Great article on "Analogue Warmth"

[bonzo75]

Oh good grief. I have been away from the thread for a day or so and come back to Blizz drawing parallels with himself and Steve Jobs - oh dear!

Maybe he is right, as I don't think Steve Jobs had experience with hifi gear either

 

[RayDunzl]

Maybe he is right, as I don't think Steve Jobs had experience with hifi gear either

Maybe a little:

http://www.wired.com/2014/04/steve-jobs-stereo-system/#slide-1

 

[Blizzard]

Oh good grief. I have been away from the thread for a day or so and come back to Blizz drawing parallels with himself and Steve Jobs - oh dear!

Out of morbid curiosity, what did your market research tell you about the market being interested and receptive to this "innovative" product? It seems to have a lukewarm reception here and pros are already catered for. The iPod / mass market brigade aren't going to be interested in anything but the new Beats of something alike. Therefore I am curious what your market segmentation plan looks like and where you feel you will sell this.

I'm definitely not going to base the reception on the opinion of 3-4 analog fans who have absolutely no idea how this technology works or will sound. Basically this would appeal to the same crowd as the Devialet, as well as the analog guys who actually listen to it, and who buy audio gear for the sound, not just the shiny glass tubes. Vinyl fans will be out of luck though, because vinyl would have to sound better than the DSP/DAC for me to have a phono stage on it. Not gonna happen It's going to be idiot proof so there's no way it can sound bad.

 

[Detlof]

Are we not well on the way to play back outperforming recording source any way? If so all this is bollocks

spazmatron,

Everybody agrees when we request something that does not exist. We disagree as soon we look for its practical existence. "Humble" and "worship of truth" are just nice words to mean something that does not disturb our own perception of the music. Just MHO.

But, then, no matter what words we use for it and in what spelling, isn't "our own perception of the music" the only thing that counts?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I'm definitely not going to base the reception on the opinion of 3-4 analog fans who have absolutely no idea how this technology works or will sound. Basically this would appeal to the same crowd as the Devialet, as well as the analog guys who actually listen to it, and who buy audio gear for the sound, not just the shiny glass tubes. Vinyl fans will be out of luck though, because vinyl would have to sound better than the DSP/DAC for me to have a phono stage on it. Not gonna happen It's going to be idiot proof so there's no way it can sound bad.

Wow so it will appeal to the Devialet crowd and analog guys and those that buy gear for the sound. Well - I think you might need to revisit your market segmentation exercise there, Blizz. Lol.

Fwiw - I went down the Devialet route so embraced "innovation" if you can call it that. The sound was mediocre to me - very clean but cold and unrealistic. Timbre of instruments was way off in my system. I managed to get it vaguely acceptable with a huge amount drc via Acourate but when the latter was applied, it still left me wanting.

Btw - why would you not install an AD converter? Surely you would be as well installing a chip that converts analogue to double or quad dsd before you process it in your amp?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gotta love Blizz. A leading tube amp expert tells him in no uncertain terms the boutique tube signature option can't work/won't work.
Blizz pretty much lets the comment pass, and keeps in a circular fashion repeating the mantra ANY signature can be sampled and replicated.
Waiting for that FedEx package to land on my doorstep.
Since it seems 2016 is THE year this will all happen (33 years after "perfect sound forever" was promised), I'll remain patient for 24 months - all of 2016 for the tech to become available, all of 2017 for Blizz to make the box, sample the tubes, pop it all in a bigger cardboard box, and send it over The Pond to me.

 

[Gregadd]

They need to resurrect Steve Jobs. They lost the vision. Although ipad and iphone sales aren't doing too bad.

They were doing much better in the 90's when led by the status quo followers. I bet if Steve was still alive, and I knew him, he would most likely tell me to be original and build another tube amp. Not enough of them out there

View attachment 24546

He'd certainly be into vinyl and turntables. He reminds of Kevin Costner,the actor He has some colossal failures. He takes chances. It doeds not matter how great you are eventually your greatness will become the standard rather than the exception..

 

[Groucho]

ANY signature can be sampled and replicated.

I think it can... sort of. I can feed test signals of some sort into an amp when driving a test load, and I can record what happens to the signal. But here are the caveats:
1. The amp's 'signature' that the fans love so much is inextricably linked with its dynamic interaction with the speaker. This includes what the amp does when the volume is low, when high, what it does with transients. The voltage and/or current we record is only 'valid' with that speaker after its voice coil has warmed to the temperature it is during "the sweep", the ambient temperature affecting the speaker's mechanical parameters and so on. Feed the same voltages into a different speaker, or even the same one at a different temperature, and the result won't replicate what the amp would do with the new speaker. We could test at all temperatures with all models of speaker and then feed in the ambient temperature, voice coil temp etc. into the model during playback, but is this not getting out of hand somewhat? Also, simple tolerances and variations between the same model of speaker would invalidate our model.
2. No "sweep" can record everything about the amplifier. It will need to be more than just steady tones, or white noise etc. The result cannot just be a simple 2D lookup table, but must incorporate a window of previous samples in order to approximate the dynamic behaviour of the amplifier interpolated from, effectively, a hypersurface.
3. I think that with valve amps there is another factor: microphony, that is room dependent and so cannot practically be duplicated in a software simulator.

 

[Gregadd]

Mioropstrip I while i do not always agree with your post they are always well thought out and researched. I feel no need to comment. I'm glasd you are here. Happy new year! t

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I'm definitely not going to base the reception on the opinion of 3-4 analog fans who have absolutely no idea how this technology works or will sound. Basically this would appeal to the same crowd as the Devialet, as well as the analog guys who actually listen to it, and who buy audio gear for the sound, not just the shiny glass tubes. Vinyl fans will be out of luck though, because vinyl would have to sound better than the DSP/DAC for me to have a phono stage on it. Not gonna happen It's going to be idiot proof so there's no way it can sound bad.

Market research would be a good idea, Blizz. Doesn't mean you shouldn't innovate, but you should know who would buy the product, why, and for how much. Audiophiles, I'd guess, are not your market; mostly luddites who will make a face at the concept alone, and dismiss it out of hand. Just look at how poorly other innovations from the pro side have traveled to the high end to get an idea. Mainstream market music lovers? In America, at least, they don't seem to have much interest in high quality audio outside of a headphone upgrade for their iPhones or a better bluetooth player. That's not wrong, it's just the way it is. Or at least the way it appears to be. But that's a gut feel; it's a gut feel based on a career spent in strategic marketing, but still just a gut feel. Finding out who your market is, what would motivate them to buy, and at what price point? There is no substitute for that.

Tim

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think it can... sort of. I can feed test signals of some sort into an amp when driving a test load, and I can record what happens to the signal. But here are the caveats:
1. The amp's 'signature' that the fans love so much is inextricably linked with its dynamic interaction with the speaker. This includes what the amp does when the volume is low, when high, what it does with transients. The voltage and/or current we record is only 'valid' with that speaker after its voice coil has warmed to the temperature it is during "the sweep", the ambient temperature affecting the speaker's mechanical parameters and so on. Feed the same voltages into a different speaker, or even the same one at a different temperature, and the result won't replicate what the amp would do with the new speaker. We could test at all temperatures with all models of speaker and then feed in the ambient temperature, voice coil temp etc. into the model during playback, but is this not getting out of hand somewhat? Also, simple tolerances and variations between the same model of speaker would invalidate our model.
2. No "sweep" can record everything about the amplifier. It will need to be more than just steady tones, or white noise etc. The result cannot just be a simple 2D lookup table, but must incorporate a window of previous samples in order to approximate the dynamic behaviour of the amplifier interpolated from, effectively, a hypersurface.
3. I think that with valve amps there is another factor: microphony, that is room dependent and so cannot practically be duplicated in a software simulator.

Good post, Groucho - I concur! I have been telling Blizz point number 1 regarding dynamic interaction with the speaker a few days back but you expanded on my point with many others. He says that his measurements will be conducted when the amp is @ "optimum" condition under static load - of course this means that the emulation is nothing of the sort. He says that it is "better" but that misses the entire point - people don't buy SETs for precise measurements - euphonic distortion is part of the sonic signature.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Market research would be a good idea, Blizz. Doesn't mean you shouldn't innovate, but you should know who would buy the product, why, and for how much. Audiophiles, I'd guess, are not your market; mostly luddites who will make a face at the concept alone, and dismiss it out of hand. Just look at how poorly other innovations from the pro side have traveled to the high end to get an idea. Mainstream market music lovers? In America, at least, they don't seem to have much interest in high quality audio outside of a headphone upgrade for their iPhones or a better bluetooth player. That's not wrong, it's just the way it is. Or at least the way it appears to be. But that's a gut feel; it's a gut feel based on a career spent in strategic marketing, but still just a gut feel. Finding out who your market is, what would motivate them to buy, and at what price point? There is no substitute for that.

Tim

Absolutely Ponk - I think it has fallen on deaf ears though judging by the response to my same suggestion.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think it can... sort of. I can feed test signals of some sort into an amp when driving a test load, and I can record what happens to the signal. But here are the caveats:
1. The amp's 'signature' that the fans love so much is inextricably linked with its dynamic interaction with the speaker. This includes what the amp does when the volume is low, when high, what it does with transients. The voltage and/or current we record is only 'valid' with that speaker after its voice coil has warmed to the temperature it is during "the sweep", the ambient temperature affecting the speaker's mechanical parameters and so on. Feed the same voltages into a different speaker, or even the same one at a different temperature, and the result won't replicate what the amp would do with the new speaker. We could test at all temperatures with all models of speaker and then feed in the ambient temperature, voice coil temp etc. into the model during playback, but is this not getting out of hand somewhat? Also, simple tolerances and variations between the same model of speaker would invalidate our model.
2. No "sweep" can record everything about the amplifier. It will need to be more than just steady tones, or white noise etc. The result cannot just be a simple 2D lookup table, but must incorporate a window of previous samples in order to approximate the dynamic behaviour of the amplifier interpolated from, effectively, a hypersurface.
3. I think that with valve amps there is another factor: microphony, that is room dependent and so cannot practically be duplicated in a software simulator.

