For those with the cojones...and chequebook to match!

[JackD201]

Is this is the "Anybody that spent more than I did is an idiot" thread?

 

[Al M.]

Is this is the "Anybody that spent more than I did is an idiot" thread?

No, it's the "anyone who spent less money than me is a pauper with no cojones" thread. Just kidding.

 

[cjfrbw]

Cojones do have tendency to generate less than sensible choices.

 

[Al M.]

Cojones do have tendency to generate less than sensible choices.

Hehe.

 

[JackD201]

No, it's the "anyone who spent less money than me is a pauper with no cojones" thread. Just kidding.

Hahahahahahaha! Oh yes that happens too. I think that is another thread though LOL

 

[NorthStar]

Is this is the "Anybody that spent more than I did is an idiot" thread?

Jack, what would have crossed your mind to even have that thought?

For me people like MikeL, Christian, Tango, Steve, etc., etc., etc., it takes high courage and high dedication and high music passion to pursue the closest to what's best in high end audio.
We have the designers, highly talented and extremely dedicated in their best audio products and we have the highly motivated customers who are the ones courageous enough to fully appreciate their talent.
Speaker designers like Magico, amplifier designers like D'Agostino, MSB, Aries Cerat, TechDAS, Magnum Dynalab, Mytek, Lumin, etc., etc., etc., they fulfill the dreams of the most courageous audiophiles on the globe.

To me that is what it's all about what's best...in hi-fi stereo sound as in anything and everything else in life; bravura, discipline, high caliber. All the rest is just cheap whiskey.

 

[JackD201]

Hahahaha only that many of those who complain most vehemently have gear that is NOT cheap Bob. Not by a long shot.

 

[NorthStar]

You've just said it.

 

[Bar81]

Just to point that I have answered several times to that question in this forum - even debated it with FrantzM long ago. The mechanical properties of the casework also define the sound quality of an amplifier. It is why designers use solid billets and tuned boxes. And Dan Agostino was not an exception - the form factor referred mainly to size, but the casework was optimized for the influence of the casework, particularly the use of copper in microsonics - I listened to him addressing this aspect and a lot more at the Momentum presentation at our distributor some years ago.

Thank goodness Dan decided on that form for the Momentum as it is the only uber amp that I found that respects the fact that not everyone has tons of space. Otherwise I wouldn't have the pleasure of owning one. Plus my wife loved the sound and look so he also made my life easy on that one (once you put aside my choking on the pricetag).

Also agree with the poster above - I won't buy ugly/poorly finished gear. If I'm spending the kind of money I'm spending, the designer needs to have a product that satisfies in all areas.

 

[KeithR]

there aren't many "bland boxes" in the high end anymore and you don't have to spend $65k to get a nice one.

 

[Al M.]

Thank goodness Dan decided on that form for the Momentum as it is the only uber amp that I found that respects the fact that not everyone has tons of space. Otherwise I wouldn't have the pleasure of owning one. Plus my wife loved the sound and look so he also made my life easy on that one (once you put aside my choking on the pricetag).

Also agree with the poster above - I won't buy ugly/poorly finished gear. If I'm spending the kind of money I'm spending, the designer needs to have a product that satisfies in all areas.

The problem with this reasoning is that for cars you can choose the design, for high end gear you cannot. You buy, at least a sports car, in part precisely because of its design, not just because of its performance. Yet in the high end at least I (and I think most other audiophiles too) buy my gear because of a specific sound, not because of the design.

So I'd rather that the manufacturer not try too hard to come up with something expensive in that area that I may not like that much anyway.

For example, I kinda like the design of my Octave amp, but I would be lying if I'd say I really love it:

http://www.octave.de/en/htdocs/verstaerker/re320.php

I know dozens of tube amps that to my eyes look sexier. I chose the Octave amp strictly for its sound, and look forward to its mating with an Octave HP700 preamp which will let it shine even more. Yet if an amp would be like a sports car, I would never have chosen this particular one.

I know tons of high end gear where I don't particularly love the design, even in instances where they tried really hard to come up with something "nice". So perhaps manufacturers shouldn't try to hard and just stick to something simple and not too "fancy".

I have no problem with utilitarian designs. In fact, there is one that I really love: Spectral amps. They haven't changed much their chassis design in 30 years either, and why would they?

 

[Bar81]

The problem with this reasoning is that for cars you can choose the design, for high end gear you cannot. You buy, at least a sports car, in part precisely because of its design, not just because of its performance. Yet in the high end at least I (and I think most other audiophiles too) buy my gear because of a specific sound, not because of the design. So I'd rather that the manufacturer not try too hard to come up with something expensive in that area that I may not like that much anyway.

