For you horn guys: What kind of compression driver are you using for high frequencies? Why that choice (if you know...)

[the sound of Tao]

No I don't. I just need to scratch itch of listening to all drivers with all horns and all TTs with all carts and all low watt SETs with all possible output transformers, interstages, driver and output tubes, etc. There is no reason to own or have anything to listen to, it's a waste of time. You listen and move on.

Ked people aren’t going to let you in to scratch anything these days unless you screen Covid negative first ... but as always this is our own journey as ever so all good.

Down in here in the great southern land (like most of the planet) we are also struggling to get live music. On a lateral note I saw an amazing documentary last night on twin bothers who are doctors in London one a virus specialist and the other working in intensive care who then contracted Covid... was probably the most compelling documentary I’ve seen on the struggle with the virus so far, it struck me how fragile and uncertain life is and the importance of just the simple joys... also it had beautiful images of your city. When I visited music was integral to just being in London. Classical and jazz. Live music and travel, in the sum of loss these are also some of the missing bits in this.

 

[kodomo]

By the way, I have not tried this but according to what I hear from people who have tried the 4003 with appropriate horns, you can have one less channel in the proposal guide I put on earlier. I update it accordingly in this message. This is still a maybe for me as I have not listened and measured it myself. I have tried not having the upper mid, it still measured (in frequency response) very well but having that channel really opened up. 2" drivers are beaming over 5-6khz and I have better off axis response with the upper mid horns added through out that band, it matches the rest of the spectrum. Still, it is hard to implement but was worth doing for me. If then, I had the chance to try 4003 I would have loved to listen to and measure for the difference.

20hz - 80hz - A bass solution you prefer, I very much prefer the OB servo bass array
80hz - 600hz - A dual FLH (rectangular mouth so as to gain space without loosing much else)
600hz - 10khz - JMLC cf 350hz - TAD 4003
10khz+ - Fostex t500amk2 or TAD et703 or similar

I would not recommend dual 18" for flh as they won't be sounding good at 600hz and are not built for that. Dual 12" or 15" would be better suited for tone and would still be efficient enough at 80hz with the right horn. I also do not recommend having ports on the flh and introducing the reflex sound. OB bass or horn bass however costly both in price and estate sounds quite a bit better if implemented correctly.

 

[bonzo75]

By the way, I have not tried this but according to what I hear from people who have tried the 4003 with appropriate horns, you can have one less channel in the proposal guide I put on earlier. I update it accordingly in this message. This is still a maybe for me as I have not listened and measured it myself. I have tried not having the upper mid, it still measured (in frequency response) very well but having that channel really opened up. 2" drivers are beaming over 5-6khz and I have better off axis response with the upper mid horns added through out that band, it matches the rest of the spectrum. Still, it is hard to implement but was worth it for me. If then, I had the chance to try 4003 I would have loved to listen to and measure for the difference.

20hz - 80hz - A bass solution you prefer, I very much prefer the OB servo bass array
80hz - 600hz - A dual FLH (rectangular mouth so as to gain space without loosing much else)
600hz - 10khz - JMLC cf 350hz - TAD 4003
10khz+ - Fostex t500amk2 or TAD et703 or similar

I would not recommend dual 18" for flh as they won't be sounding good at 600hz and are not built for that. Dual 12" or 15" would be better suited for tone and would still be efficient enough at 80hz with the right horn. I also do not recommend having ports on the flh and introducing the reflex sound. OB bass or horn bass however costly both in price and estate sounds quite a bit better if implemented correctly.

The dual 18 referred to above was not for a slightly different design, still a dual FLH, but crossing at 200 hz and it was a replica of the GIP/Silbatone replica which was a replica of the WE Mirrophonic, which a 4-woofer FLH, and the first such along with RCA's Shearer. The Mirrophonic played at Munich in 2016 or 17.

The 4-way I have in mind (Leif's) is similar to what you have described above but a 1-inch CD instead of ET 703, though one can do either and check preference

 

[morricab]

I understand exactly where you are right now as it was where I was a couple of years ago.

