before I got my wired ethernet path set up (cost over $1,000 for a tech working all day to rung that cable through the plaster walls of my old house) I used a TP Link wireless access point in client mode, the one many high-end audio shops were recommending for use with streamers which require an ethernet input. See this and this newer version with 5G. You would then run an ethernet cable from the wireless access point to the ethernet switch, with separate ethernet cables from the switch to each speaker and the Nucleus+.

This should work well enough. However, in my comparative experiments in my situation--wireless router on the first floor just 9 feet directly below my wireless access point in my second floor audio room--compared to wired ethernet even without the special GigaFOILv4 and Uptone Audio EtherREGEN to clean up the ethernet signal, the ethernet signal was noticeably better sounding. (Yes, it took 90 feet of cable to go that 9 foot distance in order to avoid opening up walls and drilling through horizontal fire-stop boards within the walls of my old house. The cable had to be run down to the basement, across the basement ceiling, up next to the plumbing vent stack to my attic, across the attic and down through the attic floor and ceiling of my second floor to get a clear enough path to run the ethernet cable to a wall jack in my audio room.)

Another possibility which I have not used but may well work reliably if you don't want to run an ethernet cable or use a wireless access point, is to set up a MoCA network using coaxial cable TV connections which may already exist in your listening room. You can read all about such a network in the accompanying documentation for this product. I've purchased it but have not yet set it up. I plan to try it out with a new smart TV in a room with weak wireless reception but an existing cable TV coax connection. For a D&D set-up, however, you would still need to add an ethernet switch.

 

[RDSChicago]

I cant't answer that question, but wireless should always be avoided if possible and powerline adaptors are likely to be better than wireless (even if the receiver is connected by Ethernet) as you are effectively keeping the entire connection hard wired - using your house mains wiring to carry the signal.

Hear here, thanks for the idea of using Powerline adapters. Which ones do you currently recommend? Thanks.

 

[tmallin]

Be cautious about powerline internet wiring. This method just does not work with some types of electrical boxes. It doesn't work in my house. I've tried two different brands of powerline internet adaptors. This is a known problem with this method. Thus my experimentation with the MoCA network using coax connections from prior cable/antenna TV installations.

 

[Hear Here]

Hear here, thanks for the idea of using Powerline adapters. Which ones do you currently recommend? Thanks.

My own ones are several years old but a search on Amazon for Powerline Adaptors will come up with lots. These seem the most popular with an excellent review rating, but Netgear offer others at higher price that may be worth the extra.

I've never had problems with these adaptors, though not used for audio files. However, as long as they are good with transferring data to a printer (for example) audio files should travel equally comfortably! I have much more problems with wi-fi extenders where data transfer is slow and often interrupted.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TL-PA4010PKIT-Passthrough-Powerline-Configuration-Required/dp/B01G5Q9E0O/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1DCNFUPYBHZDY&keywords=powerline+adapter&qid=1665917387&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI0LjQ2IiwicXNhIjoiMy45NyIsInFzcCI6IjMuODAifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=powerline%2Caps%2C205&sr=8-3

Good luck. Peter

 

[tmallin]

If powerline adaptors work for you, this is a very easy method of extending high-speed internet access to rooms where Wi-Fi signal strength is weak or where there are no existing ethernet wall outlets.

But, as I said above, in the United States, with our 110 volt single phase electrical systems, the design of some electrical service entry boxes prevents this type of adaptor from working properly. If there is a problem due to the service box design, then at best you can get connections among half of your circuits. At worst, it doesn't work reliably at all. In my home, I can sometimes get a strong connection for a few minutes or even up to a day sometimes, and then the connection drops, never to be restored even if the adaptors are reset.

But if you try it and it works, go for it. Just keep in mind that you will still need an ethernet switch in the audio room connected by ethernet cable to the powerline adaptor in your audio room.

 

[RDSChicago]

So power adaptor into Ethernet switch and then out of switch to each speaker and Roon core? I have the Cisco switch with several Ethernet ports I used to get optical cables into Lumin X1 so I imagine that will work?

 

[tmallin]

Yes that should work. No Lumin needed, of course, but try power adaptor into ethernet switch and from switch connect separate ethernet cables to each speaker and the Nucleus+ or other Roon Core.

The thing with the power adaptor working has to do with whether the circuits you are connecting are all on the same phase of your incoming electrical service. Standard USA 220 volt service uses two 110 volt current phases. Each phase powers half the circuits in your service box. Any devices like central air or an electric stove which require 220 volt service use breakers that are shaped so that they connect to the hot side of each phase rather than one hot phase and ground, producing a 220 volt differential between them.

I believe that any electrical box will work if the powerline adaptor you plug in next to your router is on the same phase as the powerline adaptor you plug in to an outlet in your audio room. Where it gets tricky is when those two outlets are on different phases of the power coming into the box. With some service boxes the powerline adaptor is able to make a reliable electrical connection between the two electrical phases, but with other boxes this cannot happen reliably if at all.