The interaction between speakers and amplifiers can be modeled as well, and this is done in modeling guitar amps. This is the weakest link, though. I can create a pre-set that plays a small, low-gain, low watt amp through a 4 x 12 stack, and that definitely gives me another color, another variable to work with that can be interesting and useful, but you can't produce the sound and feel of 4 12" speakers with a 1x12 combo amp, no matter how good the modeling is. But the impact upon the electronics from different speaker loads? That can and is modeled all the time and all you have to do is point, click and listen. It's just not done in this hobby.

Tim

 

[Audiophile Bill]

There seems to be a issue for me at least with blizzards idea.. As imo leads and interconnects and plugs and sockets.. And isolation and power all have a massive impact on the music I at least hear how would your idea work? As one amp may give a sound at one place that's captured then posted as a filter or what ever for others to transplant but that transplant my give a end result that very different to the one that would be achieved with the native amp in their set up.

So your at home with blizzards device thinking your hearing this or that amp emulation when In fact the real thing might sound very different in your system.

So what's the point trying to emulate amps? Change sound make it what you want yes but amp emulation is impossible?

Exactly right Spaz. His emulation will be nothing of the sort I am afraid for the reasons I have put forth about dynamic speaker load but also the additional cogent points from Groucho. It might still sound good but not an emulation. Blizz will post the same as before - that it will be "better" which obviously misses the point of the word "emulation."

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The interaction between speakers and amplifiers can be modeled as well, and this is done in modeling guitar amps. This is the weakest link, though. I can create a pre-set that plays a small, low-gain, low watt amp through a 4 x 12 stack, and that definitely gives me another color, another variable to work with that can be interesting and useful, but you can't produce the sound and feel of 4 12" speakers with a 1x12 combo amp, no matter how good the modeling is. But the impact upon the electronics from different speaker loads? That can and is modeled all the time and all you have to do is point, click and listen. It's just not done in this hobby.

Tim

Hi Tim,

How close is the emulation of the small, low gain, low watt amp to actually having said a pin the chain?

To achieve the dynamic modelling with sufficient fidelity, you would surely need a very complex multi-parameter model for all the speakers that the amp would be used with, which is clearly not commercially viable. The process involves recording the analogue outputs of these amplifiers.

 

[spiritofmusic]

As said, just what is the market for this thing?
Ironically as one of it's biggest skeptics...me!
I have posted on many threads how I'm now married to the SET concept, and hence been told not to have extra-marital affairs w/spkrs like Giya, Rockport, Apogee, JBL Everest, because the demands will be compromising (Lord knows where this analogy could end up!).
So, for me, a SET emulation amp, identical in all aspects to my Nats, but able to drive critical loads all day long, would be just so perfect.
There will of course be others.
But probably not enough to make it a healthy sustaining market.
A'philes at large are more into their SS, hence this market already covered.
And casual listeners/iPod generation, forget about it.
No, it'll be selling to the skeptical, prob a tricky business proposition.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

As said, just what is the market for this thing?
Ironically as one of it's biggest skeptics...me!
I have posted on many threads how I'm now married to the SET concept, and hence been told not to have extra-marital affairs w/spkrs like Giya, Rockport, Apogee, JBL Everest, because the demands will be compromising (Lord knows where this analogy could end up!).
So, for me, a SET emulation amp, identical in all aspects to my Nats, but able to drive critical loads all day long, would be just so perfect.
There will of course be others.
But probably enough to make it a healthy sustaining market.
A'philes at large are more into their SS, hence this market already covered.
And casual listeners/iPod generation, forget about it.
No, it'll be selling to the skeptical, prob a tricky business proposition.

Well according to the designer:

"The Devialet crowd AND analog guys AND those that buy gear for the sound."

In all seriousness though, to not be able to clearly define your target customer is an elementary business error of substantial proportions.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Spaz, already covered this - the big boys will churn out their so-called Hypex Class D "transparent" (yeah, right!) boxes, and a whole slew of apps for brand/tube signatures. Mix'n'match until you get indigestion. And there will be no room for anyone else.
Hmm, as Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic Park (the first/best one), "life, uh, finds a way".

 

[microstrip]

The DSP experts can not solve simple problems, such as making a $500 DAC sound as a Vivaldi combo, why should we expect them to solve complex problems such as emulating a power amplifier in a reasonable time scale?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I like blizzard but for now I think I will stick to just listening to a variety of amps in my house and buying the one I like most. Works for me. its a fun novelty idea no more than that.

The big problem to me at least is..
If this works and is perfect what sane person would bother with trying to make products that sound better anymore as after they invest millions or at least thousands in development blizzard comes along and copies the sound and sells it for less. The whole industry will collapse... Net result of this is less incentive to develop and ultimately worse sound for us as a result.


Idea for blizzard is focus on emulating headphone amps. Market it with a few settings for known headphone. Big market easier to get into. Less resistance from the industry. Plus cables and such are more universal in this area... Job done.

No no no. Blizz will clone himself into a whole series of himself, in direct competition w/himself, making better and better versions of the same thing, although quite how you go more transparent than the most transparent amp, and more identical than the most identical emulation, I haven't the foggiest.