Giant Custom Horn Systems - How they sound and issues with sonics

I definitely dream of one day building the ultimate system and room. I see what some of these crazy guys do with truly giant custom horn installations and they make me drool, but (like most of us) I've never had an opportunity to hear one of these crazy systems (see pics).

But I'm guessing at least a few of you have and others probably possess some theoretical engineering knowledge around the issues these giant horn systems might create, but I've never seen a thread that discusses the sonic pro's and con's of these systems.

Would love to hear some thoughts (even if it is just some pontificating on theory) regarding these types of installations. Let's discuss.

 

Indeed!

I'm very happy with mine, and it does bypass all of the spacing, phase and delay issues larger horn systems can have. Of course there are trade-offs, it can play fairly loud but isn't suitable for a theatre sized space, and the acoustic gain/mechanical impedance advantages of large horns is only partially present. But, this also makes it easy to integrate with a conventional woofer. IMO, it is a sensible way to go for a home system as it is easy to integrate into a living space given it's directivity and can be listened to at much closer distances.

I also think Danley's full-range tapped horn concept is excellent, but haven't played around with it as I don't need the SPLs they are capable of and want to keep things as simple as possible.

Dave,
Have you posted pics of your horns?

 

I am also interested in seeing the horns of DaveC including driver choice etc.

 

Indeed!

I'm very happy with mine, and it does bypass all of the spacing, phase and delay issues larger horn systems can have. Of course there are trade-offs, it can play fairly loud but isn't suitable for a theatre sized space, and the acoustic gain/mechanical impedance advantages of large horns is only partially present. But, this also makes it easy to integrate with a conventional woofer. IMO, it is a sensible way to go for a home system as it is easy to integrate into a living space given it's directivity and can be listened to at much closer distances.

I also think Danley's full-range tapped horn concept is excellent, but haven't played around with it as I don't need the SPLs they are capable of and want to keep things as simple as possible.

We apparently share the same vision. Big horn systems could sound really nice, but generally need some space to breath and allow seperate horns to blend together.
The Aries-Cerat Symphonia, with its rather unusual combination of drivers, appears to be an example of a well-developed mixture.
However, one of the merits of (larger) efficient horn systems is the ability to effortlessly reproduce whatever content is played through them, no matter the complexity of the music, or the SPL. In this respect the Aries-Cerat is undoubtedly somewhat limited due to the physical constraints of its design. At home, I think these "limitations" are moot.

Danley's Synergy may turn out to be the future of horn technology, but not in its current form. I have experienced some Danley products during live events and wasn't overwhelmed by the fidelity. My DIY buddies are excited about synergy horns and one of them has come up with a very clever concept that's both simple, elegant and far more suitable for residental use.

 

Hi D Duttilleux,

Any experience of full range field coil drive based horns at all?

 

If you mean full range field coil drivers like: Atelier Rullit, Voxativ, Wolff Von Langa or the Lowther FC, I haven't.

I did listen to some G.I.P. field coil loaded horn systems and even had some drivers in my hands.
The G.I.P. systems are a class of their own; once setup properly (optimized for the room and associated electronics) these are really the epiphany of Audio Nirvana.
For this reason I want to listen to the big Living Voice systems, because I expect these to perform similarly, but with even higher resolution over an extended frequency range.

It shouldn't be too hard to obtain a least 70-80% of the LV sound with appropriate woodworking skills or a cabinet maker, quality components and some plans (which are widely available online). One could forego the trumpet, focus on integration of a hornloaded bass cab, a large radial horn + a supertweeter and save enough money to build a dedicated cottage to enjoy your own creation .

This horn, which costs 1/10th of the Vitavox horn in the LV, performs even better:

 

If you mean full range field coil drivers like: Atelier Rullit, Voxativ, Wolff Von Langa or the Lowther FC, I haven't.

I did listen to some G.I.P. field coil loaded horn systems and even had some drivers in my hands.
The G.I.P. systems are a class of their own; once setup properly (optimized for the room and associated electronics) these are really the epiphany of Audio Nirvana.
For this reason I want to listen to the big Living Voice systems, because I guess these will perform in a similar way, but with even better resolution and extension.

Yes I did indeed refer to the Atelier, Voxativ etc.

I heard the GIP at Munich a few years back and found it preferable to the Living Voice Vox Olympian. Problem with the LV Vox is that it is always demonstrated with Kondo electronics so unless that is your thing then it gives a certain “flavour” - the GIP / Silbatone was more extended with greater resolution btw.

 

Dave,
Have you posted pics of your horns?

I am also interested in seeing the horns of DaveC including driver choice etc.

Thanks! Will post a pic when the final prototypes are built. The main driver is 4.5" driver with a small VC and light cone that has a naturally rising response the horn compensates for.

We apparently share the same vision. Big horn systems could sound really nice, but generally need some space to breath and allow seperate horns to blend together.
The Aries-Cerat Symphonia, with its rather unusual combination of drivers, appears to be an example of a well-developed mixture.
However, one of the merits of (larger) efficient horn systems is the ability to effortlessly reproduce whatever content is played through them, no matter the complexity of the music, or the SPL. In this respect the Aries-Cerat is undoubtedly somewhat limited due to the physical constraints of its design. At home, I think these "limitations" are moot.

Danley's Synergy may turn out to be the future of horn technology, but not in its current form. I have experienced some Danley products during live events and wasn't overwhelmed by the fidelity. My DIY buddies are excited about synergy horns and one of them has come up with a very clever concept that's both simple, elegant and far more suitable for residental use.

