For those with the cojones...and chequebook to match!

[Al M.]

Where is FrantzM when we need him?

I posed a question a few years ago if fancy casework (billet aluminum etc) for amps had any practical effect on sound and not a single person answered. Dan Dagostino admitted he designed form over function first in this latest iteration. As such, a lot of the final price of equipment these days is probably not justified and more in context with a regular luxury item.

Also point to the used market - very high MSRP gear usually has the worst resale.

This post seems a perfect antidote to the attitude of certain posters here.

 

[PeterA]

This post seems a perfect antidote to the attitude of certain posters here.

I liked the brutalist form follows function aesthetics of my former Pass Labs Aleph 2 monoblocks. I also really liked the massive billet aluminum faceplate and meter of my next Pass XA160 monoblocks. Those Pass faceplates were much discussed on forums and in the audio press. They certainly contributed to the price of those amps and probably had little if any effect on the sonics, but they looked pretty darn cool and probably helped sell a lot of that generation of designs helping to support the business and the future development of new products.

I think as long as we are still operating in a free market economy, and people are able to decide for themselves whether or not to buy an audiocomponent, the manufacturer is justified to build these products if he can sell them.

Al, What is the attitude of certain posters here to which Keith's post seems a perfect antidote? I don't think I follow your point. Could you please elaborate?

 

[RogerD]

This post seems a perfect antidote to the attitude of certain posters here.

Well I doubt that if your willing to spend 250k for a amplifier,does the buyer think about why the designer made the case weigh 150 pounds just to mitigate vibration and maybe EMI...seems to me a waste and very inefficient. That goes for most of the equipment mentioned above.

 

[microstrip]

Where is FrantzM when we need him?

I posed a question a few years ago if fancy casework (billet aluminum etc) for amps had any practical effect on sound and not a single person answered. Dan Dagostino admitted he designed form over function first in this latest iteration. As such, a lot of the final price of equipment these days is probably not justified and more in context with a regular luxury item.

Also point to the used market - very high MSRP gear usually has the worst resale.

Just to point that I have answered several times to that question in this forum - even debated it with FrantzM long ago. The mechanical properties of the casework also define the sound quality of an amplifier. It is why designers use solid billets and tuned boxes. And Dan Agostino was not an exception - the form factor referred mainly to size, but the casework was optimized for the influence of the casework, particularly the use of copper in microsonics - I listened to him addressing this aspect and a lot more at the Momentum presentation at our distributor some years ago.

 

[microstrip]

I liked the brutalist form follows function aesthetics of my former Pass Labs Aleph 2 monoblocks. I also really liked the massive billet aluminum faceplate and meter of my next Pass XA160 monoblocks. Those Pass faceplates were much discussed on forums and in the audio press. They certainly contributed to the price of those amps and probably had little if any effect on the sonics, but they looked pretty darn cool and probably helped sell a lot of that generation of designs helping to support the business and the future development of new products.

I think as long as we are still operating in a free market economy, and people are able to decide for themselves whether or not to buy an audiocomponent, the manufacturer is justified to build these products if he can sell them.

What is the attitude of certain posters here to which Keith's post seems a perfect antidote? I don't think I follow your point. Could you please elaborate?

Peter,

It seems bizzare to me that people are prepared to accept that vibration platforms improve the sound of a solid state amplifier but find that a very large mass attached to the heatsinks where the power transistors are bolted does not affect sound quality.

 

[RogerD]

Just to point that I have answered several times to that question in this forum - even debated it with FrantzM long ago. The mechanical properties of the casework also define the sound quality of an amplifier. It is why designers use solid billets and tuned boxes. And Dan Agostino was not an exception - the form factor referred mainly to size, but the casework was optimized for the influence of the casework, particularly the use of copper in microsonics - I listened to him addressing this aspect and a lot more at the Momentum presentation at our distributor some years ago.

B.S ....the copper and casework has a effect on EMI mitigation..Which can be dealt with in other less expensive ways.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

It seems bizzare to me that people are prepared to accept that vibration platforms improve the sound of a solid state amplifier but find that a very large mass attached to the heatsinks where the power transistors are bolted does not affect sound quality.

I see your point, but those Pass faceplates are not attached to the heatsinks. Perhaps if they were, the box would not ring as much as it does. I would like the whole amp to be much less susceptible to vibration.

The Vibraplanes do indeed improve the sound of my SS amps. I wish the casework were more robust. I can't speak to the designs of other amplifiers. The older Pass designs, preamps and amps used much thicker casework.

