Frustration with Lack of Objective Advice/Information

[oldhvymec]

WOW! I've personally poured good money after good money to find NOT spending so much worked a whole lot better. Great equipment can only sound so good, from some point COST is a serious issue for me. Money has never fixed the issue. A plan of my OWN, always has.

Education
A plan that is flexible.
Room.
Grid.
Vibration control.
Speakers and then
GEAR.

Source is part of "the plan" other than a different type of vibration control for LP use. I still use tractor inner tubes at 5 psi under 300lb bass bins.. How old is that? 1985 for me.. They were 30.00 usd at the time. Pods on the other hand 2-3k for 4 300 pound cabinets. 120.00 usd vs 3K. Same with power amps or DACs or anything else. The greatest return for your investment is education. NOT 15K amps..

I know thing have gotten expensive, BUT only because YOU pay that much for it.. I paid 39K for a HOUSE. LOL. I also paid 2500.00 for a power amp that makes me shiver. I have had everything in my rooms. 2500.00 usd did the trick.. I chose a brand and went from there. It had nothing to do with brand other than having the basics I needed. Valves and flexibility. Everything else was a QC or replacement parts if needed to adjust my choice. I chose Cary V12R MBs and V12R Stereo and an SLP-05. I only chose the Cary preamp because I didn't want to mod up a C20 with XLR. I don't have the chops or the patience to learn at my age.. Besides I like the RED. At my age it better look good too. OK is not OK. Great is Great though.

Visual counts. I still use VMPS monitors. RMx Elixirs. How old are they? RM30s? I still prefer my old Strathearns over everything.. These old monitors may be OLD, but so am I. They are all one of a FEW pairs left on earth.. I like that too. Just like me. 7.9 billion and counting..

I use them all off and on.. I just keep them under silk covers and have for over 45 years.. That is the biggest part, keeping stuff clean.. Silks.. YUP....

 

[WLP3]

PeterA,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response and attachment. I very much appreciate it.

I will give you a bit of information on my background, and what precipitated my post:

I was raised around music like most of us here. My dad loved music and loved his McIntosh equipment. I have very fond memories of listening to great jazz music with my dad in his room. This exposure to music and and equipment cut my current audiophile teeth.

I listen primarily to jazz, vocals and some rock. For me listening to music is an event for me. I am not a background music person. I like to sit down and listen to great recordings. I appreciate the sonic experience more than the genre of music.

I started to get involved in audio in my twenties when I would go to an audio shop on my lunch hour (Audio Dimensions in Royal Oak, MI for those Detroiters out there) and listen to the big Magnepan speakers. They were unlike anything I had ever heard. Despite my new wife's protests I bought a pair of Maggie SMGa s and a Hafler DH120 amp and preamp combo. Such great little speakers (still have them). Children and other responsibilities put my further audiophile aspirations on pause.

Fast forward to February of this year. I was in the basement and happened upon those Maggies and thought of what fun I had enjoying music with those speakers and thought that it would be fun to create a listening room and get back into audiophilia. I selected a small, spare room off of the family room that I could make into my room. The room is about 11' X 11' X 9' . A bit small but would probably work.

So I started doing some "research" on the internet and various podcasts, etc. and wound up purchasing a pair of Harbeth P3 ESR XDs. Given my location in West Michigan, the closest Harbeth dealer was in the Detroit area. I made an appointment to listen to the speakers, but I had to hurry up because the owner had to set up some Estelon speakers that afternoon for a customer to trial in their home. My $3,600 purchase was more of an annoyance than anything else.

BTW, I had tried to buy some of the new little Maggie LRSs but could not even get a response after multiple emails and phone calls, so I gave up. Magnepans were outdated technology anyhow, right?

I always had an appreciation for the Audio Research gear that Harry Francis used to power the Maggies at Audio Dimensions, but never thought I would ever be able to afford a piece of ARC gear. The introduction of the I-50 integrated brought ARC in reach and I decided to buy one. Again, I had to go to the Detroit area to purchase one. I called the dealer and the salesperson said that they had one in stock but couldn't guarantee for how long, so I bought it over the phone. I picked it up a few days later without having ever listened to an I-50.

