Grounding Boxes

[heihei]

Thanks for the replies all.

I read a lot of "they work in my system" but from a scientific perspective I don't see anything beyond my original assertion that the only beneficial impact they have is creating a common earth.

For those that use CAD, Entreq etc. and believe it to be beneficial, has anyone compared the results to simply connecting everything together and to a solid earthing point using some copper wire?

 

[justubes]

Yes, as my post i have done that.

These boxes do have effect, as a sink or piezo electric effect even when there is a star ground establishes.

These solutions all sound difference, even different models in the same connection configuration leads to a different presentation.

So there is more than just star gounding, which you have to get right. Different locations grounded also has a different sonic impact.

Once the correct star, or multiple grounds are tested and established as the most beneficial sonically, removing the ground box will leads to it having less impact, with the star ground re-established, but only without the box but linking all connections as one.

How i see these solutions is partially a convenient way to establish this star grounding, which on its own can have a rather good outcome.

Adding the boxes is an extension, sort of boosting it by other means.

Next, different ground cables again have a different effect, so you need to work with all these parameters.

None are more important than the other.

With the box as a sink, somehow, vibration control or tuning again affects the sounds but do not claim to understand this part.

 

[heihei]

Yes, as my post i have done that.

These boxes do have effect, as a sink or piezo electric effect even when there is a star ground establishes.

These solutions all sound difference, even different models in the same connection configuration leads to a different presentation.

So there is more than just star gounding, which you have to get right. Different locations grounded also has a different sonic impact.

Once the correct star, or multiple grounds are tested and established as the most beneficial sonically, removing the ground box will leads to it having less impact, with the star ground re-established, but only without the box but linking all connections as one.

How i see these solutions is partially a convenient way to establish this star grounding, which on its own can have a rather good outcome.

Adding the boxes is an extension, sort of boosting it by other means.

Next, different ground cables again have a different effect, so you need to work with all these parameters.

None are more important than the other.

With the box as a sink, somehow, vibration control or tuning again affects the sounds but do not claim to understand this part.

Thanks - great insight and the most valuable thing I've read on this subject. I wonder whether the boxes have an impact of the stability of the earth - we know that ground / earth is often not zero and can fluctuate, so it would seem possible that a big box of "stuff" (and the bigger the better) adds stability.

The idea of stability would be supported by those who have heard benefits from using an external earth buried deep into the ground. It would be interesting to see how this plus star grounding compares to the use of boxes.

 

[justubes]

I have not been able to test how low the ground is as opposes to a true 0v ground reference. I do find it contributes to better separation in the sound and overall clarity.

It looks to be that all equipment will be causing some small voltage in the ground potential.

As i already have a dedicated line and ground rod to earth, so i did invest in the Telos ground noise reducer with was developed and tested and specifically targeted to reduce and lower this voltage potential.

But if the ground is shared with all you other appliances in your home. It may take more to deal with this issue or worst, the effectiveness if yiu stay it an apartment with a common ground with say 40 other apartment units, this may not be very effective.

I spent days connecting various grounding schemes and every single permutation sounded different some ground connections where barely noticeable.

It ends up i like it with my preamp grounded with 4 different ground connections, 2 signal as well as 2 chassis ground, the 4th chassis connection was the biggest contributor to the sound and i like the sound as it is. So that will stay regardless of some claiming it will cause a ground loop.

Every device contributes to the sound, any 1 cable drops off, i hear and know something is missing.

Grounding currently consist of Troy Sig with 6 std silver cables, 2 FMR EE ground. Entreq Atlantis, Tellus 2 and Olympus with 4 Atlantis ground (1 being infinity), 4 Apollo ground and 1 silver.

1 Telos GNR mini v3. 1 with 8 ground cables.

1Taiko Setchi D2 usb to streamer.

1 Synergistic grounding block with 4 HD cables and a couple of standard ones with some Neotech Silver wire with 1 no brand ground box for the network.

The quality of cables are paramount to the effectiveness of ground boxes and have each a sonic character which can be very different and also carefully selected.

I have tested other most of the models of the Entreq ground boxes ( not the new range thou) but did not like what the did to the sound.

Each brand also does something different and are complementary to the overall effectiveness and sound.

