finally updated my system pictures; new racks, tone arm, cartridge, change in turntables, added digital pieces
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
I read your response to Mikes response. I was thinking something similar to what Mike said. I was and was not surprised getting rid of room treatments helped. Elliot said something along the lines in another thread that homeowners can make mistakes with room treatments. I can see this. I have a suspician dealers and some room professionals over treat to, instead of focusing on optimum placement of speakers, seating and equipment. Almost like DSP guys trying to tamp it down with processing. Tamp it down with traps. That is why I supported Robert Harley and the way he did his room. I would rather a blank canvass than permanent fixtures. I did say I would open ceiling space if needed to .ake my room work. Thats was a bit knee jerk on my part. I will try surface stuff. Who knows how the room may change over time.
you mean this love tap?
that's what friends are for. and i responded in kind.
love to. set up a time with @jazdoc and i'll be there. speaker set-up in someone else's room is not one of my super powers. but i'll do what i can. it will be fun. i will bring my work clothes and expect to work up a sweat. i know jazdoc is a whimp.
i've moved heavy turntables with him.
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there is also the predisposition of sonic perspectives. dogma is dogma.
many forces can be at work. real and imagined. there are matters of taste and opinions.
@Mike Lavigne
A bit disappointing the transport is that bad without the clock. I still wonder about a Jays Audio Lab. But I don't think that would bridge the gap.
I at time consider $$$ into my server to up its performance. The solution I am told is a new JCat card with an external clock with LPS attached to the card.
Maybe what I wonder is how your TEAC would sound with a $2000 clock???? It seems the clock matters. But how far do you have to go. At least for a guy like me.
A bit disappointing the transport is that bad without the clock. I still wonder about a Jays Audio Lab. But I don't think that would bridge the gap.
I at time consider $$$ into my server to up its performance. The solution I am told is a new JCat card with an external clock with LPS attached to the card.
Maybe what I wonder is how your TEAC would sound with a $2000 clock???? It seems the clock matters. But how far do you have to go. At least for a guy like me.
i had watched Steve Guttenberg's video review and expected more from the TEAC transport naked (i did add a $1500 S/PDIF cable). but i suppose performance expectations vary from user to user. i guess i should not be surprised. but it was unlistenable to me in stock form.
my guess is that you can throw all the transports (beyond the cheapest level) into a heap, and choose one. any one. then the one with the best interface will win, until you bring in a heavy hitting clock and clock cable then that will trounce the one with the best interface.
the mechanicals are besides the point. it's all about the clock. the interface might provide a good clock, but not in the league with the best stand alone clocks.
beyond that is the dac, and if you have a Wadax dac with forward looking error correction then winner-winner chicken dinner.
i do expect that any decent clock and clock cable will take you from a digital sounding transport, to another level. how the actual transition will go and at what price point i don't know. but i would not fall in love with any transport in and of itself. it's the clock.
but as i sit here and listen to this transport now as i go along, it's quite clear what is going on.
my viewpoint here is quite narrow so i'm just a data point right now, not the whole picture. it could be a more nuanced situation than it appears from where i sit. i expected that maybe my clock might be a factor, but i had no idea how much.
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yes, and live music can be used as a reference against which to judge and to combat those dark forces.
I have always suspected Teac, Esoteric and DCS to dumb down their internal clocks, so you can really hear a difference when the expensive clock gets added. Other manufacturers manage to make great sounding machines without external clocks, just another expensive box to sell.
i've never gone to the trouble to compare 'uber' clocks myself, but i have seen shootouts about them. but from what i have read, separate chassis, power supplies, and exotic approaches do result in performance advances, which do equate to better sound. i know that some pro audio facilities spend big bucks on clocks as it pays dividends.I have always suspected Teac, Esoteric and DCS to dumb down their internal clocks, so you can really hear a difference when the expensive clock gets added. Other manufacturers manage to make great sounding machines without external clocks, just another expensive box to sell.
on board clocks i'm sure run the gamut of performance. are some dumbed down? i suppose it's possible.
what my Esoteric G1X clock did for my Esoteric T1 turntable was subtle but musically significant, and the transformation of this modest TEAC transport is hard to argue with.