First, I decided to keep my reference (mostly because I love how they sound) my Odeon LA Boheme speakers + Aries Cerat and have a second system that does the business of keeping me a hobbyist.

The high sensitity speaker world is interesting because there are horn and non-horn solutions (at least up to about 100db/watt). Just to break down a few archetypes that you could choose from:

Full range driver in a backloaded horn: Pnoe is probably the ultimate expression of this concept. The strength is the coherence from the mid-bass up but the weakness is usually the bass and it is only as good as the driver you can afford (and the sky seems to be the limit). To really get excellent sound this is very expensive way to go.

Fullrange driver in a TQWT cabinet: Similar to a backloaded horn but better bass for a given cabinet size. Cube Audio and Supravox use this to good effect. Modest size but good bass and high sensitivity allows moderate power.

Augmented Full range driver (or wideband) in backloaded horn or TQWT: Use of a widebander with tweeter only coming in the top octaves. Bass is still and issue but less so with a modest sized TQWT. A commercial example of this was my Odeon, old Dyanvox (now Dynamikks) and Cessaro Wagner (which uses the same Supravox I am using). Great for rooms up to about 30sqm.

Fullrange driver in front horn with woofer system: This is what Bill has gone with and you see this also with Oris horns and the speaker from Totaldac. The woofer system can be either a large woofer in a vented box, a dipole array, sealed servo system, etc. If bass is active, then the fullrange in the front horn can be very high sensitivity, or if passive then multiple woofers can also give a good sensitivity.

Multi-way TQWT: This is what I have chosen to go with as it balances size, sensitivity, bass performance and relative ease of construction. My Odeons are a two-way expression of this as are my experimental speakers (for now). In DTQWT they become a three-way with more bass power. With this you go with a high sensitivty non-horn mid/bass (I have chosen the Supravox 215-2000 you could probably make the mid a horn as well) and a horn that goes as low as 500-600 hz, which is still a managable size. If you go larger then you need a tweeter as well to make a 4-way. What I have found is that you don't get cabinet sound from such a design and at around 100db/watt it is plenty sensitive to use with single digit amps. The best known commercial example is the Horning Hybrid Eufrodite, which is a DTQWT but without horn highs (its main weakness I think). I have found that even in two-way configuration it handles big music quite well as the pro drivers in the horn are not really working that hard (they are designed for 125db all day long). I find the bass preferrable to the usual big vented box although if you have the space a dipole bass (like Bill's design...I think) works great too.

Multi-way backloaded horn: A prime example of this is Aries Cerat Symphonia, where the backloaded horn is only doing the bass to lower mids and front loaded horns take over after that. The Living Voice Vox Olympian would also fit here. Can be the ultimate speakers, diffcult to build and tune...I would not tackle this unless you really know what you are doing...and maybe not even then...at least not more than 4-way. Most companies cannot build a good two-way...the problem is exponential. Big rooms needed

Multi-way horn and separate active or passive woofer system. Avantgarde and Cessaro are big players here. IMO, this is very difficult to achieve coherence and balance. Maybe Kodomo has done so but this requires serious dedication like the category above. Big rooms needed. Horns Universum kind of fits here too and is a relatively simple three-way (I would not go more than this if you truly want coherence). Avantgarde Duo Mezzo is an interesting bridge.

Multi-way front loaded horn: Klipschorns, JBL Hartsfields and Paragon fit into this category. Also a difficult proposition and large but can sound as phenomenal as the Multi-way backloaded horn (Hartfields are still one of the best speakers if a tweeter is added).

Multi-way (2 or more) with FLH mid/high (compression driver or can be a cone) and large woofer (or woofers) in a vented or vented+FLH box. Examples abound from JBL, Altec and other studio monitor and theater speaker companies. Acapella and Odeon would also fall into this category. This is Ked's choice for the moment (at least the large format Altec style solution) and is relatively straightforward to implement. Get a mid/high horn that can go up to close to 20Khz (there are several good choices on the market now as you know) and there are a ton of pro woofers that also sound very good in the mids and have endless power handling. Something from Acoustic Elegance would be my first choice for woofers in the category but probably 2 in parallel to get the SPL up a bit closer to 100db. Classic woofers would also work well if you can find them in good condition (or Great PLains Audio). There are a ton of DIY projects like this on the web as well. If you have the real estate then FLH on the woofer box to give a bit of horn gain on the lower mids/upper bass.

Coaxial driver with woofer augmentation. Live Act Audio, Urei 813 (classic studio monitor based on the Altec 604), Dynamikks. Very good coherence and relatively easy to implement. Large coax + large woofer will give high sensitivity and work great in large rooms. Easily driven by 20+ watt SET. Woofer alignment can be sealed, vented or TQWT and all work well if done right.

I know of very few active analog crossovers good enough (Accuphase F25 is one of them or maybe some tube ones...like Marchand) for such revealing systems. Digital crossovers in hardware (or software) work well but do not buy one with built-in DACs unless it is just for design. Digital in/Digital out seems to be totally transparent (perhaps need some jitter reduction...I use Monarchy Audio DIP on my system) but then you need two good/great DACs and multi-channel amplification (true for all active setups). Passive is, well, a pain to get right.

If you want a big music system then it will have to be at least 2-way and probably 3-way with a large format CD and a small tweeter and one or more large woofers. The system I will ultimately settle on will be two and a half way where the mid also contributes to the bass in a DTQWT with two 10-12 inch woofers on the backside, my Supravox mid and then a horn covering from 1khz and up (or I might try an even larger horn and driver and go from 500hz or so and then add supertweeter...right now I am finding the 1Kz-20Khz with CD a good solution). the final speaker will stand about 1.4 meters but not be too wide...so still room acceptable for WAF that is decent. IMO, this kind of design is hard to beat in a <30 sqm room.

 

[morricab]

The dual 18 referred to above was not for a slightly different design, still a dual FLH, but crossing at 200 hz and it was a replica of the GIP/Silbatone replica which was a replica of the WE Mirrophonic, which a 4-woofer FLH, and the first such along with RCA's Shearer. The Mirrophonic played at Munich in 2016 or 17.

The 4-way I have in mind (Leif's) is similar to what you have described above but a 1-inch CD instead of ET 703, though one can do either and check preference

Although I typically love the old WE systems when the Korean guy brings them to Munich, whenever they have played the GIP systems I have not been so impressed with the sound.

 

[bonzo75]

Although I typically love the old WE systems when the Korean guy brings them to Munich, whenever they have played the GIP systems I have not been so impressed with the sound.

Actually Silvercore has sold GIP and he does have reservations about the sound so had made his own to address those. But it did have that W bin dual woofer midbass with two 18s. When you have that 130 cm wide, 1 m deep and 5 feet tall W bin cabinet that gets serious

 

[kodomo]

Oh

The dual 18 referred to above was not for a slightly different design, still a dual FLH, but crossing at 200 hz and it was a replica of the GIP/Silbatone replica which was a replica of the WE Mirrophonic, which a 4-woofer FLH, and the first such along with RCA's Shearer. The Mirrophonic played at Munich in 2016 or 17.

The 4-way I have in mind (Leif's) is similar to what you have described above but a 1-inch CD instead of ET 703, though one can do either and check preference

Ok, that makes sense. I have not seen that specific example. If working under horns that play down to 150-200hz, it would be suitable.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I understand exactly where you are right now as it was where I was a couple of years ago.

First, I decided to keep my reference (mostly because I love how they sound) my Odeon LA Boheme speakers + Aries Cerat and have a second system that does the business of keeping me a hobbyist.

The high sensitity speaker world is interesting because there are horn and non-horn solutions (at least up to about 100db/watt). Just to break down a few archetypes that you could choose from:

Full range driver in a backloaded horn: Pnoe is probably the ultimate expression of this concept. The strength is the coherence from the mid-bass up but the weakness is usually the bass and it is only as good as the driver you can afford (and the sky seems to be the limit). To really get excellent sound this is very expensive way to go.