 

[Folsom]

The thread is (inadvertently) talking about “ground boxes” as though they are all the same topology / approach other than Telos.
They are a mixed breed of devices. The Entreq device itself can be seen as an antenna based based on the data above in this thread in the Audiosciencereview and the way it works. Other devices aren’t necessarily antennas as they can also be connected to ground themselves rather than the Entreq floating topology.

Yes it is possible for a device to be different if it is connected to something. But we don’t necessarily know what without testing.

 

[Folsom]

Thanks - great insight and the most valuable thing I've read on this subject. I wonder whether the boxes have an impact of the stability of the earth - we know that ground / earth is often not zero and can fluctuate, so it would seem possible that a big box of "stuff" (and the bigger the better) adds stability.

The idea of stability would be supported by those who have heard benefits from using an external earth buried deep into the ground. It would be interesting to see how this plus star grounding compares to the use of boxes.

No, it’s fact it doesn’t add any stability. Zero mystery there. It might make the sound more consistent for some, but it has nothing to do with stability of the earth ground rod. The earth rod is basically a noise source anyways. The reason you want it to be lower resistance is so it’s less of a noise source.

And FYI ground and neutral are tied together in your circuit breaker box.

 

[Silverdale]

Hi There

This is my first post, making the assumption that the ground box lowers the noise floor and the noise floor varies from place to place, system to system. Would I be right in thinking that if the noise floor was low anyway, would you be wasting money on a ground box system, better to spend on a nonground box cable?

I'm wondering how I can test the noise amount, thinking if I got a blank digital track and turned the volume up, would what I hear be what I could pay to reduce via ground boxes.

Our flat is only 20 yards from the Substation so wondering if there will be much to gain.

I'm in the market for a new cable and Entreq is on the list.

Thanks for any thoughs

 

[microstrip]

And FYI ground and neutral are tied together in your circuit breaker box.

Not in every country - in most European countries ground and neutral are only tied at the last electrical substation. The system is intrinsically more interesting concerning elimination of common mode noise noise than in the US.

 

[Folsom]

Not in every country - in most European countries ground and neutral are only tied at the last electrical substation. The system is intrinsically more interesting concerning elimination of common mode noise noise than in the US.

Weird.

 

[Folsom]

Hi There

This is my first post, making the assumption that the ground box lowers the noise floor and the noise floor varies from place to place, system to system. Would I be right in thinking that if the noise floor was low anyway, would you be wasting money on a ground box system, better to spend on a nonground box cable?

I'm wondering how I can test the noise amount, thinking if I got a blank digital track and turned the volume up, would what I hear be what I could pay to reduce via ground boxes.

Our flat is only 20 yards from the Substation so wondering if there will be much to gain.

I'm in the market for a new cable and Entreq is on the list.

Thanks for any thoughs

No they don’t lower the noise floor. And no cranking up the volume on a blank track wouldn’t tell you squat. If no amplification is happening the noise isnt necessarily entering the signal path; besides that the noise isn’t in addition to your music, it aberates your music so it is the music.

If you want to measure noise you must start with a much deeper understanding of electronics so you’ll even understand how to so it.

 

[justubes]

Yes it is possible for a device to be different if it is connected to something. But we don’t necessarily know what without testing.

Looking at the anteanna

The thread is (inadvertently) talking about “ground boxes” as though they are all the same topology / approach other than Telos.
They are a mixed breed of devices. The Entreq device itself can be seen as an antenna based based on the data above in this thread in the Audiosciencereview and the way it works. Other devices aren’t necessarily antennas as they can also be connected to ground themselves rather than the Entreq floating topology.

Looking at the preposition that the Ground cables are indeed "extra" antennas, as is the powercords and all interconnects and equipment chassis, these all go to ground eventually.

I believe this grounding tweaks are more than just have a ground per se, but the materials connected to ground all have an influence to the sound.

I missed out that i also have the ASI grounding cables which are said to be a mix of different metals of copper, gold and silver. They connect to a ground point and the other end nothing! But it clearly changes the sound.

Bringing this topic deeper that just grounding boxes, a quality (mainly pure silver) which has less resistance and sonically better, or different sounding when used as grounding in powercords and interconnects.

I find it have better clarty and details with tighter or lighter bass.

Mostly, i do not use any interconnects with silver, but do have digital and clock cables with have a silver plated braid for my front end. I just occured to me penning this down that i did find that silver ground to the pre and monos recently made a big improvement and in my recollection maybe a bigger difference than grounding the front end which i have the Entreq cables which gave a smoother and less digital sound.