 

[NorthStar]

I like solid amps like Boulder amplifiers; they have six thick solid surfaces, not thin aluminum foil paper flapping in the wind and resonating/ringing in tandem with the music playing and bouncing.

 

[Al M.]

I liked the brutalist form follows function aesthetics of my former Pass Labs Aleph 2 monoblocks. I also really liked the massive billet aluminum faceplate and meter of my next Pass XA160 monoblocks. Those Pass faceplates were much discussed on forums and in the audio press. They certainly contributed to the price of those amps and probably had little if any effect on the sonics, but they looked pretty darn cool and probably helped sell a lot of that generation of designs helping to support the business and the future development of new products.

I think as long as we are still operating in a free market economy, and people are able to decide for themselves whether or not to buy an audiocomponent, the manufacturer is justified to build these products if he can sell them.

Your amps, Peter, are not in the price range I had in mind.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I do not believe you would not be happy if an AF0 magically appeared in your listening room for free, completely set-up and ready to play.

I can honestly say I wouldn't want it. I have the highest regard for the designer, but I'm totally averse to the concept of things in the uber high end of all consumer items.
I wouldn't take a Veyron, Pagani, La Ferrari, or Mercedes AMG Black either.
I've had the odd chat w friends about how one's habits would change if we won big on EuroSquillions, and I can honestly say I'd be resistant to the upward pressure to go to the top hotels, the top restaraunts, and yes, the so-called top hifi.
Again, this is not implicit criticism of AF0, it's that the concept of such gear, and other eye watering consumer gear leaves me unaffected.
That's just me.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Marc,
I agree and feel that everyone probably has an approximate preconception for a price guide for what they see as good value in most things... and so suddenly having a lot more reserves may not then necessarily (or immediately) change that price cap and also that this price point varies for all of us.

I would love to have Thomas Mayer amplification but they would be at the very, very upper limit of what I might spend for amps (if I could actually afford it so a very moot question) and only then because they might also satisfy an artisanal as well as sonic high for me... and as you so rightly put it that’s just me.

But also equally I have no conflict if people see their personal threshold for the same type of product as being considerably higher and so then spend way more. If it also contributes back to the economy and provides employment then that is something of a benefit.

There is a significant (and hopeful) part of me that looks towards a future that also sees civilisation develop in a way that all have fair access to sufficient food, quality water and shelter and good essential levels of healthcare but the incredible minority in the super high end going out and maybe say buying one less investment property and then injecting it across into a mega audio system isn’t necessarily going to be in competition or a solution for the big picture of provision of essential equity for humankind... so consumption of one may not act significantly against provision of the other.

 

[thedudeabides]

There is no point at which politics merges with the affordability of audio gear.

Disagree totally. I used the word in a much broader context, that being the politics of hi end audio pricing practices. In this context, "identity politics" is a relevant example.

 

[asiufy]

Good earlier post by Billy, thanks for that.
I don't oppose cost-no-object products, as long as they perform as such. And, all of such products that I've heard and been familiar with, are indeed in a league of their own.
Since Dan D'Agostino was mentioned, the copper is indeed function over form. Where the "form" and extra cost comes into play is in the actual treatment and the finish of both the copper and the aluminum chassis. Dan chose a custom pattern/finish, that's very smooth and very nice to look and touch at. Sure, he could've saved THAT cost, but he thought (correctly I'd say) that since everything else is at such a high standard, saving a few bucks on the case made no sense.
There's tons of products out there that are true quality products, but with bland cases/finishes. I see no point in belittling great products just because they are finished to a higher standard (and thus cost more).

 

[KeithR]

Since Dan D'Agostino was mentioned, the copper is indeed function over form. Where the "form" and extra cost comes into play is in the actual treatment and the finish of both the copper and the aluminum chassis. Dan chose a custom pattern/finish, that's very smooth and very nice to look and touch at. Sure, he could've saved THAT cost, but he thought (correctly I'd say) that since everything else is at such a high standard, saving a few bucks on the case made no sense.
There's tons of products out there that are true quality products, but with bland cases/finishes. I see no point in belittling great products just because they are finished to a higher standard (and thus cost more).

Dan's a watch guy and wanted a Breguet-looking jewel of an amp, hence the meters. He started with a size he wanted and went from there. Its all documented on paper and in person- he even mentions Asia requested a jewel like product to look at:

"About two years ‘before’, I was in Tokyo with my Japanese distributor and asked what kind of product he’d want. He started to describe a product that was beautifully finished, with no fasteners showing, with no tiny buttons that have little legends you can’t read; something that looks beautiful, and feels beautiful, and is not too powerful."

