Dutch & Dutch 8c Speakers

[tmallin]

A couple of clarifications: Even with the D&D 8c speakers used in a strictly streaming system as Roon Ready Endpoints, you'll still need another electronics box besides the speakers to act as a Roon Core. The speakers cannot be used as the Roon Core.

You can use a capable PC as the Roon Core. I use a Roon Nucleus+. That will give you access to your music files via network connection or, as I had it arranged, a 1 TB USB stick containing my music files inserted into one of the two USB ports on the back of the Nucleus+. It will also give you access to any internet radio station which can be "tuned" via Roon's Live Radio function, which is a very broad selection.

However, the lack of AirPlay or Bluetooth capability will make accessing a few services, such as Sirius/XM radio, much more difficult. While Roon can work with your Qobuz and Tidal accounts, Roon does not directly work with Sirius/XM. With my Lumin X1 streamer, I just use AirPlay for Sirius/XM listening. If AirPlay or other forms of casting are your thing, you might want to add some sort or real streaming box, such a a Blue Sound Node or (for 4x the money) the Lumin U2 Mini.

Also, Roon and Spotify don't work directly together, so it is more difficult to play Spotify through a system which lacks an actual streamer. There are work arounds to get Spotify to play through Roon, but it's not automatic. Since I don't use Spotify much (Tidal and Qobuz have CD and Hi-Res versions of most of the material I'm interested in, while Spotify's quality is still limited to a streaming rate of about 300 kbps), during the time I was using the D&D 8c speakers as my Roon Ready Endpoint in place of my Lumin X1 streamer, I just did without Spotify and Sirius/XM.

 

[Hear Here]

I have heard the Avant Garde Zero 1 speakers at two different AXPONA shows. These are just not my sonic cup of tea. Neither are any of the other Avant Garde speakers. Let's just leave it at that.

I won't defend Avatgarde's Zero 1 because I've never heard them, but perhaps someone who admits to not liking any Avantgarde speaker system shouldn't be relied upon for answering your question about the Zero 1.

In defense of Avantgarde, I have been using their non-active (but hybrid) systems (Uno and Duo) for 20 years and home demo'd various other speakers during that time, hoping to find ones that offer even greater excitement and life-like sound. So far, I've failed miserably, so I'm more than happy with my Avantgardes!

I hope someone who actually owns Zeros can better answer your question.

 

[LeBlanc]

@rubinken you might also want to look into the new Dynaudio Focus series. These are wireless, come with Dirac included and have a more traditional look than the Kef LS60.

 

[rubinken]

@rubinken you might also want to look into the new Dynaudio Focus series. These are wireless, come with Dirac included and have a more traditional look than the Kef LS60.

Thx, I'll check them out also

 

[tmallin]

Yes, this new line of Dynaudio Focus speakers seem to more closely match the feature set of the D&D 8c's, plus add wireless communication capability. I first noticed the Computer Audiophile review of the Focus 10, a stand-mount model, through the reference in the Daily Audiophile. That speaker seems to extend down to about 40 Hz. There are also two floorstanding models, the Focus 30 and Focus 50. The largest one, the Focus 50, is advertised as having 20 Hz bass extension, like the D&D 8c, and costs about 10,000 Euros or $11,000 dollars, so it is somewhat less expensive than the D&D. Instead of REW equalization, the Dynaudios use Dirac Live. Here's one brief review of the Focus 50

I'm very glad that more manufacturers are producing active DSPed speakers aimed at audiophiles. Companies like KEF and Dynaudio can bring significant R&D and financial resources to the party to both lower costs and potentially yet further improve the performance of such speakers.

It does not appear, however, that either KEF or Dynaudio are addressing wave launch issues the way D&D has via both wave-guiding the tweeter and using cardioid dispersion to limit the rearward dispersion of the upper bass through midrange.