Now, with some 99.99 ebay dead soft silver or the Tripoint silver cables have a very direct, detailed and clear sound, more so than the Entreqs which i find softer or warmer which i found more suited for front end digital and not as effective for my pre or amps.

Adding these to the front end did not have such impact that i could easily or reliably hear, but grounded on the pre and amps the uptick of clarity was just another significant level up.

Could this be because these ground cables are improving the less effective grounds in my Goebel interconnects from preamp to amps, i believe this may be so, the improvement using Argento FMR Extreme Edition was just spectacular, but cost as much as the the Goebel interconnects!

The openess and what i find hard to describe in writing imparted such "Pureness" in clarity in the upper registers never encounted before, together with deep bass.

Not only a layer of glass had been lifted, but as if layer of highest quality sapphire crystal had been lifted, revealing such purity with no glare, brightness or sharpness etc... whatsover.

It does so which other pure silver ground cables cannot remotely approach, making them sound blurry, tubey and warm.

The Argento ground cables are a totally different tier over and above the other silver ground cables in pristine clarity!

I do however prefer the vocals with more warmth and not with such clarity to the midrange, losing some emotion in vocals and mid weight compared to either Tripoints or the Entreqs i have on hand.

It is a first that i could think or describe and would easily mistake the competitors silver cables to sound like as if they were copper, if i did a double blind test.

If you thought 10/10 vision is good, we are taking 20/10 clarity here with the Argento FMR EE which are also made of silver.

So this showed me that the ground boxes are just 1 part the equation and could well be pointless to be discussed alone based on my tests just 2 weeks ago.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Looking at the anteanna

Looking at the preposition that the Ground cables are indeed "extra" antennas, as is the powercords and all interconnects and equipment chassis, these all go to ground eventually.

I believe this grounding tweaks are more than just have a ground per se, but the materials connected to ground all have an influence to the sound.

I missed out that i also have the ASI grounding cables which are said to be a mix of different metals of copper, gold and silver. They connect to a ground point and the other end nothing! But it clearly changes the sound.

Bringing this topic deeper that just grounding boxes, a quality (mainly pure silver) which has less resistance and sonically better, or different sounding when used as grounding in powercords and interconnects.

I find it have better clarty and details with tighter or lighter bass.

Mostly, i do not use any interconnects with silver, but do have digital and clock cables with have a silver plated braid for my front end. I just occured to me penning this down that i did find that silver ground to the pre and monos recently made a big improvement and in my recollection maybe a bigger difference than grounding the front end which i have the Entreq cables which gave a smoother and less digital sound.

Now, with some 99.99 ebay dead soft silver or the Tripoint silver cables have a very direct, detailed and clear sound, more so than the Entreqs which i find softer or warmer which i found more suited for front end digital and not as effective for my pre or amps.

Adding these to the front end did not have such impact that i could easily or reliably hear, but grounded on the pre and amps the uptick of clarity was just another significant level up.

Could this be because these ground cables are improving the less effective grounds in my Goebel interconnects from preamp to amps, i believe this may be so, the improvement using Argento FMR Extreme Edition was just spectacular, but cost as much as the the Goebel interconnects!

The openess and what i find hard to describe in writing imparted such "Pureness" in clarity in the upper registers never encounted before, together with deep bass.

Not only a layer of glass had been lifted, but as if layer of highest quality sapphire crystal had been lifted, revealing such purity with no glare, brightness or sharpness etc... whatsover.

It does so which other pure silver ground cables cannot remotely approach, making them sound blurry, tubey and warm.

The Argento ground cables are a totally different tier over and above the other silver ground cables in pristine clarity!

I do however prefer the vocals with more warmth and not with such clarity to the midrange, losing some emotion in vocals and mid weight compared to either Tripoints or the Entreqs i have on hand.

It is a first that i could think or describe and would easily mistake the competitors silver cables to sound like as if they were copper, if i did a double blind test.

If you thought 10/10 vision is good, we are taking 20/10 clarity here with the Argento FMR EE which are also made of silver.

So this showed me that the ground boxes are just 1 part the equation and could well be pointless to be discussed alone based on my tests just 2 weeks ago.

The aerial comment isn’t based on the cables alone but the whacking great slab of bent copper sheet in the wood box suspended within the granules within an Entreq.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Entreq Tellus grounding

I am debating in a year's time trying O. Tellus and the direct mains grounding, but I need house move/new mains/dedicated lines, to be sorted first. I've had ambiguous results adding Atlantis box/Atlantis cables/pwr amp -ve spkr terminal grounding in my system, so I'm not in a major hurry. For...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Barry2013]

Hi There

This is my first post, making the assumption that the ground box lowers the noise floor and the noise floor varies from place to place, system to system. Would I be right in thinking that if the noise floor was low anyway, would you be wasting money on a ground box system, better to spend on a nonground box cable?

I'm wondering how I can test the noise amount, thinking if I got a blank digital track and turned the volume up, would what I hear be what I could pay to reduce via ground boxes.

Our flat is only 20 yards from the Substation so wondering if there will be much to gain.

I'm in the market for a new cable and Entreq is on the list.

Thanks for any thoughs

Hi there
I don't know how the Entreq boxes and cables work but I do know that Per Orloff is no simple Swedish farmer,
My first experience was connecting my CD player to a Minimus box and the improvement was immediate and significant. Greater presence, transparency and more natural. I went on from there.
Now the background of the sound stage is devoid of any noise using analogue and digital sources. It is only when it has gone that you realise it and the extent of the improvement in the sound quality.
IME it is not particularly system dependent so I can certainly recommend that you try it. You should be able to get a free trial.

 

[Silverdale]

Hi there
I don't know how the Entreq boxes and cables work but I do know that Per Orloff is no simple Swedish farmer,
My first experience was connecting my CD player to a Minimus box and the improvement was immediate and significant. Greater presence, transparency and more natural. I went on from there.
Now the background of the sound stage is devoid of any noise using analogue and digital sources. It is only when it has gone that you realise it and the extent of the improvement in the sound quality.
IME it is not particularly system dependent so I can certainly recommend that you try it. You should be able to get a free trial.

Hi All

Many questions and a few thoughts.

I have a diskon ground-box and discover cable between the Amplifier and Dac, they are an "entry-level product" from Entreq.

Barry, did you need grounding on each stage? Power/XLR/Data/XLR/Speaker. How far up the range did you need to go to eliminate the problem and which bit made the biggest difference? I'm guessing the power cable?

Presumably, all the cables in the system, as well as the system its self, are antennas, conductors, and filters at the same time. All cables deal with these 3 things in different ways and to differing levels, relative to personal preference and cost of course. Given that high-end cables and kit often boast neutrality, is this not true given the lack of a ground box in the majority. Or do you think that neutrality can be achieved through exceptional design without a ground box?

Do ground boxes solve a part of the quest for neutrality or are they changing the "contrast of the sound? By neutrality, I mean uncoloured by upstream components.

Regarding the conductor side of the cable, an entry-level groud-box solution would be outperformed on detail by a well designed non-ground box cable from an alternative brand at an equivalent cost, I believe most take the approach of shielding and/or complex weaves to omit interference. Can this be as good if done well, or is this different. As another member stated I don't have the electrical knowledge but would like to better understand if possible.

Buying a ground-box solution seems like deciding on an amplifier for 10k only to buy one for 5k and then rewire the house.

 

[Barry2013]

Hi All

Many questions and a few thoughts.

I have a diskon ground-box and discover cable between the Amplifier and Dac, they are an "entry-level product" from Entreq.

Barry, did you need grounding on each stage? Power/XLR/Data/XLR/Speaker. How far up the range did you need to go to eliminate the problem and which bit made the biggest difference? I'm guessing the power cable?

Presumably, all the cables in the system, as well as the system its self, are antennas, conductors, and filters at the same time. All cables deal with these 3 things in different ways and to differing levels, relative to personal preference and cost of course. Given that high-end cables and kit often boast neutrality, is this not true given the lack of a ground box in the majority. Or do you think that neutrality can be achieved through exceptional design without a ground box?

Do ground boxes solve a part of the quest for neutrality or are they changing the "contrast of the sound? By neutrality, I mean uncoloured by upstream components.

Regarding the conductor side of the cable, an entry-level groud-box solution would be outperformed on detail by a well designed non-ground box cable from an alternative brand at an equivalent cost, I believe most take the approach of shielding and/or complex weaves to omit interference. Can this be as good if done well, or is this different. As another member stated I don't have the electrical knowledge but would like to better understand if possible.

Buying a ground-box solution seems like deciding on an amplifier for 10k only to buy one for 5k and then rewire the house.

Gosh where to start!
My journey with Entreq started at least five years ago and during that time I have tried to keep a balance between Entreq upgrades/additions and upgrades to the rest of the system, an approach I would recommend.
Full details of my current system can be found on my profile apart from the fact that I haven't got round to updating the cartridge which is now one of Unique Audio's Etsurro Bordeaux.Not sure if I added the Apollo Infinity power cable, but will check and update shortly.
The two above were the most recent upgrades along with a second pair of 6922 NOS tubes for the Magnum Dynalab 109T tuner. They were both installed at the same time when my Entreq supplier came with the Apollo Infinity which I had had upgraded from standard Apollo spec.
Once both were installed we switched to BBC Radio 3. It was a live opera broadcast and at that point there was a tenor/soprano duet with very little accompaniment We sat silent for 3/4 minutes with both our jaws dropping at the incredible sound we were hearing. He then very carefully mounted the Bordeaux cartridge on my SME 20/SME V which we then proceeded to listen to. Towards the end of the first track he said "That's what a high end cartridge should sound like." So no assessment of the Apollo Infinity on its own, but further listening with my DCS Scarlatti left me in no doubt that the pc was making a major contribution.
The present Entreq set up has evolved over the last 5/6 years and every upgrade/addition has improved the sound going right back to the first,modest start. So all the sources are grounded including negative speaker terminal grounding on the amp through a Poseidon. I mention that because that made a big difference. The other big diffrence was dual AES Apollo cables from transport to DAC.They are probably the standouts along with the Apollo Infinity. but all the other Entreq applications improved the sound. The negative speaker terminal grounding works with most amps/speakers apart from transformerless designs and I suspect Spectral gear.
IME neutrality is very system dependent and it is not only the cables but all the rest of the system.Cables can and do make a significant contribution but all the other components including the speakers have their own character and there are limits to what the cables alone can do.Again, IME you need to identify the components that speak to your tastes and then refine it with the cables It helps if the speakers are essentially neutral sounding and that is certainly the case with my YG Kipod Signature passives,
My experience of other manufacturers ground boxes is limited simply because I have been satisfied with the Entreq boxes. I did hear some time ago the entry Tripoint, but was not over impressed. The rest of the system didn't grab me so it may have been that rather than the Tripoint which other members speak highly of. That said it is a much more expensive alternative to Entreq.
What Entreq has done for my system more than anything else has been to get rid of all the extraneous noise and resultant distortion which is so prevalent in all but the really high end systems.
I hope that has addressed most if not all of your questions. In summary my experience is that all the Entreq boxes and cables are very good and very good value. They will improve pretty well all systems but they won't turn a sows ear into a silk purse to use and old English saying. Yes they will improve a $3k amp's sound but a good $20k amp will be better and it in turn will,IME, sound better with Entreq.
The really helpful aspect of Entreq is that their dealers will allow you to try them first at no charge. If you don't have an Entreq dealer available Entreq will do likewise and only charge you the cost of the return shipping if you decide not to buy.
I haven't heard the Discovery range but have been told how good they are. I have heard the Konstantins and can strongly recommend them as a more affordable option to the Apollo range which I consider to be the sweetspot in the Entreq ranges.
I hope that is helpful and best wishes for your future audio journey.

 

[Silverdale]

