Emm labs DA2 v2 upgrade

[jeromelang]

Found some juicy details of an older generation Aural Symphonics EMM-compatible 3-wire fiber optics and the EMM Labs' bandwith transceiver as provided by a audiogon member, though, not sure if this also applies to the new generation single-wire cable 15-years later:

nsgarch​

11-03-2005 5:45am

OK everybody, I just got off the phone with Tommy Dzurak (pronounced zer-ak) at Aural Symphonics. He has completed the final testing of the EMM Optimism V2 (which will be a 3-cable set). The initial production run is already on its way to Hong Kong, and he says general release in the US will be Dec-Jan, but some US dealers may have a few before then.

Now, to clear up all the technobabble. Tommy says that the ST cables supplied by Meitner are just, and I quote, "garden-variety, wide-bandwidth (one-size-fits-all) fiber optic cables as supplied with Wadia, Theta, Krell, etc. etc. They will work on any equipment, and by the same token, any wide-bandwidth cable will work on a Meitner."

One of the things he did in designing the Optimism series of cables was to narrow their bandwidth, for better data transmission. So far, they work fine with any machine (like Theta and Wadia and most others) which use the standard (wide-bandwidth) AT&T transceiver unit. But Meitner (according to Tommy) uses some type of narrow bandwith transceiver. So if you are going to use a narrow bandwidth cable like the Optimism V2, it's narrow bandwidth has to MATCH the transceiver's narrow bandwidth (or your shit don't work!) So the in the EMM Optimism V2, the bandwidth has been selected to match the Meitner transceiver narrow bandwidth (hope this all made sense.) Anyway, that's why the standard Optimism V2 won't work in the Meitner, and also why, because it had a wider bandwidth, why the older Optimism V1 WILL work, but nowhere near as good, according to Tommy, as his new EMM Optimism V2 set.

He said the sound of 2 channel CD's, but especially SACD surround, is absolutely amazing using his cables with the Meitner, and much better than using either their stock ST cables or coax. I guess, in this instance, a one-component product seems to be good marketing. He said his Hong Kong production run is already sold out!

 

[jeromelang]

Some questions:

1) Is it really necessary to connect the RSR232 cable between NS1 and DA2 when using the EMM Optilink cable between them?

I don't get any audio through the Optilink when the RS232 is not connected.
But when TOSlink cable is being used, I still get audio when RS232 is not connected.


2) Will the RS232 transmit possible ground noise via its electrical link?


3) Do you experience audio data sync unlock when playing dsd files from NS1 to DA2?

If you do - you can see at the DA2 display screen showing the sample-rate flickling from [DSD64] to [174.2kHz], and back to [DSD64] again when 1 track ends and another track starts to play.
Sometimes it might also flickle between [DSD64] to [unlocked] to [174.2kHz], and back to [DSD64].

When this happens, there is discernible drop in soundstage height and sense-of-musical ease.
At times, there might be some fatiguing artefacts added to the sound.

I checked files with other PCM sample rates (192kHz, 174.2kHz, 88.2kHz, 44.1kHz) and they don't have this issue.
This problem is present whether using Optilink or TOSLINK cable.

And when I revert to using Roon (the laptop acting as Roon core) then playing files with 192kHz sample rates will start to have this audio data sync unlock problem as well.

 

[jeromelang]

Does anyone have Ed Meitner's direct email address for technical questions that will bypass the 2 gargoyle gatekeepers Rashid and Amadeus?

 

[Ian B]

Some questions:

1) Is it really necessary to connect the RSR232 cable between NS1 and DA2 when using the EMM Optilink cable between them?

I don't get any audio through the Optilink when the RS232 is not connected.
But when TOSlink cable is being used, I still get audio when RS232 is not connected.

It does seem like RS232 is necessary for Optilink and not Toslink.

2) Will the RS232 transmit possible ground noise via its electrical link?

I think it is possible...but I don't hear it at all. I'm guessing that the video board and audio boards are very well isolated from each other.

3) Do you experience audio data sync unlock when playing dsd files from NS1 to DA2?