 

[rubinken]

Yes, this new line of Dynaudio Focus speakers seem to more closely match the feature set of the D&D 8c's, plus add wireless communication capability. I first noticed the Computer Audiophile review of the Focus 10, a stand-mount model, through the reference in the Daily Audiophile. That speaker seems to extend down to about 40 Hz. There are also two floorstanding models, the Focus 30 and Focus 50. The largest one, the Focus 50, is advertised as having 20 Hz bass extension, like the D&D 8c, and costs about 10,000 Euros or $11,000 dollars, so it is somewhat less expensive than the D&D. Instead of REW equalization, the Dynaudios use Dirac Live. Here's one brief review of the Focus 50

I'm very glad that more manufacturers are producing active DSPed speakers aimed at audiophiles. Companies like KEF and Dynaudio can bring significant R&D and financial resources to the party to both lower costs and potentially yet further improve the performance of such speakers.

It does not appear, however, that either KEF or Dynaudio are addressing wave launch issues the way D&D has via both wave-guiding the tweeter and using cardioid dispersion to limit the rearward dispersion of the upper bass through midrange.

A huge attraction for me with the 8C's is how close they can sit to the front wall, as well as other features.
It's surprising to me that my closest Dutch & Dutch dealer is a pro audio shop rather than a home audio store. He has a pair on order for me to listen to.
The Dutch & Dutch website mentions that streaming is coming "soon". I wonder when "soon" will become "now"
It would be a mistake for me to buy the current 8C's if a replacement w/streaming is right around the corner.
Please know that your clear and detailed postings about the 8c's is very helpful as I pursue my simplification journey. Thanks

 

[tmallin]

The D&D speakers have, from the start, been sold mostly either direct or via pro-audio stores, not home audio stores. I bought mine via Vintage King in Nashville. Maybe that will change as active DSPed speakers gain more of a foothold in the home audio market.

Whatever website page you are reading is out of date. The Roon Ready version of the D&D 8c firmware has been available for quite some time now. I used it and wrote about its implementation starting more than a year ago with post #102 well before I bought my current Sanders 10e speakers. The newest version of the firmware has "significantly increased sync robustness" of that firmware. That means there is no longer a tendency, for example, for one channel to drop out occasionally, the image to wander, or one channel to be much louder than the other, problems which I noticed sometimes occurred on the earliest version when streaming 24/192 material.

See this page for a more up-to-date description of the streaming firmware for the D&D 8c.

 

[tmallin]

For those of you who would prefer NOT to use the D&D 8c's near the wall behind them (for better/more easily perceived depth of field, for example), note that John Atkinson, in his Stereophile review, used them well out into the room and said "Wow!" at the conclusion of his review. When next I set up the D&Ds, I will try them well away from the wall behind them. Having lived again with speakers positioned well away from the walls (the Sanders 10e), I'm again addicted to the easy depth of field perception such placement can produce with good speakers.

 

[rubinken]

The D&D speakers have, from the start, been sold mostly either direct or via pro-audio stores, not home audio stores. I bought mine via Vintage King in Nashville. Maybe that will change as active DSPed speakers gain more of a foothold in the home audio market.

Whatever website page you are reading is out of date. The Roon Ready version of the D&D 8c firmware has been available for quite some time now. I used it and wrote about its implementation starting more than a year ago with post #102 well before I bought my current Sanders 10e speakers. The newest version of the firmware has "significantly increased sync robustness" of that firmware. That means there is no longer a tendency, for example, for one channel to drop out occasionally, the image to wander, or one channel to be much louder than the other, problems which I noticed sometimes occurred on the earliest version when streaming 24/192 material.

See this page for a more up-to-date description of the streaming firmware for the D&D 8c.

I currently stream Tidal & FLAC via USB into my APL DSD Mr MkII from my laptop. I'll need to look into what hardware/software (Roon) I would need. I'll also need a USB>AES converter & cable. If you have suggestions, please guide me. Simplification has complications.

The D&Daa speakers have, from the start, been sold mostly either direct or via pro-audio stores, not home audio stores. I bought mine via Vintage King in Nashville. Maybe that will change as active DSPed speakers gain more of a foothold in the home audio market.