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In studios they have a lot of different machines syncing up to a common clock, it makes sense. Companies like Gryphon, Burmester, MBL and Kalista manage to make reference CD players without external clocks.
you mean this love tap?
that's what friends are for. and i responded in kind.
love to. set up a time with @jazdoc and i'll be there. speaker set-up in someone else's room is not one of my super powers. but i'll do what i can. it will be fun. i will bring my work clothes and expect to work up a sweat. i know jazdoc is a whimp.
I prefer 'weakling'...
How many hours on the new Transport before you went to the uber expensive clock?.... Unless a minimum of 100 hours on the Teac, I suspect part of what you were experiencing ( unpleasant, brittle, etc.) may be because of that... I have not used your particular transport, however have experience with several others over the years, and they did require some time to settle, etc.
fair enough. your point is legit.
i played it for 45 minutes and it did improve a little, then i got anxious about what i was hearing. in my post i mention my experience is narrow, only a data point, and there may be nuance i'm missing. my feeling was that the degree of change from the Clock, which was immediate like turning on a switch, far exceeded any break-in factor. there is no analog output stage or signal path involved. just a data path to the S/PDIF rca output.
i will say that since i installed the clock 50 cable, things have improved a bit in ease. so who knows? i'd never use this transport without a clock, but others might, and that would be good to know.
easy enough to remove the clock 50 BNC cable from time to time and see if there was improvement in it's degree of the 'naked' transport digital signature as time builds with more use of it. i'm sure that will happen accidently a few times as for now i only have one single Clock 50 cable i'll have to switch back and forth between the TEAC transport and the Esoteric T1 turntable. which i play multiple times a week.
i hate to plug and unplug cables generally, as it can never help a plug, but at least a BNC connector is more robust than alternatives.
So Mike, you're saying the same clock that controls the tachometer for your Esoteric turntable, it's the same one that processes the signal with your TEAC transport. It took me a minute to put together what you were saying That's crazy a TT motor comtroller benefit enough from a external clock that one would spend $17k to get that last bit of good. I remember Joe Pitman years back telling me about a power cable upgrade to a TT motor improves the sound from the TT. It sounded crazy to most people back then. Myself included. I didn't gwt it. Now its not just a power cord. It's an external clock. Crazy times.
Indeed, the TEAC model may even be sufficient to bring about a substantial improvement: https://teac.jp/int/product/cg-10m-a/feature
got the Esoteric T1 turntable March 23', the clock arrived for it April 23'. there was much discussion of it at that time on that thread and you were there a little too.
so with this transport, i was lucky i had already invested in the exact perfect tool to optimize it. it had been in the back of my mind that somehow i would discover a side benefit of my $27k (not $17k) clock investment. maybe other streamers already with a nice dac have a clock around they could insert with this transport? hard to make a case not to do that.
turntable motors and power supplies are critical things, especially as performance improves and noise floors of systems drop, these type things become the limitations of performance, so small incremental steps are where we see the best separate from the very good. not everyone equally believes power cords should (can) be improved. YMMV.
Joe's power cord thinking came mostly from Gary Koh of Genesis Loudspeakers, who made most of the power cords (Absolute Fidelity power interface cables) in my system. Gary's perspective is that ideal power cords for motors, amplifiers, and sources are different and he tunes them differently. i hear what Gary hears. and Joe agreed.
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I don't think I realized the clock for a TT motor was the same thing as a clock for a server/DAC interface.
Durand Tosca Limited Edition tone arm upgrade.
background.....a few months ago I reluctantly sold my Wave Kinetics NVS turntable for a number of system development reasons, which freed up my Taiko Tana active platform which I had under the NVS, for duty under the Esoteric T1 turntable. I had been skeptical it would be a positive there, but it was most definitely that. it raised the performance of all three arms. but it clearly boosted the Primary Control Field Coil arm more than my standard Durand Tosca Gimbal bearing arm. and therefore changed the hierarchy of my tonearm/cartridge combo's. the FCL/Etsuro Gold combo moved clearly ahead of the Tosca/DaVa combo.