If you do - you can see at the DA2 display screen showing the sample-rate flickling from [DSD64] to [174.2kHz], and back to [DSD64] again when 1 track ends and another track starts to play.
Sometimes it might also flickle between [DSD64] to [unlocked] to [174.2kHz], and back to [DSD64].

When this happens, there is discernible drop in soundstage height and sense-of-musical ease.
At times, there might be some fatiguing artefacts added to the sound.

I checked files with other PCM sample rates (192kHz, 174.2kHz, 88.2kHz, 44.1kHz) and they don't have this issue.
This problem is present whether using Optilink or TOSLINK cable.

And when I revert to using Roon (the laptop acting as Roon core) then playing files with 192kHz sample rates will start to have this audio data sync unlock problem as well.

I haven't had this problem recently, but the sample rate change sounds familiar. Maybe it happened with my Innous over USB. It does not with my NS1/Optilink.

My guess is that what is going on is that the DSD data is being sent as DoP in a 174.2khz wrapper, and when the track switches the DA2 has to figure out that the PCM is actually DSD again. If you were sending DSD128 (not yet possible) you would see 352khz displayed in the same scenario.The problem is that it should not struggle to recognize DSD on every song.

 

[jeromelang]

I haven't had this problem recently, but the sample rate change sounds familiar. Maybe it happened with my Innous over USB. It does not with my NS1/Optilink.

My guess is that what is going on is that the DSD data is being sent as DoP in a 174.2khz wrapper, and when the track switches the DA2 has to figure out that the PCM is actually DSD again. If you were sending DSD128 (not yet possible) you would see 352khz displayed in the same scenario.The problem is that it should not struggle to recognize DSD on every song.

Hi Ian

Thanks for taking your time.

This is probably the worse scenario - I alone have the problem, while others don't.
That means EMM Labs might not bother to take up any supportive actions.

This sample-rate change / drop sync issue is creating audible degradation of DSD playback that I've stopped listening to dsd files, and switched to listening and buying hi-res PCM downloads instead.

But then another issue cropped up. When I switch to using roon, and using roon app to control hi-res pcm files playback, I get sync unlocked between previous/subsequent 192kHz tracks. Urrgghhh!!!

Luckily no such issues with mcontrol app playing 192kHz files though.
roon and mcontrol sound quite different from each other.
Still in 2 minds which sound better.
I am not entirely sure how to optimise roon setup.

 

[Ian B]

Hi Ian

Thanks for taking your time.

This is probably the worse scenario - I alone have the problem, while others don't.
That means EMM Labs might not bother to take up any supportive actions.

This sample-rate change / drop sync issue is creating audible degradation of DSD playback that I've stopped listening to dsd files, and switched to listening and buying hi-res PCM downloads instead.

But then another issue cropped up. When I switch to using roon, and using roon app to control hi-res pcm files playback, I get sync unlocked between previous/subsequent 192kHz tracks. Urrgghhh!!!

Luckily no such issues with mcontrol app playing 192kHz files though.
roon and mcontrol sound quite different from each other.
Still in 2 minds which sound better.
I am not entirely sure how to optimise roon setup.

Are you using mcontrol for DSD as well?

My guess is that Roon/your server aren't playing well with the NS1.

Now that I am remembering, when I saw the sample rate fluctuate I was using an Innuos Zenith MkIII with a long and convoluted USB signal chain with 3 boxes. My Zenith actually was faulty, and waiting for replacement I have just been plugging my SSD drive into the NS1 USB slot and using mconnect and it actually works really well. I am tempted to say it also sounds a hair better than the server.

You can probably try to play files from a USB hard drive or thumbnail from mcontrol, and that will tell you whether the issue is related to the DA2 connection, or your network. FYI, it does work better with the hard drive than thumbnail drive.

 

[jeromelang]

Are you using mcontrol for DSD as well?

My guess is that Roon/your server aren't playing well with the NS1.

