Giant Custom Horn Systems - How they sound and issues with sonics

I definitely dream of one day building the ultimate system and room. I see what some of these crazy guys do with truly giant custom horn installations and they make me drool, but (like most of us) I've never had an opportunity to hear one of these crazy systems (see pics).

But I'm guessing at least a few of you have and others probably possess some theoretical engineering knowledge around the issues these giant horn systems might create, but I've never seen a thread that discusses the sonic pro's and con's of these systems.

Would love to hear some thoughts (even if it is just some pontificating on theory) regarding these types of installations. Let's discuss.
 
isn't the Westminster a back loaded horn cabinet?

But they do have a 13" back loaded horn for the bass correct?

Horn loaded cabinets sound nothing like a horn speaker and share little or nothing in common. It's just a way to get slightly deeper bass from a smaller cabinet like porting.

Those aren't horn speakers David?

They're just dual concentric drivers with a decorative frame around the driver. The cabinet is what they call horn loaded to get deeper bass but they sound similar to ported dynamic speakers, of course Tannoy drivers are unique and have their own special sound quality. The Westminster is just a play on their original GRF & Autograph Professional boxes with that funky mount instead of the the grill covering.

L_001391.jpg

david
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Duke LeJeune
It's a way to trick people who want horns into buying cones. And to top it all they run it on SETs.

They're not trying to trick anyone, their vintage models were great speakers and horn loading wasn't meant to replace horn speakers just an interesting way to realize more bass. What's misleading like many speakers is the sensitivity figure, that 15" woofer section needs a good 100 push/pull watts to come to life. It's just one of those things that get pretty sound with 20watts on those Tannoys but takes a lot more to bring to life.

david
 
Horn loaded cabinets sound nothing like a horn speaker and share little or nothing in common. It's just a way to get slightly deeper bass from a smaller cabinet like porting.



They're just dual concentric drivers with a decorative frame around the driver. The cabinet is what they call horn loaded to get deeper bass but they sound similar to ported dynamic speakers, of course Tannoy drivers are unique and have their own special sound quality. The Westminster is just a play on their original GRF & Autograph Professional boxes with that funky mount instead of the the grill covering.

View attachment 39381

david

Hate to argue about this David but you and bonzo are both wrong. It doesn't matter whether you load the front wave or the back wave of the driver with a horn, as long as it is of sufficient length and has the right exponential expansion then it is a horn...by definition. Now, to be sure, with a back loaded horn there is also the front wave radiating into the room as direct radiation, which will give it somewhat different midrange dispersion. In the case of the Westminster it looks like they put a kind of short horn on the front of the driver to give some boost in the mids most likely...or this could be a kind of waveguide. You may not like this sound as it will be somewhat different than an all front firing horn system but that doesn't mean it is some kind of special vented box design...it is nothing of the sort...the physics are quite different.

Also, unless a back horn is quite long it will not make "deeper bass" than either a vented or sealed box of smaller dimensions. Just looking at the Westminster's size alone should tell you this...the smaller vented models go at least as deep...but not as sensitive...which is the real advantage of the horn loading.
 
They're not trying to trick anyone, their vintage models were great speakers and horn loading wasn't meant to replace horn speakers just an interesting way to realize more bass. What's misleading like many speakers is the sensitivity figure, that 15" woofer section needs a good 100 push/pull watts to come to life. It's just one of those things that get pretty sound with 20watts on those Tannoys but takes a lot more to bring to life.

david

You're correct about the amp size for sure David. Our mutual friend in Seattle Scott has tried to run his Tannoy Autographs with the ML2, they failed to energize the speaker. He used the M2.1 to excellent results.
 
Hate to argue about this David but you and bonzo are both wrong. It doesn't matter whether you load the front wave or the back wave of the driver with a horn, as long as it is of sufficient length and has the right exponential expansion then it is a horn...by definition. Now, to be sure, with a back loaded horn there is also the front wave radiating into the room as direct radiation, which will give it somewhat different midrange dispersion. In the case of the Westminster it looks like they put a kind of short horn on the front of the driver to give some boost in the mids most likely...or this could be a kind of waveguide. You may not like this sound as it will be somewhat different than an all front firing horn system but that doesn't mean it is some kind of special vented box design...it is nothing of the sort...the physics are quite different.

Also, unless a back horn is quite long it will not make "deeper bass" than either a vented or sealed box of smaller dimensions. Just looking at the Westminster's size alone should tell you this...the smaller vented models go at least as deep...but not as sensitive...which is the real advantage of the horn loading.

Don't know what that is on the front of the Westminster but it's not a horn of any kind nor does it behave or sound like one. I don't know the length of the folded horn in the cabinet but it's not SET friendly and requires similar power to their vented models to move air. I guess you're technically correct about rear loaded cabinets being categorized as horns just I never though of them as true horn speakers specially the Tannoys. Even the vintage 15" Monitor Gold ones can do with some power to come to life. But I can bi-amp this model and get away with a pair of SETs par channel and active crossover.

david
 
You're correct about the amp size for sure David. Our mutual friend in Seattle Scott has tried to run his Tannoy Autographs with the ML2, they failed to energize the speaker. He used the M2.1 to excellent results.