Fullrange driver in a TQWT cabinet: Similar to a backloaded horn but better bass for a given cabinet size. Cube Audio and Supravox use this to good effect. Modest size but good bass and high sensitivity allows moderate power.

Augmented Full range driver (or wideband) in backloaded horn or TQWT: Use of a widebander with tweeter only coming in the top octaves. Bass is still and issue but less so with a modest sized TQWT. A commercial example of this was my Odeon, old Dyanvox (now Dynamikks) and Cessaro Wagner (which uses the same Supravox I am using). Great for rooms up to about 30sqm.

Fullrange driver in front horn with woofer system: This is what Bill has gone with and you see this also with Oris horns and the speaker from Totaldac. The woofer system can be either a large woofer in a vented box, a dipole array, sealed servo system, etc. If bass is active, then the fullrange in the front horn can be very high sensitivity, or if passive then multiple woofers can also give a good sensitivity.

Multi-way TQWT: This is what I have chosen to go with as it balances size, sensitivity, bass performance and relative ease of construction. My Odeons are a two-way expression of this as are my experimental speakers (for now). In DTQWT they become a three-way with more bass power. With this you go with a high sensitivty non-horn mid/bass (I have chosen the Supravox 215-2000 you could probably make the mid a horn as well) and a horn that goes as low as 500-600 hz, which is still a managable size. If you go larger then you need a tweeter as well to make a 4-way. What I have found is that you don't get cabinet sound from such a design and at around 100db/watt it is plenty sensitive to use with single digit amps. The best known commercial example is the Horning Hybrid Eufrodite, which is a DTQWT but without horn highs (its main weakness I think). I have found that even in two-way configuration it handles big music quite well as the pro drivers in the horn are not really working that hard (they are designed for 125db all day long). I find the bass preferrable to the usual big vented box although if you have the space a dipole bass (like Bill's design...I think) works great too.

Multi-way backloaded horn: A prime example of this is Aries Cerat Symphonia, where the backloaded horn is only doing the bass to lower mids and front loaded horns take over after that. The Living Voice Vox Olympian would also fit here. Can be the ultimate speakers, diffcult to build and tune...I would not tackle this unless you really know what you are doing...and maybe not even then...at least not more than 4-way. Most companies cannot build a good two-way...the problem is exponential. Big rooms needed

Multi-way horn and separate active or passive woofer system. Avantgarde and Cessaro are big players here. IMO, this is very difficult to achieve coherence and balance. Maybe Kodomo has done so but this requires serious dedication like the category above. Big rooms needed. Horns Universum kind of fits here too and is a relatively simple three-way (I would not go more than this if you truly want coherence). Avantgarde Duo Mezzo is an interesting bridge.

Multi-way front loaded horn: Klipschorns, JBL Hartsfields and Paragon fit into this category. Also a difficult proposition and large but can sound as phenomenal as the Multi-way backloaded horn (Hartfields are still one of the best speakers if a tweeter is added).

Multi-way (2 or more) with FLH mid/high (compression driver or can be a cone) and large woofer (or woofers) in a vented or vented+FLH box. Examples abound from JBL, Altec and other studio monitor and theater speaker companies. Acapella and Odeon would also fall into this category. This is Ked's choice for the moment (at least the large format Altec style solution) and is relatively straightforward to implement. Get a mid/high horn that can go up to close to 20Khz (there are several good choices on the market now as you know) and there are a ton of pro woofers that also sound very good in the mids and have endless power handling. Something from Acoustic Elegance would be my first choice for woofers in the category but probably 2 in parallel to get the SPL up a bit closer to 100db. Classic woofers would also work well if you can find them in good condition (or Great PLains Audio). There are a ton of DIY projects like this on the web as well. If you have the real estate then FLH on the woofer box to give a bit of horn gain on the lower mids/upper bass.

