For you horn guys: What kind of compression driver are you using for high frequencies? Why that choice (if you know...)

[Audiophile Bill]

And here is the data - below you will see dual 515 Altec in 817 on the top plot (the bottom plot is a bigger Altec cabinet).

You will see that your lose around 6dB from 100hz to 150hz compared to the 200-500hz region that it will extend to. It then goes off a cliff at 65hz. Please take note of x axis scaling - you lost 10dB from 60hz to 50hz.

So depending how full range you want to make your project (do you want 20, 30, or 40hz), you’ll need another channel below this or accept it as is or go for the 210A or 211 enclosures but they need a gigantic room.

Anyway - food for thoughts...

 

[christoph]

Tao, your questions come from reading too many forum post, and not one reference design you want to build to. A few points:

1. When you mull over Radian or BMS, or Lyra or VDH or Koetsu, or any A or B, when you are doing blind, you end up doing both. So these questions don't help unless you know one you want to get to. As you go deeper into the process, you will want to do more, including some vintage, some unobtanium, and some bargains that come up that you were not looking for previously. Radian is as good a driver as any I have heard, question always is if people like something different. Some like paper opposed to Be, for example, some like both. So you can choose different types of drivers (either you get Lyra Etna, Atlas, Etna SL, Atlas SL, or you get Lyra, Koetsu, Opus, etc).
2. If you want to use a 1.4 inch driver on a 2 inch iwata (or any other horn), you either need an adapter, or you can get the Radian 950 which is same as 951 with a 2 inch
3. For your big room, you first need in place a big design. Neither PAP nor Harbeth cut it, sorry. So you need to start afresh.
4. Regarding 2 way or multi-way and your point on coherence, I have heard single driver up to 5-ways. The most coherent are dual FLHs - the design just gets things right - the timing, integration (no hybrid stuff), and they sound point source too as long as you have like 4m from them. The bigger the room, the greater the FLH advantage. So it is just not about how many ways, it is the design too. You can also do BLH, Anima, Avaton, SLOB, or whatever, but you need to know what design you want to get to.
5. You can start 2-way, then add tweeter, then add subs. I don't know anyone, Cessaro included, who have been able to build a perfect 5-way - it does get too complex and that causes some lack of coherence as well as lack of ease in driving it.
6. 1 inch or 1.4/2 inch dilemma that you mentioned is more of small speaker/big speaker. With a 1 inch you will end up with a compromised bass like Onken.

@bonzo75
How about the Vulva from Silvercore.
You obviously liked that one very much, right?
Or take the Universums Mid and Treble and add something different for the upper bass?
That should be both possible to recreate or am I being too naive here?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

One final comment - you could solve this issue (to some degree) with parametric EQ or DSP if you don’t want another horn channel.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Graham,

Personally I wouldn’t go down the complex multi-way route as the first major build because it will be a very tough project and integrating all those horn channels will be very difficult indeed and also costly if it doesn’t work out (horns, drivers and plethora of crossover parts).

In terms of the above posts - I just wanted to clear something up. When people talk about dual woofer flh - there is the purist route (such as Leif’s) or the hybrid cabinet like the Altec 817, 211 etc. The latter produce reflex bass below their horn cut off, which is in reality around 80hz+ for say a 817. Below that, you effectively have normal reflex bass so are a hybrid solution. That is helpful if you want to simplify because then a 2 or 3 way is possible but also with less horns required - you effectively got 35-40hz to 500hz covered in that one cabinet.

Definitely not keen to end up with an embarrassing cabinet of very unused and unbespoken parts... my mate with his Animas cracks up when he just looks at my current unused bits here lol.

Bill thinking perhaps if I break this into parts and just stay on track to build the folded OB sub first that I can trial that with any of the speakers already here.

I can then trial in a mid horn CD combination just utilising the OB pap neo woofers initially.

The radians and one set of horns are something I can trial without too much risk maybe. Would definitely make more sense than just going for broke (unfortunate turn of phrase ) right at the start.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Definitely not keen to end up with an embarrassing cabinet of very unused and unbespoken parts... my mate with his Animas cracks up when he just looks at my current unused bits here lol.

Bill thinking perhaps if I break this into parts and just stay on track to build the folded OB sub first that I can trial that with any of the speakers already here.

I can then trial in a mid horn CD combination just utilising the pap woofers initially.

The radians and one set of horns are something I can trial without too much risk maybe. Would definitely make more sense than just going for broke (unfortunate turn of phrase ) right at the start.

Agreed with that approach to start. The folded open baffle sub can always be used as a sub bass channel in an alternative system if you go that way.

 

[bonzo75]

@bonzo75
How about the Vulva from Silvercore.
You obviously liked that one very much, right?

Yes it is another dual woofer FLH with 18 inch woofers. However cannot recreate that as he makes his own driver (modding diaphragms) and won't really give out his crossover

 

[christoph]

The TD 4003 videos will be of Leif's set up. If I wean myself off Netflix/prime I will finish the article and post it.

So pretty please with sugar on top, pull the frigging finger out... (freely adapted from Pulp Fiction)

 

[christoph]

A 4 or 5 way horn speaker is a really big undertaking just keep that in mind. Not just the drivers but also the crossover, the horns and the structure that holds it altogether are all important. Everything has to work really well together, you need to plan a lot, make small experiments and you will definetly need measurement equipment both electric and acoustic. Do not just go for trial and error, there are way too many variables to be able to make a complex design such as this without measurements. Then you also need a room so that you can be at least sitting as far as where the driver integration occurs. The multiway horns start sounding coherent from that point on, if you are closer it is not physically possible to have coherency because of the distance between acoustic centers. These distances etc are all have to be taken into account, like maybe a jmlc horn with 200hz cutoff is better suited for your planned bandwidth, however having also the midbass horn, and tweeter, upper mids in between, the jmlc would be too high tand wont give the response accordingly to plan...

A small and rough guide that you can work on may go like this;

20hz - 80hz - A bass solution you prefer, I very much prefer the OB servo bass array
80hz - 600hz - A dual FLH (rectangular mouth so as to gain space without loosing much else)
600hz - 5khz - JMLC cf 350hz - 2" cd
5khz - 10-12khz - JMLC cf 1400hz - 1"cd
10-12khz+ - Fostex t500amk2 or TAD ea703 or similar

This would be just the horns and drivers. Now, the crossover design is no simple matter and I would tell you to work with professionals and if you need I can give you some contacts for people who design multiway horn crossovers for a long time.

Then comes the structure, your drivers should be able to move and get adjusted along vertically and for depth. You will want to align them.

I can keep on going but I just want to remind you again that this is a very rewarding but a very big undertaking. I love my multiway installation but I never thought of it as a product like cessaro does, it is quite complicated. This was the reason for my new speaker design not being a 5 way horn. A 5 way is not home, wife and user friendly

Absolutely awesome posting, thanks

 

[christoph]

No horn is wife friendly. My gf says we came up with the term WAF just to pretend we are showing some consideration for our ladies to lessen our guilt

Objection!

My wife insisted I finally buy those Universums because she likes (also) the look of them a lot

 

[bonzo75]

Objection!

My wife insisted I finally buy those Universums because she likes (also) the look of them a lot

Hey the scintilla was her favorite speaker too, so I would say she is the audiophile in the house, and she chooses what might seem good to her husband.

 

[bonzo75]

Definitely not keen to end up with an embarrassing cabinet of very unused and unbespoken parts... my mate with his Animas cracks up when he just looks at my current unused bits here lol.

Bill thinking perhaps if I break this into parts and just stay on track to build the folded OB sub first that I can trial that with any of the speakers already here.

I can then trial in a mid horn CD combination just utilising the OB pap neo woofers initially.

The radians and one set of horns are something I can trial without too much risk maybe. Would definitely make more sense than just going for broke (unfortunate turn of phrase ) right at the start.

Not sure what this will achieve except scratch an itch that you rolled a driver (in this case Radian) into your horn, and possibly get you started on tweaking cross over

 

[the sound of Tao]

On the other hand my wife loves our system and especially the horns. Not because they are big and bold but because they sound really good and has been built by me She is proud and talks about it too!

That is really nice Kodomo. With your design background I’m sure for you also it makes a giant difference if your family also then gets your approach... family aren’t always the best clients

 

[the sound of Tao]

Not sure what this will achieve except scratch an itch that you rolled a driver (in this case Radian) into your horn, and possibly get you started on tweaking cross over

Just breaking it into small steps Ked, the journey of a thousand miles etc etc lol... I am but a mere design mortal... but I love process as much as outcome.

 

[christoph]

Yes it is another dual woofer FLH with 18 inch woofers. However cannot recreate that as he makes his own driver (modding diaphragms) and won't really give out his crossover

Bummer
But understandable

 

[bonzo75]

Just breaking it into small steps Ked, the journey of a thousand miles etc etc lol... I am but a mere design mortal... but I love process as much as outcome.

That's fine. The dangers here are then thinking you have done the Radian and moving on especially if you don't get it to sound good

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Just breaking it into small steps Ked, the journey of a thousand miles etc etc lol... I am but a mere design mortal... but I love process as much as outcome.

If you manage to integrate the open baffle subwoofer solution into your main system and change the CD - that will be a very good start indeed. Integration of low bass isn’t that easy so you’ll have to spend quite a while doing that. Changing the CD might require crossover tweaking too so that is also very good experience.

 

[the sound of Tao]

That's fine. The dangers here are then thinking you have done the Radian and moving on especially if you don't get it to sound good

Ked, I am just trying... ask my loved ones lol. I have three setups that sound great, I am a fortunate soul... my espresso setup is also most excellent . There is no real harm in trying. I have little to lose as I’m already happy with what I have. You do need to get a system under way though. You love music and deserve to have it whenever you need. I do and enjoy every day because of it as well as all the other freedoms and joys life hold. Design and construct is a perilous thing but potentially it’s a joy.

 

[bonzo75]

No I don't. I just need to scratch itch of listening to all drivers with all horns and all TTs with all carts and all low watt SETs with all possible output transformers, interstages, driver and output tubes, etc. There is no reason to own or have anything to listen to, it's a waste of time. You listen and move on.

 

[pjwd]

Just breaking it into small steps Ked, the journey of a thousand miles etc etc lol... I am but a mere design mortal... but I love process as much as outcome.

Hi tao
Presume you know about these (relatilvly ) locals https://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_gallery.html
I would agree with starting out with minidsp and a few borrowed amps when figuring out crossovers
A lot of learning can happen without much grief
Phil

 

[bonzo75]

Hi tao
Presume you know about these (relatilvly ) locals https://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_gallery.html
I would agree with starting out with minidsp and a few borrowed amps when figuring out crossovers
A lot of learning can happen without much grief
Phil

Azura have the largest JMLC with a Fc of 160 Hz