Gosh where to start!
My journey with Entreq started at least five years ago and during that time I have tried to keep a balance between Entreq upgrades/additions and upgrades to the rest of the system, an approach I would recommend.
Full details of my current system can be found on my profile apart from the fact that I haven't got round to updating the cartridge which is now one of Unique Audio's Etsurro Bordeaux.Not sure if I added the Apollo Infinity power cable, but will check and update shortly.
The two above were the most recent upgrades along with a second pair of 6922 NOS tubes for the Magnum Dynalab 109T tuner. They were both installed at the same time when my Entreq supplier came with the Apollo Infinity which I had had upgraded from standard Apollo spec.
Once both were installed we switched to BBC Radio 3. It was a live opera broadcast and at that point there was a tenor/soprano duet with very little accompaniment We sat silent for 3/4 minutes with both our jaws dropping at the incredible sound we were hearing. He then very carefully mounted the Bordeaux cartridge on my SME 20/SME V which we then proceeded to listen to. Towards the end of the first track he said "That's what a high end cartridge should sound like." So no assessment of the Apollo Infinity on its own, but further listening with my DCS Scarlatti left me in no doubt that the pc was making a major contribution.
The present Entreq set up has evolved over the last 5/6 years and every upgrade/addition has improved the sound going right back to the first,modest start. So all the sources are grounded including negative speaker terminal grounding on the amp through a Poseidon. I mention that because that made a big difference. The other big diffrence was dual AES Apollo cables from transport to DAC.They are probably the standouts along with the Apollo Infinity. but all the other Entreq applications improved the sound. The negative speaker terminal grounding works with most amps/speakers apart from transformerless designs and I suspect Spectral gear.
IME neutrality is very system dependent and it is not only the cables but all the rest of the system.Cables can and do make a significant contribution but all the other components including the speakers have their own character and there are limits to what the cables alone can do.Again, IME you need to identify the components that speak to your tastes and then refine it with the cables It helps if the speakers are essentially neutral sounding and that is certainly the case with my YG Kipod Signature passives,
My experience of other manufacturers ground boxes is limited simply because I have been satisfied with the Entreq boxes. I did hear some time ago the entry Tripoint, but was not over impressed. The rest of the system didn't grab me so it may have been that rather than the Tripoint which other members speak highly of. That said it is a much more expensive alternative to Entreq.
What Entreq has done for my system more than anything else has been to get rid of all the extraneous noise and resultant distortion which is so prevalent in all but the really high end systems.
I hope that has addressed most if not all of your questions. In summary my experience is that all the Entreq boxes and cables are very good and very good value. They will improve pretty well all systems but they won't turn a sows ear into a silk purse to use and old English saying. Yes they will improve a $3k amp's sound but a good $20k amp will be better and it in turn will,IME, sound better with Entreq.
The really helpful aspect of Entreq is that their dealers will allow you to try them first at no charge. If you don't have an Entreq dealer available Entreq will do likewise and only charge you the cost of the return shipping if you decide not to buy.
I haven't heard the Discovery range but have been told how good they are. I have heard the Konstantins and can strongly recommend them as a more affordable option to the Apollo range which I consider to be the sweetspot in the Entreq ranges.
I hope that is helpful and best wishes for your future audio journey.

 

[Silverdale]

Gosh where to start!
My journey with Entreq started at least five years ago and during that time I have tried to keep a balance between Entreq upgrades/additions and upgrades to the rest of the system, an approach I would recommend.
Full details of my current system can be found on my profile apart from the fact that I haven't got round to updating the cartridge which is now one of Unique Audio's Etsurro Bordeaux.Not sure if I added the Apollo Infinity power cable, but will check and update shortly.
The two above were the most recent upgrades along with a second pair of 6922 NOS tubes for the Magnum Dynalab 109T tuner. They were both installed at the same time when my Entreq supplier came with the Apollo Infinity which I had had upgraded from standard Apollo spec.
Once both were installed we switched to BBC Radio 3. It was a live opera broadcast and at that point there was a tenor/soprano duet with very little accompaniment We sat silent for 3/4 minutes with both our jaws dropping at the incredible sound we were hearing. He then very carefully mounted the Bordeaux cartridge on my SME 20/SME V which we then proceeded to listen to. Towards the end of the first track he said "That's what a high end cartridge should sound like." So no assessment of the Apollo Infinity on its own, but further listening with my DCS Scarlatti left me in no doubt that the pc was making a major contribution.
The present Entreq set up has evolved over the last 5/6 years and every upgrade/addition has improved the sound going right back to the first,modest start. So all the sources are grounded including negative speaker terminal grounding on the amp through a Poseidon. I mention that because that made a big difference. The other big diffrence was dual AES Apollo cables from transport to DAC.They are probably the standouts along with the Apollo Infinity. but all the other Entreq applications improved the sound. The negative speaker terminal grounding works with most amps/speakers apart from transformerless designs and I suspect Spectral gear.
IME neutrality is very system dependent and it is not only the cables but all the rest of the system.Cables can and do make a significant contribution but all the other components including the speakers have their own character and there are limits to what the cables alone can do.Again, IME you need to identify the components that speak to your tastes and then refine it with the cables It helps if the speakers are essentially neutral sounding and that is certainly the case with my YG Kipod Signature passives,
My experience of other manufacturers ground boxes is limited simply because I have been satisfied with the Entreq boxes. I did hear some time ago the entry Tripoint, but was not over impressed. The rest of the system didn't grab me so it may have been that rather than the Tripoint which other members speak highly of. That said it is a much more expensive alternative to Entreq.
What Entreq has done for my system more than anything else has been to get rid of all the extraneous noise and resultant distortion which is so prevalent in all but the really high end systems.
I hope that has addressed most if not all of your questions. In summary my experience is that all the Entreq boxes and cables are very good and very good value. They will improve pretty well all systems but they won't turn a sows ear into a silk purse to use and old English saying. Yes they will improve a $3k amp's sound but a good $20k amp will be better and it in turn will,IME, sound better with Entreq.
The really helpful aspect of Entreq is that their dealers will allow you to try them first at no charge. If you don't have an Entreq dealer available Entreq will do likewise and only charge you the cost of the return shipping if you decide not to buy.
I haven't heard the Discovery range but have been told how good they are. I have heard the Konstantins and can strongly recommend them as a more affordable option to the Apollo range which I consider to be the sweetspot in the Entreq ranges.
I hope that is helpful and best wishes for your future audio journey.