Coaxial driver with woofer augmentation. Live Act Audio, Urei 813 (classic studio monitor based on the Altec 604), Dynamikks. Very good coherence and relatively easy to implement. Large coax + large woofer will give high sensitivity and work great in large rooms. Easily driven by 20+ watt SET. Woofer alignment can be sealed, vented or TQWT and all work well if done right.

I know of very few active analog crossovers good enough (Accuphase F25 is one of them or maybe some tube ones...like Marchand) for such revealing systems. Digital crossovers in hardware (or software) work well but do not buy one with built-in DACs unless it is just for design. Digital in/Digital out seems to be totally transparent (perhaps need some jitter reduction...I use Monarchy Audio DIP on my system) but then you need two good/great DACs and multi-channel amplification (true for all active setups). Passive is, well, a pain to get right.

If you want a big music system then it will have to be at least 2-way and probably 3-way with a large format CD and a small tweeter and one or more large woofers. The system I will ultimately settle on will be two and a half way where the mid also contributes to the bass in a DTQWT with two 10-12 inch woofers on the backside, my Supravox mid and then a horn covering from 1khz and up (or I might try an even larger horn and driver and go from 500hz or so and then add supertweeter...right now I am finding the 1Kz-20Khz with CD a good solution). the final speaker will stand about 1.4 meters but not be too wide...so still room acceptable for WAF that is decent. IMO, this kind of design is hard to beat in a <30 sqm room.

Hi Brad,

Nice summary of topologies - thanks for that.

Just one comment - there are standalone external multichannel dacs like Merging Nadac and a load of pro ones but I can’t vouch for their quality. Have you ever tested the multichannel dacs?

 

[morricab]

Actually Silvercore has sold GIP and he does have reservations about the sound so had made his own to address those. But it did have that W bin dual woofer midbass with two 18s. When you have that 130 cm wide, 1 m deep and 5 feet tall W bin cabinet that gets serious

Silvercore or Silbatone?

 

[morricab]

Hi Brad,

Nice summary of topologies - thanks for that.

Just one comment - there are standalone external multichannel dacs like Merging Nadac and a load of pro ones but I can’t vouch for their quality. Have you ever tested the multichannel dacs?

Only cheap pro ones...

Of course one could use the latest Accuphase digital XO that will have Accuphase quality DACs of course. I might consider this route ultimately...or just use that money for better DACs in the current setup . What I probably will do though is get an Accuphase analog active XO like I had in the past (F25) so that my analog stays analog (I have been unhappy with my A/D attempts to date, so Analog is on pause at the moment until I decide on a solution). Of course equalization is out of the question then but might be workable anyway...

 

[bonzo75]

Silvercore or Silbatone?

Silvercore. He is good friends with JC and the Silbatone guys. He has been to the WE museum in South Korea as well.

 

[bonzo75]

The accuphase crossover is horrible.

 

[morricab]

The accuphase crossover is horrible.

Digital or analog? i have had the analog xo and it was not bad at all.

 

[bonzo75]

Digital or analog? i have had the analog xo and it was not bad at all.

I am not sure, I didn't know they had two. I think it was digital

 

[morricab]

I am not sure, I didn't know they had two. I think it was digital

Yes, they have two but the analog ones (starting with F5) date back in time and are only available used...usually from japan.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes, they have two but the analog ones (starting with F5) date back in time and are only available used...usually from japan.

Yes I have seen them come up occasionally Brad.

 

[the sound of Tao]

By the way, I have not tried this but according to what I hear from people who have tried the 4003 with appropriate horns, you can have one less channel in the proposal guide I put on earlier. I update it accordingly in this message. This is still a maybe for me as I have not listened and measured it myself. I have tried not having the upper mid, it still measured (in frequency response) very well but having that channel really opened up. 2" drivers are beaming over 5-6khz and I have better off axis response with the upper mid horns added through out that band, it matches the rest of the spectrum. Still, it is hard to implement but was worth doing for me. If then, I had the chance to try 4003 I would have loved to listen to and measure for the difference.