The M1.2 would have been enough, they really sing with those Lamms!

david
 
The M1.2 would have been enough, they really sing with those Lamms!

david

Interesting David

I was never impressed with Westminster with set except once when I heard with Accuphase class A , I agree with Lamm m1.2 would be something

I must admit I always thought of them as horn loaded, but never liked their type of sound
 
Interesting David

I was never impressed with Westminster with set except once when I heard with Accuphase class A , I agree with Lamm m1.2 would be something

I must admit I always thought of them as horn loaded, but never liked their type of sound

The vintage models with Monitor series drivers it's at with the Tannoys and out of those 10" Monitor drivers were SET friendly, 12" depending on the series was borderline and 15" drivers always require current. It's also true of vintage Altecs, the horn section sounded amazing with SETs but bass driver was muddy with less than 50 watts.

david
 
The vintage models with Monitor series drivers it's at with the Tannoys and out of those 10" Monitor drivers were SET friendly, 12" depending on the series was borderline and 15" drivers always require current. It's also true of vintage Altecs, the horn section sounded amazing with SETs but bass driver was muddy with less than 50 watts.

david

Thanks David

Appreciate you vast experience on this website...

I am considering purchasing a vintage altec system, with petite onken cabinet for bass and wood horn for mid both with altec drivers 414A and 288D

This has an external crossover and Can be bi amped, so can I gather my Lamm m1.2 might actually be ideal for this set up , or SET on top ( Lamm of course lol) and m1.2 on bass?
 
I was never impressed with Westminster with set except once when I heard with Accuphase class A , I agree with Lamm m1.2 would be something

I must admit I always thought of them as horn loaded, but never liked their type of sound

Yes, I thought that Tannoys of that design have a fat "romantic" 1950's kind of sound. The type of sound that makes you feel old. I think this is because people take advantage of the high sensitivity and pair it with tiny SET's. The ONE time I heard it with a bit of power from a SS amp, it actually lost a lot of its fat coloration and became much more neutral, although some of the coloration was still there. What impressed me the most was its lifelike dynamics - not too constrained (like most box speakers) and not over-the-top (like some horns). The other thing I liked was its imaging. Here is a speaker that gives you the advantage of horns (dynamics) without the downsides (poor imaging and unrealistic soundstage). The trade-off is its heavily coloured sound, which you may or may not like.
 
Thanks David

Appreciate you vast experience on this website...

I am considering purchasing a vintage altec system, with petite onken cabinet for bass and wood horn for mid both with altec drivers 414A and 288D

This has an external crossover and Can be bi amped, so can I gather my Lamm m1.2 might actually be ideal for this set up , or SET on top ( Lamm of course lol) and m1.2 on bass?

This is where it gets very tricky with reproduction speakers. You don't know who's making the cabinets the horns and worse of all the crossover, I've heard way too many of these project speakers with disastrous sound to recommend them. For a lot less money I recommend getting yourself an original VOTT listen to it for a period time and then upgrade the crossover if you wanted without changing the balance and leave the rest alone. As a rule none of the vintage horns sound their best with ss amplification including the Lamms. With the VOTT best overall result are with a 30w-50w push/tube amp, for SET friendly look at same era JBL, Vitavox or of course Siemens theater speakers.

david
 
Yes, I thought that Tannoys of that design have a fat "romantic" 1950's kind of sound. The type of sound that makes you feel old. I think this is because people take advantage of the high sensitivity and pair it with tiny SET's. The ONE time I heard it with a bit of power from a SS amp, it actually lost a lot of its fat coloration and became much more neutral, although some of the coloration was still there. What impressed me the most was its lifelike dynamics - not too constrained (like most box speakers) and not over-the-top (like some horns). The other thing I liked was its imaging. Here is a speaker that gives you the advantage of horns (dynamics) without the downsides (poor imaging and unrealistic soundstage). The trade-off is its heavily coloured sound, which you may or may not like.

Good description, but as with everything in Audio, some people love this sound
 
Good description, but as with everything in Audio, some people love this sound

A lot of people also don't know any better they go with what they read somewhere. That colored sound becomes old very quickly and you see people tweaking the cabinets, crossovers, wiring etc. before making it all sound like $hit before dumping it on ebay because they were underdriving the speaker to begin with. You don't need ss there are plenty of great sounding 50w-100w tube amps that will make them sing.

david
 
Yes, I thought that Tannoys of that design have a fat "romantic" 1950's kind of sound. The type of sound that makes you feel old. I think this is because people take advantage of the high sensitivity and pair it with tiny SET's. The ONE time I heard it with a bit of power from a SS amp, it actually lost a lot of its fat coloration and became much more neutral, although some of the coloration was still there. What impressed me the most was its lifelike dynamics - not too constrained (like most box speakers) and not over-the-top (like some horns). The other thing I liked was its imaging. Here is a speaker that gives you the advantage of horns (dynamics) without the downsides (poor imaging and unrealistic soundstage). The trade-off is its heavily coloured sound, which you may or may not like.

Unfortunately you haven't heard good horns Keith, what you describe is stereotypical of poorly designed horn speakers which there are plenty of or good ones driven with the wrong electronics. As much as I love vintage Tannoys they can't just can't match the dynamics of good horns.

david
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing