First trials of active horn speaker

[morricab]

Update:

After putting the Beyma CP350TI/Iwata 600 up to 2Khz and getting very nice sound with that setup, I switched the drivers to the Radians, set them up at 2Khz and got out the measuring tools. Other than roll off starting above 5-6Khz, the response was very flat as measured (+- about 2db from 80-5000Hz.) With a mild boost at 10Khz to still have a small roll off but a bit more air (response down a few db at 20Khz) I settled in to listen. In some ways there is more information coming from the Radian in terms of "apparent" detail, it also seems noisier between the notes and the feeling of flatness did not disappear completely. I found it again after a while to be fatiguing, where with the Beyma it is never fatiguing sounding (even though it measured very similiarly). After that, I went back to the Beyma CP755Ti + 18 sound XT1464 (moving the xo back to 1Khz and putting the HF eq back to what is best for that combo) and immediately it was much easier to listen to without the feeling of it pressing on you.

At this point, it is starting to look like the Radian and Iwata are somehow not a good match (I had a similar issue with the Beyma + 18 sound XT120...moving it to the Iwata was like AHHHH!). Perhaps the Radian + the XT120 at around 2.5Khz would work well if the exit angle matches that horn better. Maybe I will get a JMLC horn like hORNs uses with Radians to see if that works better...maybe not. They are proving surprisingly analytical sounding despite the now more comfortable xo and measuring to demonstrate a good response that also shouldn't give a sharp impression (as I noted, there is a rolloff down a few db at the listening position).

For now, I am preferring the cheaper setup (driver and horn) as it is more robust, blends better with the main driver and simply sounds easy and free with great tone (especially now with the 300B amps on the horns).

Will keep experimenting, but the preference is definitely shaping up...

 

[Robh3606]

Just a bump how are things going??

Rob

 

[morricab]

Just a bump how are things going??

Rob

Not much time to work on the project at the moment; however, I did switch back now to the Radian 475pbBe drivers in the Iwata 600 horns crossed at 2Khz. I need to do more tuning but the initial impression is more detail than I get from the larger format driver but it is not that more is there just that it seems more obvious. I am still not sure that the change from the small EL84 PP amp (WLM Minueta in triode mode) to the 300B WE 91 derivative amps was a net positive. They seem more resolute but also seem to push the sound forward more, which is something the horns don't need any help with.

I will also switch to the Beyma CP350Ti driver on the Iwata 600s to see if that still sounds as good as I remember...

Perhaps I will never settle on a single design or it might spin off two completely different designs. But at the moment if I had to settle on one driver/horn combo to go with the Supravox driver, it would be the 18 Sound XT1464 + Beyma CP750Ti combo, which works brilliantly.

 

[kjartanb]

Not much time to work on the project at the moment; however, I did switch back now to the Radian 475pbBe drivers in the Iwata 600 horns crossed at 2Khz. I need to do more tuning but the initial impression is more detail than I get from the larger format driver but it is not that more is there just that it seems more obvious. I am still not sure that the change from the small EL84 PP amp (WLM Minueta in triode mode) to the 300B WE 91 derivative amps was a net positive. They seem more resolute but also seem to push the sound forward more, which is something the horns don't need any help with.

I will also switch to the Beyma CP350Ti driver on the Iwata 600s to see if that still sounds as good as I remember...

Perhaps I will never settle on a single design or it might spin off two completely different designs. But at the moment if I had to settle on one driver/horn combo to go with the Supravox driver, it would be the 18 Sound XT1464 + Beyma CP750Ti combo, which works brilliantly.

I agree with you Morricab. I have a pair of the same 300B monoblocks and they are good amps. But some of the more modern LPs with close-miced singers, let the singers get far too large and too close for my liking on my Altec A5s. Older LPs are fine. Im currently using DIY First Watt amps - day to day as I use the same system for movies and Tv. But like to use the 300Bs once in a while. Sometimes I also use powerful class D amps to get the exciting raw feeling of live rock music.

 

[morricab]

Update: New horns on the way!