 

[tmallin]

More information on USA electrical boxes and why this can affect the performance of powerline ethernet adapters:

Open your electrical service box door and look for the few circuit breakers which take up two slots as opposed to one. The two-slot circuits are usually 220-volt circuits.

(1) If those circuit breakers span two vertical slots and thus the breaker looks squarish, the two separate electrical phases are interleaved top to bottom in the box.

(2) If the two-slot circuits are long horizontally, that means the two phases are side by side in the box, not interleaved vertically.

Find the circuit where you have plugged in your first powerline adaptor. Most people choose the circuit powering their router, as that is the most reliable place to start. If you're not sure which circuit this is, just flip breakers until your router light turns off.

Now find the circuit breaker which controls the outlet in your audio room where you plan to plug in your second powerline adapter. If your audio room outlet where you plug in the second powerline adaptor happens to be powered by that same breaker, you should be golden.

If is is not powered by the same breaker, you at least should be able to determine whether the two outlets are powered by the same phase of power.

In electrical box layout (1) above, every other vertical slot is on the same electrical phase. In electrical box layout (2) above, all the breakers on the left side of the box are powered by the same phase, while all the breakers on the right side of the box are powered by the other phase.

If both outlets are at least powered by the same phase of power, you will have a better chance of making the powerline adapters work. If the two outlets are powered by different electrical phases, you will have less of a chance of making the powerline adaptors work.

Sometimes you will be able to get the two powerline adaptors on the same phase just by moving one adaptor to a different outlet in the same room. Best electrical wiring practices call for the outlets in any given room to be powered from both phases, some outlets from one phase and others from the other phase. This wiring practice yields more electrical capacity to the wiring in each room.

 

[RDSChicago]

Two questions:

I’m direct streaming Roon into the speakers and love it. Using the Ethernet power adapters and they’re working like a charm. However, for some reason my Windows PC which I’m using as my core works fine on Wifi but if I connect the Ethernet to the computer it’s glitchy. Why would that be?

I have a Sony 4K Oled TV. What’s the best way to connect it to the 8Cs and to control volume once connected?

Thanks.

 

[tmallin]

I have no idea about the best TV connection since I've not tried connecting a TV to them. I believe having any exposed glass surface (window, mirror, coffee table top, and certainly any TV) between your speakers is a huge sonic no-no.

In theory you could run either analog audio out from the TV into the analog inputs of the D&Ds via an RCA to XLR adaptor and control volume either via the TV or via the D&D app's volume control. You could also run digital coax audio out from the TV into the digital input of the D&D via a coax to AES/EBU adapter (Benchmark sells such, for example) and control volume via the D&D app. I suspect the digital path would sound better, but you should experiment.

As to why your computer has glitches connected via ethernet power adaptors, let's just call that one reason why most people end up using either Wi-Fi or ethernet to connect sensitive devices to the internet rather than short-cuts like powerline ethernet or MoCA. In my own home, powerline ethernet works not at all. MoCA seems at first to work fine, but it, too, can cause glitches both with the TV and with computers/streamers connected to my LAN. Thus, I, too, am now back to wired ethernet or Wi-Fi for TV, computers, and streamers.

So, if you don't want to run ethernet cable, and the powerline adaptors or MoCA are causing problems, one way to provide ethernet connections to your D&Ds is to pick up Wi-Fi via a wireless access point device, run an ethernet cable out of that to an ethernet switch, and then from the switch run separate ethernet cables to each speaker and any other devices you may have in your system which need internet access. I'm pretty sure that will work without glitches for both your D&D audio and your computer as long as your access point receives a strong Wi-Fi signal. Here's the cheap access point unit I'd recommend; put it into client mode and run a single ethernet cable from it to your ethernet switch.

 

[rubinken]

I have no idea about the best TV connection since I've not tried connecting a TV to them. I believe having any exposed glass surface (window, mirror, coffee table top, and certainly any TV) between your speakers is a huge sonic no-no.

In theory you could run either analog audio out from the TV into the analog inputs of the D&Ds via an RCA to XLR adaptor and control volume either via the TV or via the D&D app's volume control. You could also run digital coax audio out from the TV into the digital input of the D&D via a coax to AES/EBU adapter (Benchmark sells such, for example) and control volume via the D&D app. I suspect the digital path would sound better, but you should experiment.

As to why your computer has glitches connected via ethernet power adaptors, let's just call that one reason why most people end up using either Wi-Fi or ethernet to connect sensitive devices to the internet rather than short-cuts like powerline ethernet or MoCA. In my own home, powerline ethernet works not at all. MoCA seems at first to work fine, but it, too, can cause glitches both with the TV and with computers/streamers connected to my LAN. Thus, I, too, am now back to wired ethernet or Wi-Fi for TV, computers, and streamers.

