Epiphany, have you had one in audio?

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike:

I have seen photos of your room and it is beautiful. And I'm sure it is sonically excellent as well. But I would also suspect it is not soncially PERFECT.

Headphones, with all of their many shortcomings, many that you noted, still have the ability to demonstrate the problems of every room if that is what you are listening for.

Not since the 1960's have I used headphone for serious listening but I do use them as an invaluable tool for improving my room.

agree that no room is perfect. mine is not either.

but.....the fact is that the ear-headphone interface is not any better than the best rooms....in fact likely worse. it's only that headphones do have the ability to be consistent and be purpose built to fully optimize their environment to minimize their issues. but not to eliminate them. and those issues still limit what they can do.

headphones can solve problems typically found in rooms, but...when those room problems are eliminated or heroically reduced (noise, overly damped, non-coherence in drivers, less than ideal set-up) then headphones are exposed as lacking. because the theoretical problems of headphones are more challenging than the theoretical problems of rooms. as a room approaches the ideal it leaves headphones behind.

headphones have an advantage over most rooms, but not all rooms.

 

[FrantzM]

agree that no room is perfect. mine is not either. <snip> ...

but.....the fact is that the ear-headphone interface is not any better than the best rooms....in fact likely worse. it's only that headphones do have the ability to be consistent and be purpose built to fully optimize their environment to minimize their issues. but not to eliminate them. and those issues still limit what they can do.

Can you substantiate this assertion? I am not of this opinion simply because of the direct coupling of the headphones to your ears.. There is no room and the problems are certainly diminished. it still is not perfect. I listen mostly to headphones these days not because i prefer it per se but because it is , for now the best mean to achieve great the level of fidelity, I seek because of a lack of dedicated room.
I am not sure headphones have no bass .. mine all three of them (Denon, Ultrasone and HiFiMan) do and with clarity and power with the Denon maybe too much ... Their bass will not move pants leg or get to your chest but ... Also I don't I agree with you on the notion of decay ... either. The decay of sound in a room is quite complex and likely different from that on the recording. Think about the decay in a large concert hall and how different that must be from that in ANY audiophile room ... one may like it ... with headphone it is what was put on the recording ...
Yet I prefer listening to music through speakers too. It remains that as a tool and a reference headphones remain to me a reference. One which I want my next serious room to aspire to.

 

[jazdoc]

As usual, Mike is being modest. Having been lucky enough to enjoy several listening sessions, I can attest his room's sonic excellence. More importantly, Mike has created a warm, inviting and relaxing environment. It's just a great space to unwind, enjoy music and friends. A visit is always a joy because Mike is the consumate host.

One of the important things I've learned from our listening sessions (wouldn't call it an 'epiphany' because it sunk in slowly) is how critically your extrinsic environment contributes to musical enjoyment. One of the reasons I like going to small venues, i.e. bars, rather than a stadium when I listen to music; I like the atmosphere and the people. Conversely, one of the reasons I don't like headphones is that the experience is solitary and I seek the communal aspect of the musical experience.

 

[RUR]

How do headphone afficionados compensate for the lack of room gain, which was certainly heard by the mastering engineer and anticipated in the playback chain?

 

[FrantzM]

How do headphone afficionados compensate for the lack of room gain, which was certainly heard by the mastering engineer and anticipated in the playback chain?

?? Room gain as room gain in the bass? This is such a variable paramter I have my immense doubts ...

 

[RUR]

?? Room gain as room gain in the bass? This is such a variable paramter I have my immense doubts ...

Yes, it's highly variable due to the lack of standards for 2ch mastering (Toole's Circle of Confusion), but it should be present. Sean discusses both in his blog. Here the variability and here the listener preference for a linear drop at the listening position(s) from 20-20kHz.

 

[FrantzM]

Yes, it's highly variable due to the lack of standards for 2ch mastering (Toole's Circle of Confusion), but it should be present. Sean discusses both in his blog. Here the variability and here the listener preference for a linear drop at the listening position(s) from 20-20kHz.

RUR
It should but is it? It is as variable as it can be ... So what is the standard? A clock Radio? iPods? A full range speaker? in what room? There is no standards as mentioned by the persons you cited. They may have to live with thassumption that the transducers are capble of bass and besides mastering engineers routinely monitor with headphones ...

 

[tony ky ma]

Join to a live event, close to the cello or double bass instrument, one can feel wave by the body not only listen by ear, same thing when listen to the master tape in a monitor system with a good sub, one also can have same kind of feeling not exactly as live but still feel that wave to body in the room, headphone will not provide this feeling for you
tony ma

 

[mauidan]

I thought this thread was about sharing audio epiphanies.

Isn't there a headphone forum?

 

[RUR]

RUR
It should but is it? It is as variable as it can be ... So what is the standard? A clock Radio? iPods? A full range speaker? in what room? There is no standards as mentioned by the persons you cited. They may have to live with thassumption that the transducers are capble of bass and besides mastering engineers routinely monitor with headphones ...

Harman's conclusion, in part:

A flat in-room target response is clearly not the optimal target curve for room equalization. The preferred room corrections have a target response that has a smooth downward slope with increasing frequency. This tells us that listeners prefer a certain amount of natural room gain. Removing the rom gain, makes the reproduced music sound unnatural, and too thin, according to these listeners. This also makes perfect sense since the recording was likely mixed in room where the room gain was also not removed; therefore, to remove it from the consumers' listening room would destroy spectral balance of the music as intended by the artist.