Just bought a new pair of horns from LMH

Home

Highend Manufaktur rund um Hornlautsprecher und Komponenten. Hersteller der Hölzhörner r-Trak - sTrak & eTrak. Sonderanfertigungen & Kleinserien.

www.lautsprechermanufaktur-heyder.de

 

[Robh3606]

What are they?? Tractrix Exponential?? 1" 1.5" 2"?

Rob

 

[morricab]

What are they?? Tractrix Exponential?? 1" 1.5" 2"?

Rob

Tractrix 550hz cutoff, stacked birch plywood, CNC milled , 1.4 inch throat.

 

[morricab]

 

[cjfrbw]

How do you like them, or are they still in evaluation phase?

 

[morricab]

How do you like them, or are they still in evaluation phase?

Initial trials are quite good! The sound is smooth and detailed but I will need to do some adjustments relative to the previous horns. I was getting a tiny bit of horn coloration on some voices on the previous horns that I think will be absent on these…many more trials to commence…

 

[morricab]

Major Update!

I just acquired an Accuphase F-15L active crossover to replace the digital crossover. I still need to do measurements to dial it all in properly (tuned by ear for the moment) but it works superbly!

The Accuphase seems to be very transparent and the blend of drivers is every bit as good as I got digitally. I will let the Accuphase cook for a few days before final tuning as it was likely not played in quite awhile but fresh out of the box from Japan it’s sounding like a winner. I was a bit worried it would a strong SS signature, like the Bryston crossover but it doesn’t seem to. Dynamics don’t seem to be impacted either.

The best news is now I can run my analog through the whole system, which I couldn’t do with the digital xover.

I thought the 1800hz crossover would be a detriment (with digital I got the best results at 1000hz xover) but it works well. I will still try to get a 1khz board for it but this might open up options for my other horn/driver to work better than it did in the digital setup (Beyma CP-350Ti and horns Iwata 600).

The last piece of the puzzle will be coming in a couple of weeks. I will replace my Taiwanese 300B WE91 “like” monos with a Silvercore 2A3 integrated amp. This is all transformer coupled and with top parts. This amp will drive the horn. The Ayon Spark will remain on the bass/mid.

Ultimately, I may end up with a tube xover but for the near future this will be the final setup of tis DIY system.
I will post some pictures soon.

 

[morricab]

Sounding really great with analog!!

Here is the whole rig now:



The Accuphase F-15L is sitting on the rack just below the Ayon Spark. At the bottom is an APL DSD-AR DAC and a Monarchy Audio M24 DAC. The amps on the floor are Ladyday LD+ 300b monos from Taiwan, based on the WE91 circuit.


The turntable is a Yamaha GT-2000 with external power supply and vacuum holddown. Cartridge is a VdH Frog. The phonostage is a one-off Silvaweld SWH-650 with tube regulated power supply. At the bottom is the Yamaha GT-2000 power supply and a Monarchy Audio power regenerator (for the phonostage and DAC). On the floor is a Behringer DEQ 2496 for making room measurements. There is also a small shunt resistor passive preamp to regulate the 300B monos.

Cabling is a mismash but speaker cables are Boenicke (based on LessLoss Cmarc wire) and Vacuumstate (copper foil). Interconnects are Vacuumstate silver foil and Goertz silver foil.

 

[adrianywu]

Major Update!

I just acquired an Accuphase F-15L active crossover to replace the digital crossover. I still need to do measurements to dial it all in properly (tuned by ear for the moment) but it works superbly!

The Accuphase seems to be very transparent and the blend of drivers is every bit as good as I got digitally. I will let the Accuphase cook for a few days before final tuning as it was likely not played in quite awhile but fresh out of the box from Japan it’s sounding like a winner. I was a bit worried it would a strong SS signature, like the Bryston crossover but it doesn’t seem to. Dynamics don’t seem to be impacted either.

The best news is now I can run my analog through the whole system, which I couldn’t do with the digital xover.

I thought the 1800hz crossover would be a detriment (with digital I got the best results at 1000hz xover) but it works well. I will still try to get a 1khz board for it but this might open up options for my other horn/driver to work better than it did in the digital setup (Beyma CP-350Ti and horns Iwata 600).

The last piece of the puzzle will be coming in a couple of weeks. I will replace my Taiwanese 300B WE91 “like” monos with a Silvercore 2A3 integrated amp. This is all transformer coupled and with top parts. This amp will drive the horn. The Ayon Spark will remain on the bass/mid.

