Genesis 1.1 Review

[microstrip]

That made fascinating reading for me. I run to every live string quartets I possibly can and I absolutely concur with the above. This may be the reason that I often did not take to many electronics that rate high in audiophile esteem. What i mostly missed also were aura and bloom around the instruments. Does not as yet seem possible to reproduce, possibly also because razor sharp image presentation seems more often than not the preffered design goal. Wonder if I am right in this. Just a hunch.

We get most of the imaging in a life audience from our visual information. Our brain immediately associates the space with the aural image. In a recording sound engineers manipulate the information coming from the microphones to overcome the lack of visual image - it one the reasons recordings do not aim to reproduce the exact physical conditions of the event.
Many systems aim at razor like image presentation using the recording information - they are not my preference, although I understand many people appreciate it.

Some people find the large Soundlab's present a blurred image, even larger than life. IMHO, coupled with the proper electronics, they just manage to keep some of the aura and bloom you refer around instruments, spatial relationships in chamber music being subtly enhanced by intonations and fine detail.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree. I close my eyes sometimes at concerts. Visual memory says things are pin pointed, and violin is small and goes back and forth. Close your eyes and the sound does not tie up with the visual memory.

 

[Detlof]

Stats and ribbon panels do the best reproduction of live solo and small ensembles, vocals and strings. Stats are focused while ribbons not as much. So I am bit ambivalent to that imaging, but there is more to it than the imaging that gives realism. And if you add SS to stats it is more focused, with valves it is less, and I am quite happy with valves, especially those like Jadis which are even less focused.

Agree, very much like the Quads with either Ja 80 or the Ja200 with chamber music.

 

[Detlof]

Microstrip, How true! For years I had the same speakers as you have and in a sense I miss them for the very same reasons you describe so well. When I had them blended with Ralph Karsten's Atma-Spheres I was happy. They are probably the musically most convincing esl on the market, at least for my ears. The German Physiks Emperors, since their DDD-drivers are coherent from about 100 to 20khz do almost as well, apart from being much more powerful from 100hz on down and can be listened to really loud with big orchestral music, but they lack the finesse of the Sound Lab in the upper register. You cannot have it all, alas.

 

[LL21]

I agree. I close my eyes sometimes at concerts. Visual memory says things are pin pointed, and violin is small and goes back and forth. Close your eyes and the sound does not tie up with the visual memory.

Absolutely my own personal experience as well. Live concerts in large halls down to intimate jazz ensembles. No pinpoint.

Perhaps it is the microphones (and how they are designed and setup) that do the recording that pick up focused, centralized points of sound.

 

[GaryProtein]

Absolutely my own personal experience as well. Live concerts in large halls down to intimate jazz ensembles. No pinpoint.

Perhaps it is the microphones (and how they are designed and setup) that do the recording that pick up focused, centralized points of sound.

In a hall, it's actually difficult to accurately localize a solo instrument.

 

[Al M.]

Absolutely my own personal experience as well. Live concerts in large halls down to intimate jazz ensembles. No pinpoint.

Perhaps it is the microphones (and how they are designed and setup) that do the recording that pick up focused, centralized points of sound.

It depends. I used to also think that pinpoint imaging was an artifact, but a few more recent concert experiences have made me rethink this. Last year I sat very close to a large orrchestra, and with eyes closed could easily localize instruments with precision, even though perhaps not quite as pinpoint imaging. Last month I attended a concert for small ensemble and a string quartet concert, where in both cases I sat close to the performers as well. There was in fact pinpoint imaging, with eyes closed.

I assume that live most of the time reflected sound supersedes direct sound. Yet when you it so close that direct sound is the main component, you can get precise imaging, up to pinpoint, if the acoustic allows. I have concluded that it is not necessarily an artifact what we hear on stereo systems.

 

[RBFC]

It depends. I used to also think that pinpoint imaging was an artifact, but a few more recent concert experiences have made me rethink this. Last year I sat very close to a large orrchestra, and with eyes closed could easily localize instruments with precision, even though perhaps not quite as pinpoint imaging. Last month I attended a concert for small ensemble and a string quartet concert, where in both cases I sat close to the performers as well. There was in fact pinpoint imaging, with eyes closed.

I assume that live most of the time reflected sound supersedes direct sound. Yet when you it so close that direct sound is the main component, you can get precise imaging, up to pinpoint, if the acoustic allows. I have concluded that it is not necessarily an artifact what we hear on stereo systems.

Pinpoint imaging may indeed be what the microphones hear more often than the live audience. Mike positions are often very fixed (within certain ranges), while seating position (and resultant hall contributions) can vary widely.

Lee

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Great debate , that of "imaging". The notion of imaging in most concert halls is moot. Truly it is a big "blob" of sound that hit you when you are in most concert halls.. Very diffuse and not much imaging to speak of. The soundstage though is present there is a place where the sounds come from (actually it is an all around presentation).. Also there are "things" that come from the right, left or center but .. specific images? Not much IME.
In a small club or smaller venues then it can be a different story at least to my ears. you can hear a lot of the instruments and their positions in space and in 3-D. Soundstage with very specific images in and through themUnfortunately recordings have not made that distinction for the most part as they try to provide too much information on the position of instruments in space. Even so-called audiophile recordings fail there presenting us with symphonic works ina way we would never hear them live. What is somewhat ironic is that many audiophiles do take such presentations as their reference for imaging .. A trip to the same venue if possible would convince them fo he contrary but that is not often possible.
THe ideal would be a system/speaker room that can do that. Present the image as it was originally. Diffuse if it were the case and precise if needs be. Unfortunately we have too many systems with a tendency to be always precise int heir imaging even if the recording and the piece do not call for such or the contrary presenting a big "blob" of sound .. THe so-called 10-feet wide mouth ... I believe that properly set-up great speakers can do both .. FOr the most part those are large speakers .. smaller speakers tend to do better when the piece calls for precise imaging only. Of course IMO, YMMV and all the lusual disclaimers

 

[bonzo75]

In concert halls it also depends where you sit. Closer up you get more imaging as compared to further back where it comes as one blob. I usually sit in stalls, 10th row or so, centre, when possible. Else take a random ticket and adjust myself midway based on the absentees

 

[Al M.]