Whatever website page you are reading is out of date. The Roon Ready version of the D&D 8c firmware has been available for quite some time now. I used it and wrote about its implementation starting more than a year ago with post #102 well before I bought my current Sanders 10e speakers. The newest version of the firmware has "significantly increased sync robustness" of that firmware. That means there is no longer a tendency, for example, for one channel to drop out occasionally, the image to wander, or one channel to be much louder than the other, problems which I noticed sometimes occurred on the earliest version when streaming 24/192 material.

See this page for a more up-to-date description of the streaming firmware for the

 

[tmallin]

I recommend a Roon Nucleus+ for your Roon Core. You can play any local music files you have (e.g., files ripped from CDs) by plugging a solid-state USB stick (up to 1TB each are available for about $130 each) into one or both of the USB slots on the back of the Nucleus+. If you have more than 2 TB of music files, just buy a solid-state USB drive of requisite capacity and plug it into one of the USB ports on the back of the Nucleus+ with a very short USB cable. No other USB cables, equipment, or connections are needed.

Now connect the Nucleus+ and each speaker via separate ethernet cables to an ethernet switch. Connect your router to the switch with ethernet cable and you're done.

Control picking the music to play with an iPad. No need to wire the iPad to anything. The iPad becomes your Roon GUI. That's it--you're done. That's all you need for a modern streaming system. Sure, you can add accessories, buy expensive cables, power filters, etc., but that's all you really need to play beautiful music via the D&D 8c's.

 

[rubinken]

I recommend a Roon Nucleus+ for your Roon Core. You can play any local music files you have (e.g., files ripped from CDs) by plugging a solid-state USB stick (up to 1TB each are available for about $130 each) into one or both of the USB slots on the back of the Nucleus+. If you have more than 2 TB of music files, just buy a solid-state USB drive of requisite capacity and plug it into one of the USB ports on the back of the Nucleus+ with a very short USB cable. No other USB cables, equipment, or connections are needed.

Now connect the Nucleus+ and each speaker via separate ethernet cables to an ethernet switch. Connect your router to the switch with ethernet cable and you're done.

Control picking the music to play with an iPad. No need to wire the iPad to anything. The iPad becomes your Roon GUI. That's it--you're done. That's all you need for a modern streaming system. Sure, you can add accessories, buy expensive cables, power filters, etc., but that's all you really need to play beautiful music via the D&D 8c's.

I recommend a Roon Nucleus+ for your Roon Core. You can play any local music files you have (e.g., files ripped from CDs) by plugging a solid-state USB stick (up to 1TB each are available for about $130 each) into one or both of the USB slots on the back of the Nucleus+. If you have more than 2 TB of music files, just buy a solid-state USB drive of requisite capacity and plug it into one of the USB ports on the back of the Nucleus+ with a very short USB cable. No other USB cables, equipment, or connections are needed.

Now connect the Nucleus+ and each speaker via separate ethernet cables to an ethernet switch. Connect your router to the switch with ethernet cable and you're done.

Control picking the music to play with an iPad. No need to wire the iPad to anything. The iPad becomes your Roon GUI. That's it--you're done. That's all you need for a modern streaming system. Sure, you can add accessories, buy expensive cables, power filters, etc., but that's all you really need to play beautiful music via the D&D 8c's.

I'm in the process of acquiring a pair of 8c's, a Nuclear +, and my first Roon subscription. As I research. I came upon an interesting add-on, the rooDial by Dr. Oehlrich. It uses an MS Surface Dial as a wireless volume knob with additional controls. Are you familiar with this piece? It seems an easier, hands-on volume control than repeatingly having to open an app. More info:.
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/ro...b-for-roon-with-microsoft-surface-dial/134502

 

[tmallin]

No, I'm not familiar with it and and at this point I've been using iPad slider volume controls so long that a hardware volume control seems unnecessary for me personally.

 

[rubinken]

I'm in the process of acquiring a pair of 8c's, a Nuclear +, and my first Roon subscription. As I research. I came upon an interesting add-on, the rooDial by Dr. Oehlrich. It uses an MS Surface Dial as a wireless volume knob with additional controls. Are you familiar with this piece? It seems an easier, hands-on volume control than repeatingly having to open an app. More info:.
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/ro...b-for-roon-with-microsoft-surface-dial/134502

No, I'm not familiar with it and and at this point I've been using iPad slider volume controls so long that a hardware volume control seems unnecessary for me personal

No, I'm not familiar with it and and at this point I've been using iPad slider volume controls so long that a hardware volume control seems unnecessary for me personally.