Now that I am remembering, when I saw the sample rate fluctuate I was using an Innuos Zenith MkIII with a long and convoluted USB signal chain with 3 boxes. My Zenith actually was faulty, and waiting for replacement I have just been plugging my SSD drive into the NS1 USB slot and using mconnect and it actually works really well. I am tempted to say it also sounds a hair better than the server.

You can probably try to play files from a USB hard drive or thumbnail from mcontrol, and that will tell you whether the issue is related to the DA2 connection, or your network. FYI, it does work better with the hard drive than thumbnail drive.

I am playing DSD/PCM files from an USB thumbdrive when using mcontrol
and only via Tidal when using roon.
I haven't figure out how to get roon to play files that are on the same laptop.....

 

[Ian B]

I am playing DSD/PCM files from an USB thumbdrive when using mcontrol
and only via Tidal when using roon.
I haven't figure out how to get roon to play files that are on the same laptop.....

Hmm. If they are both doing this, it is a bit of a mystery. I can tell you that I have had problems with thumbnail drives, and connectivity issues if I put the DA2 to sleep while the NS1 is connected (but eventually it resolves). If you haven't tried resetting the NS1 that could help.

 

[jeromelang]

Hmm. If they are both doing this, it is a bit of a mystery. I can tell you that I have had problems with thumbnail drives, and connectivity issues if I put the DA2 to sleep while the NS1 is connected (but eventually it resolves). If you haven't tried resetting the NS1 that could help.

The sync unlocked issue only happens with dsd files if I'm playing from the USB plugged into the NS1. For the purpose of checking, I've purchased a number of 192kHz/96kHz downloads, and they don't have the sync unlocked issue.

But I still have to make sure I don't play 192kHz and 96kHz files interchangeably, as the sample rate change can cause sound degradation on the subsequent track. I've confirmed this by playing groups of same sample rate at one go or tracks with different sample rates alternatively.

 

[jeromelang]

Playing digital files alternatively with different sample rates is not a good thing.
Just confirmed that on the oppo205 player.

 

[parnass]

Did someone direct A/B comparison DA2 vs DA2 after V2 upgrade ?

I'm pretty satisfied with NS1 - DA2 combo… but i would consider upgrade, if its worth it (5.000 usd)

I read “the update review” from Fred Crowder, but I'm curious about more experiences.

 

[tonytsui]

Did someone direct A/B comparison DA2 vs DA2 after V2 upgrade ?

I'm pretty satisfied with NS1 - DA2 combo… but i would consider upgrade, if its worth it (5.000 usd)

I read “the update review” from Fred Crowder, but I'm curious about more experiences.

The upgrade is worth every penny, do go for it! There are discussions of the upgrade either in this forum or elsewhere. Essentially the upgrade transform the DA2 in all respects.

 

[gfroman]

Hey Guys -
Finally got the NS1 connected to the DV2.
I'm new to streaming so I have some basic questions.
EMM suggest downloading MConnect so you can use your iPad/phone as a controller.
I just joined Qobuz and everything synced up fine.
Music sounds great thru the OptilInk cable.

The question is, why would I need to subscribe to Roon in addition to what I have now?
I also have about 7000 music files that I listen through JRiver Media Center 27.
I only listen to music in my office and main A/V Room.
Thanks!

 

[Ian B]

Hey Guys -
Finally got the NS1 connected to the DV2.
I'm new to streaming so I have some basic questions.
EMM suggest downloading MConnect so you can use your iPad/phone as a controller.
I just joined Qobuz and everything synced up fine.
Music sounds great thru the OptilInk cable.

The question is, why would I need to subscribe to Roon in addition to what I have now?
I also have about 7000 music files that I listen through JRiver Media Center 27.
I only listen to music in my office and main A/V Room.
Thanks!

I'm not a Roon user and wondering the same question. I was using an Innuos Zenith for file storage and mainly got the NS1 for sound quality (electrical isolation), and then the Zenith actually went south and had to be replaced. In the meantime I started using a USB hard drive with the NS1 and MConnect and found that the Innuos was actually totally redundant for my uses. Now Innuos sent me me a brand new replacement and the only reason to keep it and not sell it is as a Roon core. I'm really wondering if running Roon is worth holding on to an otherwise unnecessary Zenith plus the cost of software.