The bug bit again after setting up my new gear. Since I am now a card carrying audiophile, I should go to AXPONA '22 in Chicago. I bought a two-day pass and made reservations for a room at the Renaissance. While I wandered through the rooms, it became obvious how inadequate my system was. I needed more and better. There were a few rooms that stood out to me....Borreson, Raidho, Piega, Stenheim, Joseph Audio, Acora and Von Schweikert. I had really never heard of Von Schweikert before finding the forums a few months ago, and there seemed to be a pretty fervent following. They kind of looked like cheap knock-offs of Wilson speakers to me. It's funny, it seems like there are Wilson people and there are Von Schweikert people and the two do not mix. Anyhow, the Von Schweikerts sounded absolutely amazing. More real than anything I had heard to that point. Of course there was probably a million dollars worth of equipment in that room. I had read that the Von Schweikert Unifield 2 Mark IIIs were pretty amazing, and somewhat within reach at $10,000 so I thought I would see if they had a pair I could hear. They didn't, but they did have a pair of Endeavor E-3 Mk IIs which retail for $9,000. I asked if I could hear them and they said that they would set them up for me the following morning for me to listen to. They sounded fantastic. Having been assured that they would not be too big for my room, I bit the bullet and bought the show demos and brought them back.

No regrets, fantastic speakers...but they don't produce the scale of image that the old Magnepans did. Lifesize. I consulted the Oracle on the interwebs and found that they still sound great, but cool people don't listen to them and that they are really hard to drive. I sought out to find a pair somewhere not too far away to listen to this time. I couldn't find 20.7s but I could find 3.7s at a dealer an hour or so away from me. They sounded pretty good but were not broken-in and didn't seem to be set up very well. Rather than place an order for a pair of the 3.7s I decided to sleep on it (pretty proud of myself for that). I set out the following day doing more "research" and finding out that what I really want was not the puny 3.7s but the large-and-in-charge 20.7s. They were said to sound like $100,000 speakers if driven properly. That was the validation I needed to break out the credit card and place an order for the 20.7s! They were a steal at $18,000 (sorry, price just increased from $15k) Just like the giant ones I used to listen to at Audio Dimensions! They should be here in 18 short weeks!

But now what to do about power? One guy says Rogue Audio Apollo Dark monoblocks ($15k) with an RP-9 preamp (9k), one guy says that you can't really use old-school tubes on these any more and the hybrid Aesthetix monoblocks ($28k/pair) plus a pre-amp ($?), another guys says that he has really found "synergy" between the Audio Research Ref 6 SE (used $15k) and the Merrill 118 monoblocks ($38k).

Oh, BTW, I will be visiting Jim Smith in Atlanta on June 7th to learn about proper speaker placement. My hybrid Sumiko Master/Wilson WASP method that I have been using is obviously inadequate. I really need to step it up. I'm sure that Jim will have an equipment ecommendation for me as well. Oh and while I'm in Atlanta, I should stop by the dealer that sold me the VSA E3 MkIIs...I promise, I won't buy anything, honey...

And that is where I am as of yesterday, May 21, 2022. Pretty embarassing to write down. That sure is some strong Kool-Aid they are selling.

Sorry for being long-winded.

BTW I am planning on moving to a larger 12' by 45' by 9' room for the 20.7s.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hello WLP3,

So the instant question is "How should I drive my MG-20.7s?"

Why didn't you just tell us this in the first place? This question we surely can help you with!

My first loudspeakers were MG-IIIAs.

Don Saltzman, Senior Reviewer at the absolute sound, has MG-20.7s, and he has written extensively about different amplifiers he has auditioned on those loudspeakers. I encourage you to read his reviews of different amplifiers driving those speakers.

I have heard VTL MB-750s and Audio Research REF750s and Aesthetix Atlas monos on Don's Magnepans. I like tube amplifiers, so I could live very happily forever with any of these three amplifiers driving the MG-20.7s. (The Atlas is a hybrid amplifier.) I am confident that VAC 450 monos also would do an amazing job.

On the solid-state side something like a Gryphon Mephisto would be a great choice, in my opinion.