20hz - 80hz - A bass solution you prefer, I very much prefer the OB servo bass array
80hz - 600hz - A dual FLH (rectangular mouth so as to gain space without loosing much else)
600hz - 10khz - JMLC cf 350hz - TAD 4003
10khz+ - Fostex t500amk2 or TAD et703 or similar

I would not recommend dual 18" for flh as they won't be sounding good at 600hz and are not built for that. Dual 12" or 15" would be better suited for tone and would still be efficient enough at 80hz with the right horn. I also do not recommend having ports on the flh and introducing the reflex sound. OB bass or horn bass however costly both in price and estate sounds quite a bit better if implemented correctly.

The more I think about this the more I feel the 4 way approach you outlined will be the basis of the way I go Kodomo. So many thanks for this spec... I had forgotten your mention about staying with 15 inch for flh... this looks do-able, works well with a staged plan of trialling and allows me a bit more of an economical footprint and just a bit less complexity and initial outlay to tackle as a newby. Feeling much better with this. The experience here with contributors is priceless. Much appreciated all round.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

... but I love process as much as outcome.

I TOTALLY get that.

Several times now I've written and then not posted lengthy posts or messages because something about them didn't sit right with me, and I think you have articulated it: The process needs to be unconstrained.

For instance, I might think this or that is the "best" system configuration but ONLY if you also do these two things... which in turn will only work if you do THESE three other things...

Imo kodomo and Ked and morricab are far better guides because they will keep your options open, so that the process can blossom and thrive and evolve and be open-ended.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I TOTALLY get that.

Several times now I've written and then not posted lengthy posts or messages because something about them didn't sit right with me, and I think you have articulated it: The process needs to be unconstrained.

For instance, I might think this or that is the "best" system configuration but ONLY if you also do these two things... which in turn will only work if you do THESE three other things...

Imo kodomo and Ked and morricab are far better guides because they will keep your options open, so that the process can blossom and thrive and evolve and be open-ended.

Duke I’m with you in following instinct in allowing process latitude and developing awareness in process... you get to trust how things feel then confirm with information and analysis. I’m much more used to design process in architectural and landscape context but design process is still design process. It unfolds. It starts with some clear initial vision that is fed by precedent and bound through experience and the end vision is not detail but more expressions of whole experience and then you just start moving towards it. This is how I find it at any rate.

This is then where data and analysis comes to play. Then trialling and evaluating and finer resolving and detailing.

I love design process through time and those points where you get building clearer glimpses of where you are going along the way. The designing and making and experiencing and appreciating is the constant unfolding whirl of process for me. I’m in no particular rush as I already have more than I need ... now the process is actually the need.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Design process... unfolds. It starts with some clear initial vision that is fed by precedent and bound through experience and the end vision is not detail but more expressions of whole experience and then you just start moving towards it.

Yess!! And ime the end vision may morph as you move closer to where it was, but that's just the nature of the beast, and part of what makes the creative process so interesting and rewarding.

I learned about the process playing with Legos as a kid: Rummage through the Lego bin and see what pieces are available, then you can start to imagine what can be created with them... but the process hasn't necessarily stopped. You might start out building a racing car and end up building a really sleek tank because that's where the process takes you. And the journey itself is arguably more rewarding than the destination... before long that sleek tank is evolving into a space ship. Speakers can be a big-boy version of Legos.

This is then where data and analysis comes to play. Then trialling and evaluating and finer resolving and detailing.

Ime the math and other details can make or break a loudspeaker design... fortunately the stakes aren't as high as in architecture!

I love design process through time and those points where you get building clearer glimpses of where you are going along the way.

YESS!! It's not until the process is underway, with Lego pieces scattered all around your almost-finished racing car, that you realize what it really wants to be is, a tank.

The designing and making and experiencing and appreciating is the constant unfolding whirl of process for me.

I can't help but wonder whether the Creation stories are leaving out the part where the Creator goes through The Process again and again. Otherwise, "creation" seems like an incredibly boring job to me. Maybe those parts get glossed over because the passage of Time goes unnoticed when you are In The Zone.