For example, I kinda like the design of my Octave amp, but I would be lying if I'd say I really love it:

http://www.octave.de/en/htdocs/verstaerker/re320.php

I know dozens of tube amps that to my eyes look sexier. I chose the Octave amp strictly for its sound, and look forward to its mating with an Octave HP700 preamp which will let it shine even more. Yet if am amp would be like a sports car, I would never have chosen this particular one.

I have no problem with utilitarian designs. In fact, there is one that I really love: Spectral amps. They haven't changed much their chassis design in 30 years either, ands why would they?

The reality is that we all have different requirements. Irrespective of sound I would never buy something that is aesthetically displeasing to me, like the aforementioned Spectral gear. While you want the designer to spend less time on the design, I demand that a designer have an aesthetically pleasing design before I will consider an item. Neither is right or wrong but to dismiss design as irrelevant doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Your dichotomy between cars and audio gear is an arbitrary one - why does a car's design matter and not the design of a piece of audio gear. Just like for audio, form is not exclusively derived from function for cars. Car makers like Porsche retain a certain look for their cars not necessarily because they can't design the car better but rather because the aesthetics sell the cars and the design is excellent and will do what's needed. Design a Porsche to look like a Lamborghini and see how many customers Porsche would lose.

 

[Steve Williams]

well if any amp constantly receives the butt ugliest award each year it is mine and it cost a small fortune but for me they are lifers and I will never sell them.

Lamm could care less about the look of his design which really hasn't changed in well over 20 years.

For me I could care less what an expensive piece of equipment looks like. Rather I only care how it sounds. Besides my listening sessions are always with lights off. Problem solved

 

[DaveC]

I consider the case design as contributing to the whole, and considering I am into tube amplification I do believe the design and materials play a significant role in how the amp will sound.

This is why my last one uses about 10 lbs of wood and 10 lbs of copper. The downside of any design is it will speak to some and not others. I guess that's life...

 

[Al M.]

Car makers like Porsche retain a certain look for their cars not necessarily because they can't design the car better but rather because the aesthetics sell the cars and the design is excellent and will do what's needed. Design a Porsche to look like a Lamborghini and see how many customers Porsche would lose.

Which was precisely my point. The choice of the car design by the customer is exactly a selling point, and a customer's choice, the design of audio gear is not. I find the design of MSB DACs borderline unpleasant and the one of Magico S series speakers ugly, for example. If I'd buy an MSB DAC it would be despite its design, not because it tilts the scale in its favor. On the other hand, I would never buy a sports car despite its design and only based on its performance. Never.

 

[Al M.]

For me I could care less what an expensive piece of equipment looks like. Rather I only care how it sounds. Besides my listening sessions are always with lights off. Problem solved

Exactly, so why a fancy design?

 

[Bar81]

Which was precisely my point. The choice of the car design by the customer is exactly a selling point, the design of audio gear is not. I find the design of MSB DACs borderline unpleasant and the one of Magico S series speakers ugly, for example. If I'd buy an MSB DAC it would be despite its design, not because it tilts the scale in its favor. On the other hand, I would never buy a sports car despite its design, only based on its performance.

Your point was that you decided that looks don't sell audio gear but they sell cars? You've lost me...

 

[Elliot G.]

well if any amp constantly receives the butt ugliest award each year it is mine and it cost a small fortune but for me they are lifers and I will never sell them.

Lamm could care less about the look of his design which really hasn't changed in well over 20 years.

For me I could care less what an expensive piece of equipment looks like. Rather I only care how it sounds. Besides my listening sessions are always with lights off. Problem solved

the looks may not be of significance to many but the build quality is. No one wants to buy a 5 or 6 figure piece of gear that looks like it is made like crap! For those who don't think its important just look at products like McIntosh or Dagostino to name only a few. No one can convince me that the looks have no part in the buying decision for many. Even for those who don't care the build quality has to be there to justify the price IMHO

 

[Steve Williams]

the looks may not be of significance to many but the build quality is. No one wants to buy a 5 or 6 figure piece of gear that looks like it is made like crap! For those who don't think its important just look at products like McIntosh or Dagostino to name only a few. No one can convince me that the looks have no part in the buying decision for many. Even for those who don't care the build quality has to be there to justify the price IMHO

I totally agree about build quality. Mine are built like a Sherman tank. They’re just ugly

 

[Al M.]

the looks may not be of significance to many but the build quality is. No one wants to buy a 5 or 6 figure piece of gear that looks like it is made like crap! For those who don't think its important just look at products like McIntosh or Dagostino to name only a few. No one can convince me that the looks have no part in the buying decision for many. Even for those who don't care the build quality has to be there to justify the price IMHO

I think your distinction between build quality and looks is a good and important one. I may only at best "like" the look of my amp, but I love its build quality!

But again, build quality can also be found in a utilitarian design, it doesn't need to be a "fancy" one which will only appeal to some and not to others.