You have to do the hard work of figuring out for yourself whether you like tubes or whether you like solid-state amplifiers on those speakers. Anyone who knows Magnepans will tell you that you need a lot of current and a lot of watts to kick those speakers to life so they can provide you the emotional connection to the music and the wonderful suspension of disbelief of which they are capable.

 

[Tango]

Hello WLP3,

I was going to respond to your question by describing the process that I have gone through in the last few years and conclude with the comment that if I knew then what I know now, I would have done it all quite differently, and saved a bunch of money along the way.

I was thinking that but then this is the "only" learning process, the only way, to really understand the kind of natural sound some of us are talking about. You cannot really know the difference unless you hear the difference and experience it within your own system. One can have great faith on someone and just follow that but no audiophile will do that. Only the one who does not take this as a "hobby" is the one who can save most money.

 

[WLP3]

WOW! I've personally poured good money after good money to find NOT spending so much worked a whole lot better. Great equipment can only sound so good, from some point COST is a serious issue for me. Money has never fixed the issue. A plan of my OWN, always has.

Education
A plan that is flexible.
Room.
Grid.
Vibration control.
Speakers and then
GEAR.

Source is part of "the plan" other than a different type of vibration control for LP use. I still use tractor inner tubes at 5 psi under 300lb bass bins.. How old is that? 1985 for me.. They were 30.00 usd at the time. Pods on the other hand 2-3k for 4 300 pound cabinets. 120.00 usd vs 3K. Same with power amps or DACs or anything else. The greatest return for your investment is education. NOT 15K amps..

I know thing have gotten expensive, BUT only because YOU pay that much for it.. I paid 39K for a HOUSE. LOL. I also paid 2500.00 for a power amp that makes me shiver. I have had everything in my rooms. 2500.00 usd did the trick.. I chose a brand and went from there. It had nothing to do with brand other than having the basics I needed. Valves and flexibility. Everything else was a QC or replacement parts if needed to adjust my choice. I chose Cary V12R MBs and V12R Stereo and an SLP-05. I only chose the Cary preamp because I didn't want to mod up a C20 with XLR. I don't have the chops or the patience to learn at my age.. Besides I like the RED. At my age it better look good too. OK is not OK. Great is Great though.

Visual counts. I still use VMPS monitors. RMx Elixirs. How old are they? RM30s? I still prefer my old Strathearns over everything.. These old monitors may be OLD, but so am I. They are all one of a FEW pairs left on earth.. I like that too. Just like me. 7.9 billion and counting..

I use them all off and on.. I just keep them under silk covers and have for over 45 years.. That is the biggest part, keeping stuff clean.. Silks.. YUP....

Hello WLP3,

So the instant question is "How should I drive my MG-20.7s?"

Why didn't you just tell us this in the first place? This question we surely can help you with!

My first loudspeakers were MG-IIIAs.

Don Saltzman, Senior Reviewer at the absolute sound, has MG-20.7s, and he has written extensively about different amplifiers he has auditioned on those loudspeakers. I encourage you to read his reviews of different amplifiers driving those speakers.

I have heard VTL MB-750s and Audio Research REF750s and Aesthetix Atlas monos on Don's Magnepans. I like tube amplifiers, so I could live very happily forever with any of these three amplifiers driving the MG-20.7s. (The Atlas is a hybrid amplifier.) I am confident that VAC 450 monos also would do an amazing job.

On the solid-state side something like a Gryphon Mephisto would be a great choice, in my opinion.

You have to do the hard work of figuring out for yourself whether you like tubes or whether you like solid-state amplifiers on those speakers. Anyone who knows Magnepans will tell you that you need a lot of current and a lot of watts to kick those speakers to life so they can provide you the emotional connection to the music and the wonderful suspension of disbelief of which they are capable.

Thanks, Ron.

I did post a question regarding 20.7s and Rogue Apollos the other day, and unfortunately I did not receive any responses. I posted it in the Magnepan Forum.

I have read Don Salzman's review of the 20.7 and I spoke to Bob Grossman of Enjoy the Music who also reviewed the 20.7 and has a history with them. I would like to find a way to communicate to Don regarding his long experience with them. Would he be on this forum? I have not been able to find an email for him online.