This begs a question: When the engineers utilize headphones, are they listening strictly to detail in order to correct some recording/mix artifact, or for spectral balance of the finished product? If the latter, this would seem contrary to Harman's research which indicates that flat FR sounds "unnatural and too thin" and not "as intended by the artist". Perhaps Bruce can shed some light on this...

As for the gain variability , the only solution I know of is variable EQ used to "tilt" FR balance in the playback loop. Some recordings require little tilt, some much more.

 

[FrantzM]

RUR

Then EQ can be applied to the headphones as it could be with speakers ...

 

[Lee]

I'll have to research Korg and would agree with the import of mic placement and selection. Kinda curious regarding your observation pertinent to Mogami...what does pro cable commit/omit that offends, if you will

Thanks for your reply, Lee

You are most welcome. Mogami just does not have the resolution and soundstaging accuracy in my experience.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

How do headphone afficionados compensate for the lack of room gain, which was certainly heard by the mastering engineer and anticipated in the playback chain?

Headphone listeners typically don't, but most consumer headphones do. Go to the reference section and headroom (headphone.com) and check out some of the FR measurements. Almost all of the consumer phones have some rise in the bass, even the ones known for their accuracy.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Surely. We should not forget the filter effect. Most headphones used in studios modify or even suppress some zones of the frequency spectrum and the spatial information. This way it makes easier to concentrate in mid-range and treble detail, as a lot is missing!

?

Or should we find any other reason for their capability of delivering a bit more detail?

Sure - no passive crossovers, no headroom limits (unless you're dumb enough to listen to high-z phones straight out of an iPod), no comb filtering, no bass suck out, no uncontrolled room gain, no exaggeration of treble reflecting off of hard surfaces, no variations in off-axis response (due to no off-axis sound waves).......

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Sure - no passive crossovers, no headroom limits (unless you're dumb enough to listen to high-z phones straight out of an iPod), no comb filtering, no bass suck out, no uncontrolled room gain, no exaggeration of treble reflecting off of hard surfaces, no variations in off-axis response (due to no off-axis sound waves).......

Tim

I can not see how passive crossovers, headroom and the small variations in-axis typical of near filed listening affect detail. All other characteristics should not be a problem in a well designed studio.
BTW, how can we be sure that sound engineers using headphones use exactly the same loudness level that when monitoring with speakers than using headphones? (May be it would be an interesting subject for another thread).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I can not see how passive crossovers, headroom and the small variations in-axis typical of near filed listening affect detail. All other characteristics should not be a problem in a well designed studio.

Sorry, I was thinking about domestic rooms, not studios. Most good studio systems will have no passive crossovers, much less reflected sound (and more direct sound in a near field configuration) and little opportunity to get off axis. And if there are headroom issues, some very bad choices have been made by the manufacturer of the actives and/or the manager of the studio. Still, detail is not as clearly resolved as it is in headphones. There is little doubt about that to those who go back and forth between the two. Domestic hifi in the typical domestic listening (or even the fairly well treated one) doesn't even come close.

If you want to discuss what it is about passive crossovers, clipping and FR variations off-axis that can obscure detail, that is, indeed, a thread of its own.

BTW, how can we be sure that sound engineers using headphones use exactly the same loudness level that when monitoring with speakers than using headphones? (May be it would be an interesting subject for another thread).

We can't be sure of that at all. In fact, we can be sure, with different amplification systems and driver efficiencies, that the volume will often be different and that the engineer putting on the headphones will often deliberately turn them up if he's listening for a problem. It's the fact that he so consistently does put them on when he's listening for a problem that indicates that they might be more revealing of low-level details, and our ears confirm.

Tim

 

[audioguy]

Negative? Still recovering from a poor past experience?

My "poor past experience(s)" came from installing digital room correction in hundreds of different rooms. Negative meaning colorization of the sound ... meaning no room is perfect.

And I don't listen to headphones for serious listening because they don't do what I have spent a small to medium size fortune trying to get my system and room to do; things like three dimensional imaging, not only in the front plane of the room but as far around the room as the recording would allow; body moving and impactful bass; getting a sense of an event (real or otherwise); adding dimensionality to a vocalist. etc

Headphones won't, for me, re-create the original "event" but they can, in many ways, reproduce the original "sound". (And they are awesome when exercising !!)

For me, headphones have been a great tool in improving my speaker/room interface, and that is how I use them.

 

[RUR]

...Almost all of the consumer phones have some rise in the bass, even the ones known for their accuracy.

Now that makes perfect sense as it compensates for the "missing" room gain. What's the explanation for the huge FR variability above 1kHz? In my profound headphone ignorance, I would expect a more linear response, as I would from speakers.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Now that makes perfect sense as it compensates for the "missing" room gain. What's the explanation for the huge FR variability above 1kHz? In my profound headphone ignorance, I would expect a more linear response, as I would from speakers.

Well you would hope for it, but it's pretty hard to get. The transducers are still the weak link, at both ends of the chain.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

Well you would hope for it, but it's pretty hard to get. The transducers are still the weak link, at both ends of the chain.

Tim

Tim, that's true, however IMO, the ability of 'phones will never really appeal to me, why? Simply because I don't think that wearing something over your head and in/on your ears is as realistic to listening to music in an open space