 

[jeromelang]

Roon and mconnect have very discernible sound differences. You may or may not like it. It's worth taking the free 14 days trial to experiment with it.

But wait till tomorrow until the new 1.8v firmware is out.

Meanwhile, using roon, I can play through the Oppo 205 at the office all the files I have on my laptop, and all my Tidal/Qobuz playlists.... (Makes me regret not getting a 205 for the home too)

 

[Ian B]

Roon and mconnect have very discernible sound differences. You may or may not like it. It's worth taking the free 14 days trial to experiment with it.

But wait till tomorrow until the new 1.8v firmware is out.

Meanwhile, using roon, I can play through the Oppo 205 at the office all the files I have on my laptop, and all my Tidal/Qobuz playlists.... (Makes me regret not getting a 205 for the home too)

Are you able to describe the sound differences? I've been told before that Roon audio quality wasn't as good as Squeezebox on my Innuos.

 

[jeromelang]

Are you able to describe the sound differences? I've been told before that Roon audio quality wasn't as good as Squeezebox on my Innuos.

In general, Roon sounds more weighty, is slightly more forward, has more focused imaging with cleaner outlines.
Mconnect imaging is more diffused and laidback.

Remember never to play tracks with different sampling rates one after another during your sound comparison.

 

[Ian B]

In general, Roon sounds more weighty, is slightly more forward, has more focused imaging with cleaner outlines.
Mconnect imaging is more diffused and laidback.

Remember never to play tracks with different sampling rates one after another during your sound comparison.

Interesting. If there was anything I didn't prefer with the NS1/MConnect/Opto is the diffuse quality compared to Innuos/Squeezebox via USB. (Although it's no contest that the NS1/Opto is better on overall SQ)

 

[parnass]

im using roon for about 5 years, for organisation of library and find out new music is it definitely the best …. according SQ… i made compression only against audirvana (roon is more neutral audirvana little bit sweetened ) there is new version of roon (1.8) and SQ of Roon is now better then few days ago

 

[Yuen A.]

Hi folks,

Jonathan Valin rave about the Soulution 760 DAC (From the January issue of The Absolute Sound: “The Soulution 760 DAC was, for JV, the surprise of the audio season, Indeed, it turned out to be such a paragon that - if you listen only or primarily to ones and zeroes - JV (previously not much of a fan of digital) would be hard put to recommend anything else over it, regardless of price. Combining a world class linestage with a Leedh Processing volume control and an ultra-wide bandwidth, ultra-low distortion, ingeniously phase-corrected DAC the 760 offers so much more of what JV likes and expects to hear from the best recorded music that it virtually lives in a class of its own. Here, finally, is a substantial taste of the whole package -air, bloom, space, dimensionality, dynamic scale, electrifying transient response, fabulous low end, and (for once) equally fabulous upper-mids and treble. And you get all this with the usual digital flatness and brightness stripped away, which for JV raises the pleasure quotient a thousand-fold. The Soulution 760 is (by a considerable margin) the most musical DAC JV has heard, and a shoo-in for TAS’ DAC of the Year Award.”).

I am familiar with the Soulution 760 DAC but without the LEEDH Upgrade (volume control), having heard it over a long period of time before the pandemic, in the local Soulution's showroom. However, I was not impressed. The EMM Labs DA2 V2/DV2 is MUCH better than the 760 in most areas, but especially in the following: micro details - overtones/harmonics, air, bloom, space, dimensionality, dynamic scale, transient response, lower-mids, treble sweetness and ambience retrieval.

I agree with Doug Schneider, editor of Soundstage! Hi-Fi (01, March 2021), when he says: "The DA2 V2 is one of the very best DACs on the market today and sounds so good to my ears that I have trouble listening to anything else after I listen to it, so it’s all I want to use for the bulk of my reviews—at least for now."