I had been dragging my feet on the Tosca Limited Edition upgrade for a year, after hearing it at the 23' California Audio Show. but now it's potential was more needed to compliment the new higher performance of the Esoteric. unfortunately to keep the wifey happy something would have to be sold to assist the upgrade kitty, and that ended up being my 2nd Etsuro Gold which had been on the CS Port. it sold quickly without advertising it (the new owner is thrilled), and I dropped off my Tosca at Joel Durand's home two weeks ago. yesterday Joel came over to install it. on the way to my place, he stopped at my friend Andrey Kosobutsky's home (ATR Service INC) to get the DaVa power supply wire installed inside the arm wand so it would no longer need to wrap around the arm wand, attached by thin strips of tape.
I already knew somewhat how it would sound, but I am very happy with having this upgrade. I can hear a higher level of everything from the DaVa Reference cartridge. lower noise, faster, more textures, greater ease, more solid and authoritative. the musical connection is more real, alive and immersive. I could not stop listening last night. not done any compares yet, but plenty of time for that. my opinion is that this Limited Edition Durand Tosca plays with the very big boys in tone arm performance.
www.durand-tonearms.com
a new standard Tosca retails for $18k, the Limited Edition retails for $34k.
I think it's a good thing that Tosca owners have an upgrade path to clearly more performance. if you upgrade a tt, or cartridge, or phono pre you can also upgrade the arm to raise everything more.
I do not know all the differences between the two levels, but what I do know and can see that is obviously new are the (1) counter weights, which are made of the unobtainium metal used for the special weights from the Telos Sapphire tone arm, and each counter weight has a sapphire sleeve. and (2) the bearing is new and made of the same unobtainium metal as the counterweights. in the picture below of the bearing you can see how the color of the bearing metal is different than the stainless steel outer housing.
background.....a few months ago I reluctantly sold my Wave Kinetics NVS turntable for a number of system development reasons, which freed up my Taiko Tana active platform which I had under the NVS, for duty under the Esoteric T1 turntable. I had been skeptical it would be a positive there, but it was most definitely that. it raised the performance of all three arms. but it clearly boosted the Primary Control Field Coil arm more than my standard Durand Tosca Gimbal bearing arm. and therefore changed the hierarchy of my tonearm/cartridge combo's. the FCL/Etsuro Gold combo moved clearly ahead of the Tosca/DaVa combo.
I had been dragging my feet on the Tosca Limited Edition upgrade for a year, after hearing it at the 23' California Audio Show. but now it's potential was more needed to compliment the new higher performance of the Esoteric. unfortunately to keep the wifey happy something would have to be sold to assist the upgrade kitty, and that ended up being my 2nd Etsuro Gold which had been on the CS Port. it sold quickly without advertising it (the new owner is thrilled), and I dropped off my Tosca at Joel Durand's home two weeks ago. yesterday Joel came over to install it. on the way to my place, he stopped at my friend Andrey Kosobutsky's home (ATR Service INC) to get the DaVa power supply wire installed inside the arm wand so it would no longer need to wrap around the arm wand, attached by thin strips of tape
.I already knew somewhat how it would sound, but I am very happy with having this upgrade. I can hear a higher level of everything from the DaVa Reference cartridge. lower noise, faster, more textures, greater ease, more solid and authoritative. the musical connection is more real, alive and immersive. I could not stop listening last night. not done any compares yet, but plenty of time for that. my opinion is that this Limited Edition Durand Tosca plays with the very big boys in tone arm performance.
The Tosca | Durand Tonearms
The Tosca tonearm by Durand Tonearms. The latest tonearm once again pushes the boundaries of tonearm design.
www.durand-tonearms.com
a new standard Tosca retails for $18k, the Limited Edition retails for $34k.
I think it's a good thing that Tosca owners have an upgrade path to clearly more performance. if you upgrade a tt, or cartridge, or phono pre you can also upgrade the arm to raise everything more.
I do not know all the differences between the two levels, but what I do know and can see that is obviously new are the (1) counter weights, which are made of the unobtainium metal used for the special weights from the Telos Sapphire tone arm, and each counter weight has a sapphire sleeve. and (2) the bearing is new and made of the same unobtainium metal as the counterweights. in the picture below of the bearing you can see how the color of the bearing metal is different than the stainless steel outer housing.
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For sure you have a beautiful system but your avatar picture. Incredible beautiful. Both house and background..The mountains...I have difficult to see that beaten.