Thank you for sharing your experience, really interesting to see the route you have taken.

That's a wonderful system, not a hugely dissimilar route to the one I've been taking.

The discover is indeed a very good cable, I'm not sure the little ground box makes a difference when connected at least not immediately, maybe the newer DCS range is far less susceptible or possibly going further up the grounding range, would offer a more obvious difference.

If it's system dependent, perhaps I don't have such a problem, but I have the same amp as you and a similar DAC. It does seem the case that the highest category of kit is far less susceptible to the problem, I wonder if the problem is geographic as well.

Presumably, a ground box solution doesn't use cable shielding and weaving in the cable run in quite the same way, the ground box solves this problem in a different way.

I was wondering the same as Heihei, would connecting the ground-box cable to a series of solid earth rods essentially do the same job as connecting to a box, I'm assuming the ground box-cable is not connected to 240v earth or even the signal ground.

​

 

[Barry2013]

Thank you for sharing your experience, really interesting to see the route you have taken.

That's a wonderful system, not a hugely dissimilar route to the one I've been taking.

The discover is indeed a very good cable, I'm not sure the little ground box makes a difference when connected at least not immediately, maybe the newer DCS range is far less susceptible or possibly going further up the grounding range, would offer a more obvious difference.

If it's system dependent, perhaps I don't have such a problem, but I have the same amp as you and a similar DAC. It does seem the case that the highest category of kit is far less susceptible to the problem, I wonder if the problem is geographic as well.

Presumably, a ground box solution doesn't use cable shielding and weaving in the cable run in quite the same way, the ground box solves this problem in a different way.

I was wondering the same as Heihei, would connecting the ground-box cable to a series of solid earth rods essentially do the same job as connecting to a box, I'm assuming the ground box-cable is not connected to 240v earth or even the signal ground.

​

Thank you for your kind remarks on my system Silverdale.
It has taken quite a few years to get to this stage and looking back on the journey I am struck by the fact that it has all been a lot more challenging than I had initially expected. Happily not too many mistakes along the way and those that I did make didn't prove costly, but it really does make a difference to have some knowledgeable and experienced mentors. This forum has been helpful and I now read between lines on reviews. IME the most important part of the job is getting the requisite system synergy which is best done with home trials but that is not always easy.
Now I really don't know the science behind Entreq "grounding", but it has certainly worked for me. I have no experience of using external ground rods so don't know how well they would work with their grounding cables, but other members may be able to help. Per struggles with written English but one of his colleagues is I believe more fluent so you could try dropping them a line. Not sure how the relevant costs and logistics would work out.
Kind regards
Barry

 

[Backpacker]

CAD explains what their boxes do here: http://www.computeraudiodesign.com/CAD_Ground_Control.pdf

In a nutshell, their devices turn high frequency noise into heat. Why attenuating ground plane noise that is far above audible frequencies improves things is not entirely clear. However, the effect ranged from positive to dramatic in every system I have heard them tried in. They seem to have the largest impact on the device with the most high frequency noise. In most systems that will be whatever is feeding a digital stream to the DAC.

I first heard them at Axpona based on a tip from a friend to check them out. The CAD system sounded different (different “better”) than everything else digital at the show including some very high priced stuff. It was so good I had to try one at home.

In my opinion they are essential and I plan to get at least one more. In my system a single CAD ground control connected to the streamer made more difference than a major DAC upgrade (which I was quite happy with).