As a nubee to Roon using a PC, I sure like the idea of having a kinesthetic, hefty volume knob. I suppose I'm a bit 'old fashioned'. Hopefully other members have some experience with the rooDial or/and the rooNuimo.

No, I'm not familiar with it and and at this point I've been using iPad slider volume controls so long that a hardware volume control seems unnecessary for me personally.Go to it.

 

[scottrogers]

I am a new 8C owner. I know most of you are likely only using the 8c as a 2-channel system. In my case, I use it for 2-channel and for my home theater system (phantom center, Atmos ceiling speakers, subs and surrounds). I currently use 2-channel via ethernet connection to Roon and use balanced analog connection to 8c's from HT (AV processor is source).

I like this setup but I would like to get even more from my 2 channel set up by using a Grimm MU1 as a source but to integrate with HT setup, I will have to get an analog-to-digital converter so I can connect the analog out from my HT processor to one of the digital inputs on the MU1 (using the MU1 to switch between 2 channel and HT sources). Is anyone else doing this and which ADC do you use?

I am also curious about AES/ XLR input. Is it best to go directly to both 8c speakers with a digital connection (because MU1 has two outputs) or go to one of the speakers and pass through the signal to the other speaker? Appreciate any thoughts on this.

8c's are truly awesome speakers!

 

[tmallin]

I frankly have never tried the balanced analog inputs of the D&D 8c. I only used the AES digital and ethernet inputs. For the AES digital input, I always used the loop through connection method since my source does not have dual digital outputs of the same type. I think equipment with multiple AES/EBU digital outputs is relatively rare in the audiophile world.

For the ethernet input, where the 8c is used in Roon Ready mode, you have to use separate ethernet cables to each speaker. Thus the need for an ethernet switch as I've discussed in previous posts. If you have not tried this method, I urge you to do so. The sound quality from the D&D 8c's took a step up when the need for an external streamer was eliminated. Granted, the Grimm MU1 is a fine streamer, but so is the Lumin X1 I use and eliminating the Lumin from the chain improved the sound quality from Roon. Of course, if you do that, you are limited to Roon as your only source, and that is not ideal for many users.

 

[scottrogers]

Thanks for the reply. I currently use and etherregen switch, powered by a LPS. I am running Sablon ethernet cables to each speaker from teh ER. It does sound very good but I have been told that the MU1 can better this setup because of the upsampling/ filtering they do to the AES output. So i am curious enough that I want to try it.

However, as mentioned in my previous post, given the fact that there is only one balanced/ AES input, I would need to run both roon and HT source through the MU1. That's why I was curious about how others have managed this, if they run a similar setup and what ADC they use.

 

[juliepriestly]

@rubinken you might also want to look into the new Dynaudio Focus series. These are wireless, come with Dirac included and have a more traditional look than the Kef LS60.

Dynaudio Focus 10 is now less powered than the older Focus 20.
Focus 30 is 2.5 way.
Focus 50 gets into proper 3 way land, but is gigantic.

Not sure what Dynaudio is thinking. Trying too hard not to cannibalize its stretchy lineup.

Meanwhile, Genelec 8351B are somewhat cheaper than 8c, and proper 3-ways in a bookshelf like form factor.

 

[LeBlanc]

Dynaudio Focus 10 is now less powered than the older Focus 20.
Focus 30 is 2.5 way.
Focus 50 gets into proper 3 way land, but is gigantic.

Not sure what Dynaudio is thinking. Trying too hard not to cannibalize its stretchy lineup.

Meanwhile, Genelec 8351B are somewhat cheaper than 8c, and proper 3-ways in a bookshelf like form factor.

Thanks, my previous comment referred to an alternative with room correction and streaming built in. If I’m not mistaking, the Genelecs don’t have streaming and volume control built in, so you would need to add something like a Lumin. And GLM for room correction of course.