It does work well but it doesn't eliminate every compromise a wide band driver often has... and that includes big, complex music. It's much better vs a single driver speaker but not as good as a large horn or even a large conventional speaker. It does retain a lot of the positive aspects of single drivers, they can be listened to nearfield, mids don't really need an xo, but I do use a single cap to limit excursion at the same point as the horn's acoustic roll off. The big plus is it makes it easy to integrate in a conventional living spaces, and because of the simplicity it is very good at presenting fine detail, which also creates an immersive 3D soundstage.

I've read some of Danley's comments online and it is true the current products, which are intended for PA use, are not as refined as he'd like for home use. I believe he said additional xo tweaks could eq the response better, and he's considered a home version of his speaker but has not got around to it yet. I can't blame him... PA sales are probably fairly lucrative and more straightforward vs dealing with audiophiles! I hope your friend comes up with a good home version, I think it's a nice design, but is obviously a bit more complicated vs a single driver in a horn... and that is much more complicated than meets the eye! Still, some interesting projects have come out of it on diyaudio...

 

Yes I did indeed refer to the Atelier, Voxativ etc.

I heard the GIP at Munich a few years back and found it preferable to the Living Voice Vox Olympian. Problem with the LV Vox is that it is always demonstrated with Kondo electronics so unless that is your thing then it gives a certain “flavour” - the GIP / Silbatone was more extended with greater resolution btw.

It likely depends on the system, the G.I.P. 9700 is a very capable loudspeaker, but it's also quite difficult to set up in order to perform at its best.
The same goes for LV; the associated electronics are, to a great extent, determinative of the sound quality.

I doubt the smaller G.I.P. speakers beat the LV Vox Palladium + Vox Basso with regards to extension or resolution.
Its likely the homogeneous presentation of the G.I.P. speakers, especially when set up by G.I.P. people, that provide a seamless blend of resolution, extension and scale.
In the end its all about the experience isn't it?

 

It likely depends on the system, the G.I.P. 9700 is a very capable loudspeaker, but it's also quite difficult to set up in order to perform at its best.
The same goes for LV; the associated electronics are, to a great extent, determinative of the sound quality.

I doubt the smaller G.I.P. speakers beat the LV Vox Palladium + Vox Basso with regards to extension or resolution.
Its likely the homogeneous presentation of the G.I.P. speakers, especially when set up by G.I.P. people, that provide a seamless blend of resolution, extension and scale.
In the end its all about the experience isn't it?

Actually these were pretty massive GIP ones - I think the model was 9700A or something.

It was also the Vox Olympian not Palladian with the full Elysium subs not those smaller Basso ones.

But regarding extension I always found Kondo pretty deliberately rolled off up top so it wasn’t surprising even though the Vox had the super tweeter horns.

 

Anybody has a proper freq plot (in roomresponse) of some of these sota Giant hornsystems.
If they have a bad transition somewhere or rolled of highs OR lows it would be easily spotted.

 

If you search across the many DIY forums worldwide, you'll find plenty of measurements.
Below is a quote from a german manufacturer of large SATO and WE horns. The measurements are from individual large horns without bass horn:
If you manage to fix delay, phase and other issues, these horns are not that difficult to integrate with a basshorn and super tweeter.


"On this Graph you can see the Frequency response of the WE66 (green) and the Satohorn (black). The Satohorn is a little bit more linear, the WE66A has the deeper LF and a bit wider Sweetspot.

Both Measurements are taken with the same driver in 400 cm distance from the horn mouth. So the normal reflections of the walls, floor and ceiling are already visible."





The following measurement shows the compression driver we are actually using.

1.Magnitude frequency response

2. THD r2

3. THH r3





And an image showing some of their products:

 

Minus 3 db in the high freq allready at 4 kHz
Minus 10 db at 6 kHz , that is far from An accurate transducer.
Its a limited bandwidth design.
Im not even talking bass freq as you say that the Basshorn is not added i would love to see that .
This looks to me as a good midrange driver pretty flat from 100 Hz. - 3 kHz.
Green Line that is , the other one goes to around 5 khz flat

 

Many of these large horn systems will produce measurement plots akin to a cross section of the Alps.
If you tell owners and people who've listened to such loudspeaker systems these are far from accurate, they'd probably chuckle and think: "Who cares?"

No sane engineer would use such systems for mastering or monitoring.
People hunting flat responses, perfect group delay etc. should probably focus on B&W, GamuT, KEF, Wilson, Dynaudio, Magico, or even better: Genelec, ATC, Dutch&Dutch and Kii.

Personally, I've heard and owned many of such direct radiators. Some are very good, especially the smaller monitors, but none of these does get me involved
in the music in the same way a high sensitvity (horn) system does.

 

Sure, i personally havent heard one i liked, i have nt heard one of those monster hornsystems Though.
Dutch and dutch never heard of the brand

 

For what's it worth

These are from your country, as the name suggests.

 

Cool Little active speaker , i m sorry i never read magz.
Any chance hearing a monster Horn around Amsterdam / brussels

 

Carolus has a fantastic 5 way horn in Brussels

 

Any links?
Pics?

 

The one here that says Karel's horns - If you PM Carolus he will tell you how to get to his place.http://zero-distortion.org/diy-horns/

 

Sure , i might ask him they look pretty big.