Ultimately, I may end up with a tube xover but for the near future this will be the final setup of tis DIY system.
I will post some pictures soon.

Congratulations. I have been using an Accuphase F25 for many years. The crossover is extremely transparent and dead quiet. The only problem is, the company no longer sells the frequency boards (they continued to do so for more than a decade after the production of the unit ceased) and the price of the boards has really gone up in the second hand market. I have never found any of the Accuphase equipment to sound "solid state", unlike some other Japanese brands such as Esoteric.

 

[morricab]

Congratulations. I have been using an Accuphase F25 for many years. The crossover is extremely transparent and dead quiet. The only problem is, the company no longer sells the frequency boards (they continued to do so for more than a decade after the production of the unit ceased) and the price of the boards has really gone up in the second hand market. I have never found any of the Accuphase equipment to sound "solid state", unlike some other Japanese brands such as Esoteric.

Thx, I also had an F25 many years ago but sold it when changed my setup. So, I knew I was getting something similar with the F15.

 

[morricab]

my new tweeter amp:


This was originally a kit from Silvercore in their earlier days. It was built by the designer and is running a Russian 6C45p transformer coupled to 2A3 output tubes...I guess 3-4 watts. There is a ton of iron here (all Silvercore transformers and chokes) so the whole thing weighs a very solid 30Kg.

Sonic impressions coming soon compared to the 300B monos it will replace...

 

[Fishfood]

my new tweeter amp:

View attachment 103828 View attachment 103829 View attachment 103830
This was originally a kit from Silvercore in their earlier days. It was built by the designer and is running a Russian 6C45p transformer coupled to 2A3 output tubes...I guess 3-4 watts. There is a ton of iron here (all Silvercore transformers and chokes) so the whole thing weighs a very solid 30Kg.

Sonic impressions coming soon compared to the 300B monos it will replace...

Love Silverware amps. Lusting after one...

 

[adrianywu]

my new tweeter amp:

View attachment 103828 View attachment 103829 View attachment 103830
This was originally a kit from Silvercore in their earlier days. It was built by the designer and is running a Russian 6C45p transformer coupled to 2A3 output tubes...I guess 3-4 watts. There is a ton of iron here (all Silvercore transformers and chokes) so the whole thing weighs a very solid 30Kg.

Sonic impressions coming soon compared to the 300B monos it will replace...

I used to run my tweeters (Acapella plasma tweeters from 5kHz to 50kHz) with a pair of balanced differential 300B amps. I built the Nelson Pass Amp camp mini kits for fun and ran them in balanced mono configuration for the tweeters. They are flat to 50kHz as well, and I prefer these to my 300B amps in this position, even though they are 1/3 of the cost of a single WE300B ! I continue to run the horn mid-range with 300B amps, and the continuity of the sound is perfect.

 

[morricab]

Latest update: I have received a 800Hz board for my Accuphase active xover. Swapping that in for the 1800Hz board is a clear improvement in clarity and space. As good as the Supravox driver is, covering a lower range with the superb Beyma CP755TI just opens up the sound much more.
Now it is also let’s me hear what an improvement the round wooden Tractrix horn is over the 18 sound XT1464 horn.
One of the biggest surprises was the increase of space and depth I got from the frequency shift. Cool stuff.

Oh, one other big benefit is timing and dynamic punch…which tightened and slams harder now…wasn’t expecting that!

 

[Solypsa]

.now it is also let’s me hear what an improvement the round wooden Tractrix horn is over the 18 sound XT1464 horn.

What aspects do you attribute to changing horns? ( I know it's hard to separate such things as material, profile, cutoff etc )

 

[morricab]

What aspects do you attribute to changing horns? ( I know it's hard to separate such things as material, profile, cutoff etc )

There was some nasality with the 18 sound horns with some vocals that is totally absent with the wood horns. Is it the wood ? The shape? Hard to say but I think the 18 sound horns are very competently designed and I don’t think it’s profile, which is very sophisticated to avoid resonance but I think the material is kind of thin plastic that probably causes it. I might damp them and see again.