So, if you don't want to run ethernet cable, and the powerline adaptors or MoCA are causing problems, one way to provide ethernet connections to your D&Ds is to pick up Wi-Fi via a wireless access point device, run an ethernet cable out of that to an ethernet switch, and then from the switch run separate ethernet cables to each speaker and any other devices you may have in your system which need internet access. I'm pretty sure that will work without glitches for both your D&D audio and your computer as long as your access point receives a strong Wi-Fi signal. Here's the cheap access point unit I'd recommend; put it into client mode and run a single ethernet cable from it to your ethernet switch.

I'm considering simplifying my office system after many decades of following a more 'traditional' route. I am considering active speakers. Have you listened to the Avantgarde Zero 1's, or other active speakers? If so, I'd appreciate any comments you may have about their musicality & engagement. Thanks.
BTW, my office is 14.6"L x 12.2"W x 9"H

 

[RDSChicago]

I’ve had the 8C’s for around a month now after having had at least 15 pairs of speakers in the last 20 years. All I can say is I am blown away and 100% satisfied. Streaming Roon, my only component is my laptop. Simply incredible base and clarity. You can’t go wrong with the 8C’s. I haven’t heard the Avantgarde’s so cannot comment on them. However, the Dutch speakers have boundary settings, which make them so easy to set up without having to worry about your room, room, treatments, etc. If you want to go deeper, into adjustments, you could also fine-tune them with room equalization wizard, which I have not yet done and right now, don’t feel the need to do so.

 

[rubinken]

I’ve had the 8C’s for around a month now after having had at least 15 pairs of speakers in the last 20 years. All I can say is I am blown away and 100% satisfied. Streaming Roon, my only component is my laptop. Simply incredible base and clarity. You can’t go wrong with the 8C’s. I haven’t heard the Avantgarde’s so cannot comment on them. However, the Dutch speakers have boundary settings, which make them so easy to set up without having to worry about your room, room, treatments, etc. If you want to go deeper, into adjustments, you could also fine-tune them with room equalization wizard, which I have not yet done and right now, don’t feel the need to do so.

Thanks for your quick & clear reply. I need to consider the required hard wired internet & hookups. I'll downlead the owners manual. Are you satisficed with the bass? Is there an option to hook up powered subwoofers? (I own REL S/812's)

 

[tmallin]

I have heard the Avant Garde Zero 1 speakers at two different AXPONA shows. These are just not my sonic cup of tea. Neither are any of the other Avant Garde speakers. Let's just leave it at that.

For a small office space, if you don't want the D&D 8c's I can also recommend the small floor-standing KEF LS60. I haven't looked at the features of all the speakers out there, but the KEFs are one of the few active speakers which have a feature set similar to the D&Ds within the boxes (although the KEF's equalization is not as flexible), cost a lot less money, and produce seriously good sound.

For a lot more money, the Cabasse Pearl Pelegrina for about $30,000 also combines a similar feature set into the speakers and integral stands. I heard these at the 2022 AXPONA and was very impressed.

 

[rubinken]

I have heard the Avant Garde Zero 1 speakers at two different AXPONA shows. These are just not my sonic cup of tea. Neither are any of the other Avant Garde speakers. Let's just leave it at that.

For a small office space, if you don't want the D&D 8c's I can also recommend the small floor-standing KEF LS60. I haven't looked at the features of all the speakers out there, but the KEFs are one of the few active speakers which have a feature set similar to the D&Ds within the boxes (although the KEF's equalization is not as flexible), cost a lot less money, and produce seriously good sound.

For a lot more money, the Cabasse Pearl Pelegrina for about $30,000 also combines a similar feature set into the speakers and integral stands. I heard these at the 2022 AXPONA and was very impressed.

Thanks. I'll look into the KEF's. I'm surprised that the 8c has not been updated for wireless play. Have you heard any whispers about an updated Dutch & Dutch version?

 

[tmallin]

No, I have not heard anything about any update to add "wireless" play, if by that you mean Bluetooth.

As I said above in post #133, if you don't want to or cannot as a practical matter run ethernet cable, one way to provide ethernet connections to your D&Ds is to pick up Wi-Fi via a wireless access point device, run an ethernet cable out of that to an ethernet switch, and then from the switch run separate ethernet cables to each speaker and any other devices you may have in your system which need internet access. I'm pretty sure that will work without glitches as long as your access point receives a strong Wi-Fi signal. Here's the cheap access point unit I'd recommend; put it into client mode and run a single ethernet cable from it to your ethernet switch.

 

[rubinken]

No, I have not heard anything about any update to add "wireless" play, if by that you mean Bluetooth.

As I said above in post #133, if you don't want to or cannot as a practical matter run ethernet cable, one way to provide ethernet connections to your D&Ds is to pick up Wi-Fi via a wireless access point device, run an ethernet cable out of that to an ethernet switch, and then from the switch run separate ethernet cables to each speaker and any other devices you may have in your system which need internet access. I'm pretty sure that will work without glitches as long as your access point receives a strong Wi-Fi signal. Here's the cheap access point unit I'd recommend; put it into client mode and run a single ethernet cable from it to your ethernet switch.

Thanks. If I go the *c route this is what I'll follow.
Know that your posts and responses are appreciated. Thanks.