It seems that the latest posts here are in agreement with, or do not contradict, what I said earlier:

"I assume that live most of the time reflected sound supersedes direct sound. Yet when you it so close that direct sound is the main component, you can get precise imaging, up to pinpoint, if the acoustic allows."

It really depends on seating position and acoustics.

 

[garylkoh]

I highly recommend that you attend a 'live' recording if you can. Yarlung Artists is one brave label that invites their customers to their live recording sessions. The next one in Segerstrom Hall is going to be held in January. Sign up to their newsletters and emails on their website and you might get an invitation to participate.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,

Thank you for an excellent balanced and objective review that is also a fabulous read. I concur with your review - including the point about the slightly diffuse image of the solo vocalist.

I've been to a couple of "live" recording sessions where I managed to snag the live mic feed and the mixed and unmastered digital files. In no case have the imaging been as sharply delineated as the audiophile's preference. Hence, this sharply delineated image is not one of my design goals. Even with a string quartet, listening unamplified live does not give as clearly delineated an image as what I can imagine as an audiophile.

With my designs, you can achieve that by toe-ing the speakers and pointing them at your ears. However, this massively reduces size of the sweet spot and it becomes a speaker for one person. You also lose the ability to sit anywhere in the room and enjoy your system. Hence, again not one of my design goals. You would be better served with a pair of speakers designed to be toed-in (but then your wife and you won't be able to enjoy the music equally together). Because of the dispersion pattern, the imaging also suffers when the room is too narrow.

This is not due to the design of the Genesis tweeters. Audiocrack's older Genesis 1.1 probably has Arnie's round ribbons. The Ring Radiator I developed a few years ago, and it has better dispersion. Neither will help with this center image as the frequencies of the imaging are much lower. The tweeters operate much higher in frequency - in the sibilance frequencies and up.

Upper bass/lower midrange is not 200Hz to 400Hz. Middle C is 261Hz. What you hear as "body" and "richness" should be in the range of 80Hz to 200Hz.

With line-source loudspeakers, because the line-source only radiate horizontally and does not disperse vertically, you do not get the floor-boundary reinforcement that comes as a result of floor bounce. Even with a thickly carpeted floor (which absorbs the higher frequency but reflects the lower frequencies) you will get this reinforcement. With my designs, the servo is fast enough not to muddy up when the low-pass is set to higher than 110Hz. Hence, for customers who desire this additional richness, we can create a up to 6dB "hump" from 100Hz to 180Hz by adjusting the low-pass frequency. I don't know what frequencies the woofers of the other speakers mentioned are crossed-over at, but I doubt that they would be much above 100Hz given their size. What you are hearing is the floor-boundary reinforcement of the mid-bass driver. (Wavelength of 110Hz is 10 feet)

This cheatsheet for a mixing engineer gives you a much better idea of the frequencies involved with music:
http://www.threepbeats.com/equalization/understanding-frequency-bands/

If you can make it to CES, we'll have the 2-tower Genesis Forte line-source loudspeaker on demo.

Dear Gary,

Thank you very much for your kind words about the review!

Thank you, also, for explaining the artificiality of the sharply delineated solo vocalist image, and for correcting me that upper base/lower midrange is in the range of 80 Hz to 200 Hz.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I make sure that you can't hear the amps - hence the point does not matter anymore. The crossover/servo system is now driven at the same point as the midrange/tweeter crossover. I then have to ensure that the servo system has the same sound as my mid/tweet crossover.

I agree with you -- I like the woofer amps to be driven by the speaker-level signal from the midrange/tweeter amplifier.

 

[asiufy]

I agree with you -- I like the woofer amps to be driven by the speaker-level signal from the midrange/tweeter amplifier.

Curiosity: isn't that how most speakers with powered woofers work these days? I know the Evolutions do, and I could empirically verify that the bass character changes with an amp change!

 

[garylkoh]

Curiosity: isn't that how most speakers with powered woofers work these days? I know the Evolutions do, and I could empirically verify that the bass character changes with an amp change!

I do believe that it should be. However, I encountered some very new designs that have the powered woofers driven from the preamp.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Wilson Audio's Watch Controller (the crossover, level, phase and notch filter device for the Thor's Hammer subwoofer) also does not permit a speaker-level input.

 

[microstrip]

Wilson Audio's Watch Controller (the crossover, level, phase and notch filter device for the Thor's Hammer subwoofer) also does not permit a speaker-level input.

You can use a simple custom built cable with two passive atenuators - only a few resistors are needed.

 

[Audiocrack]

The older brother of the largest Genesis loudspeakers. Paul refurbished the IRS V’s lovingly and beautifully. Not sure though if they are full IRS V loudspeakers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/binaural-video-report-sound-ps-audio’s-irs-vs

 

[shakti]

great,
thanx for sharing!