Don mentions that his VTL 750s were less than ideal with the 20.7s and he switched to the Atlas monos for bass control. I should have mentioned that my budget is about $20k and the Aesthetix and Gryphon options are outside of my budget. Bob Grossman currently uses the Rogue Apollo monos and recommends them. Don's review has given me pause about the Rogue option because of the bass control issues he mentions.

On the SS side Pass Labs 350.8 in stereo or perhaps the 250.8 monos would be another option. Jeff Rowland I guess would be another option. Lots of possibilities.

Thanks for responding. My apologies for not getting to the point.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks, Ron.

I did post a question regarding 20.7s and Rogue Apollos the other day, and unfortunately I did not receive any responses. I posted it in the Magnepan Forum.

I have read Don Salzman's review of the 20.7 and I spoke to Bob Grossman of Enjoy the Music who also reviewed the 20.7 and has a history with them. I would like to find a way to communicate to Don regarding his long experience with them. Would he be on this forum? I have not been able to find an email for him online.

Don mentions that his VTL 750s were less than ideal with the 20.7s and he switched to the Atlas monos for bass control. I should have mentioned that my budget is about $20k and the Aesthetix and Gryphon options are outside of my budget. Bob Grossman currently uses the Rogue Apollo monos and recommends them. Don's review has given me pause about the Rogue option because of the bass control issues he mentions.

On the SS side Pass Labs 350.8 in stereo or perhaps the 250.8 monos would be another option. Jeff Rowland I guess would be another option. Lots of possibilities.

Thanks for responding. My apologies for not getting to the point.

Nothing at all to apologize for!

The VTL MB-750s are long out of production, so they are not in contention. The current iteration is the Siegfried II.

Here is Don's review of the Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monos: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/aesthetix-atlas-eclipse-power-amplifier

All in all, my listening experience with the Atlas Eclipse monos was thoroughly enjoyable. They are extremely transparent, thereby curing the major issue I had with earlier versions of the Atlas amps. All music emerges out of a completely black and quiet sonic background, thereby enhancing low-level detail. Further, these amps are very powerful, easily getting the best performance from my inefficient Magnepan 20.7s without any strain or sense of compression. The Eclipse offers many of the sonic advantages of all-tube designs, approaching and sometimes equaling many of those designs in depth and width of soundstage and three-dimensional reproduction of instruments and voices. At the same time, the very extended upper frequencies of the Atlas may seem, on some recordings, not quite as laid-back as some tube amps. Over time it became apparent that these amplifiers do not impose any particular sonic signature upon the music and, far more often than not, reveal air, space, and detail lost on lesser gear. Moreover, in the low frequencies the Eclipse amps seem to exceed the performance of many tube amplifiers in that they exhibit the power and tight control of high-power solid-state amplification, yet without dryness or loss of instrumental texture.

The Eclipse monos are also very user friendly. They are physically extremely quiet and make no noise whatsoever that would intrude into the listening room. They put out very little heat (only becoming slightly warm to the touch) and do not require the owner to periodically replace many tubes. With only one tube to replace every few years or so, they are almost as easy to maintain as a pure solid-state amplifier.

In short, the Atlas Eclipse monos are highly recommended. They offer elite high-end sound quality, great flexibility and user friendliness at a reasonable cost in today’s market.

On the used market Atlas monos will be under $20,000. If I could not afford used VTL Siegfried IIs or the current Audio Research 750s I would find Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monos -- and never think about amplifiers for your MG-20.7s again.

 

[PeterA]

I was thinking that but then this is the "only" learning process, the only way, to really understand the kind of natural sound some of us are talking about. You cannot really know the difference unless you hear the difference and experience it within your own system. One can have great faith on someone and just follow that but no audiophile will do that. Only the one who does not take this as a "hobby" is the one who can save most money.

That is a great point Tang. One learns best by doing, but a good teacher helps. Even DDK learned from Vladimir Lamm. I think the key ingredient is having an open mind and the ability to recognize mistakes and being willing to abandon them. You and I share that advantage.

 

[WLP3]

Nothing at all to apologize for!