And there is nothing wrong with this approach. If people want luxury, Dan made it happen and might have better sales because of it.

I like Dan's new amps - his old ones weren't very good. His personal story shared about how he made the Momentums sound good had nothing to do with the case, either. He actually made a circuit change while a few friends were over listening.

 

[asiufy]

You didn't write anything that wasn't known before, and didn't contradict anything I've said myself.
You have no appreciation for that particular look and/or that particular level of attention to detail in the case finish. But I can assure you that, if you're going to spent that much money on an amp, whether it's $50k, $60k, whatever, at that level, you gotta have top notch finish, regardless. Call it icing on the cake, but it's gotta look the part. And, as I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going for a better looking device, even if means it'll end up costing a little bit more.
Maybe there are simple, bland looking $100k amps out there, but I'd venture a guess they'd be a hard sell, regardless of how they sound...


cheers,
Alex

 

[DaveC]

It seems like this subject is a "can of worms" and results in strong feelings. I don't understand why? ...In a high end forum why is it so troublesome to discuss high end products, their prices, what makes them so expensive and what drives the market?

I think there are many great advantages to pushing the boundaries of anything, and I'm happy that some can afford to pay for this kind of work. I also think it's healthy to question the value of anything and critique them for what they are. It's normal for people to disagree on exactly what adds value for them, like fancy casework, massive slabs of aluminum, speakers that stand 7 ft tall, etc... it's just not a big deal imo. This can be discussed wrt autos, kitchen appliances, breeds of dogs, etc. without a 2nd thought but not high end audio gear?

It seems like some think it's entirely inappropriate to question these things and it shouldn't be done, but maybe I'm just not getting the point...

 

[Woofer and Tweet]

There's always a level beyond everything. I remember when Levinson brought out his original preamp in the 70's, and the price was insane. Fast forward until today and it would seem like the deal of the century.

 

[DaveC]

You didn't write anything that wasn't known before, and didn't contradict anything I've said myself.
You have no appreciation for that particular look and/or that particular level of attention to detail in the case finish. But I can assure you that, if you're going to spent that much money on an amp, whether it's $50k, $60k, whatever, at that level, you gotta have top notch finish, regardless. Call it icing on the cake, but it's gotta look the part. And, as I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going for a better looking device, even if means it'll end up costing a little bit more.
Maybe there are simple, bland looking $100k amps out there, but I'd venture a guess they'd be a hard sell, regardless of how they sound...


cheers,
Alex

I agree, Ferrari wouldn't be the same if they didn't put a lot of effort into design. If people are going to live with the gear in their living space, as opposed to an equipment closet, then design is exceptionally important to many people. When I design things aesthetics is very important to me as part of the overall picture and I'd be less happy with my own gear if I just put it in a plain metal box. OTOH, if it's for the closet and an appliance-type piece of gear like a class-D woofer amp, a plain metal box is fine for me.

I also think when you get to a certain level of product the appeal is narrowed regardless of what it is... For example designer clothing has more niche appeal vs biz casual attire, it has more effort put into it's overall design and costs a lot more. Same with cars, expensive cars are most often fairly specialized vehicles in terms of performance or looks and they have a narrow appeal vs a typical midsized sedan or SUV. I think with audio this is the case, a particular high end piece of gear is going to have a more narrow appeal vs a your typical mainstream choices. So I think we tend to be more critical if it doesn't fit our ideals, but I also think that a large majority of the market for this kind of product won't, it's just the nature of the product. So we also shouldn't take criticism too seriously either. It is true to get a particular piece of gear you like you may have to also buy the industrial-design work of art it happens to be housed in, but that's life I guess...

 

[Elliot G.]

I certainly don't want to spend a lot of my money on something that is supposed to be exceptional and yet its finished/built/packaged/serviced like a POS. The High End experience is a total one IMHO not a partial one. It needs to do more than sound good for me it needs to check all the boxes if its going to be painful to purchase. Would anyone really buy a Mercedes ,Steinway or a Patek that was finished like crap?

 

[microstrip]

(...) His personal story shared about how he made the Momentums sound good had nothing to do with the case, either. (...)

Sorry it does. I was there when we referred to it. He also mentioned it partially in a Positive Feedback interview.