The VTL MB-750s are long out of production, so they are not in contention. The current iteration is the Siegfried II.

Here is Don's review of the Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monos: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/aesthetix-atlas-eclipse-power-amplifier

All in all, my listening experience with the Atlas Eclipse monos was thoroughly enjoyable. They are extremely transparent, thereby curing the major issue I had with earlier versions of the Atlas amps. All music emerges out of a completely black and quiet sonic background, thereby enhancing low-level detail. Further, these amps are very powerful, easily getting the best performance from my inefficient Magnepan 20.7s without any strain or sense of compression. The Eclipse offers many of the sonic advantages of all-tube designs, approaching and sometimes equaling many of those designs in depth and width of soundstage and three-dimensional reproduction of instruments and voices. At the same time, the very extended upper frequencies of the Atlas may seem, on some recordings, not quite as laid-back as some tube amps. Over time it became apparent that these amplifiers do not impose any particular sonic signature upon the music and, far more often than not, reveal air, space, and detail lost on lesser gear. Moreover, in the low frequencies the Eclipse amps seem to exceed the performance of many tube amplifiers in that they exhibit the power and tight control of high-power solid-state amplification, yet without dryness or loss of instrumental texture.

The Eclipse monos are also very user friendly. They are physically extremely quiet and make no noise whatsoever that would intrude into the listening room. They put out very little heat (only becoming slightly warm to the touch) and do not require the owner to periodically replace many tubes. With only one tube to replace every few years or so, they are almost as easy to maintain as a pure solid-state amplifier.

In short, the Atlas Eclipse monos are highly recommended. They offer elite high-end sound quality, great flexibility and user friendliness at a reasonable cost in today’s market.

On the used market Atlas monos will be under $20,000. If I could not afford used VTL Siegfried IIs or the current Audio Research 750s I would find Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monos -- and never think about amplifiers for your MG-20.7s again.

Thanks, Ron. I am a bit goosy about buying a used end-game amp, so I think I may go with an interim solution until I learn more about the speakers and what are the options in the amplifier market. Maybe the Rogue Apollos since Bob Grossman has had a good experience with them? They would be $20k for the pair of monos and the RP-9 preamp.

 

[PeterA]

Thanks, Ron. I am a bit goosy about buying a used end-game amp, so I think I may go with an interim solution until I learn more about the speakers and what are the options in the amplifier market. Maybe the Rogue Apollos since Bob Grossman has had a good experience with them? They would be $20k for the pair of monos and the RP-9 preamp.

I just bought an end game amp used. The key is finding the amp in the first place, and then buying it from the right dealer or knowing the manufacturer will support it. In my case the amp is not even made anymore. I understand your trepidation, but there are exceptions.

 

[WLP3]

I just bought an end game amp used. The key is finding the right dealer who will support it. In my case the amp is not even made anymore. I understand your trepidation, but there are exceptions.

Thanks, Peter. I did find a pair of VTL Siegfried IIs on the used market for $27k but I would have to add a pre-amp, which I'm sure would be another $10k. I would feel more comfortable getting to know the speakers and absorbing more knowledge from people like you before going for an end-game move.

 

[DonH50]

I use objective data (measurements, reviews) from sites like ASR (Audio Science Review Forum) or Stereophile's measurements to "weed out" components that are clearly "bad" or will not suit my needs, then focus on features and price (usually in that order). That of course requires some understanding of what the technical metrics mean, and is totally at odds with the purely subjective approach prevalent at many audiophile sites (and dealers). It does help identify some obvious mismatches, like pairing a SET with my Salon2's, or thinking a 500 W/ch amp is a reasonable match to a high-efficiency speaker using compression drivers and horns. In either of those examples, I'd have to weigh what the specs imply will happen vs. my personal preferences, e.g. "Will the SET's high output impedance and limited power provide the frequency response and SPL I want?" or "Is that high-powered amp on horns going to turn my room into a hiss-room?"

My equipment choices for my old Maggies and new Salon2 speakers reflect technical data, preference, and cost. The order moves around a little but are roughly equal. The best measurements may not align with my preference or budget, for instance.

FWIWFM - Don