Half Way To Hell Here In SoCal

[astrotoy]

Hi Steve, my computer has been out of action for the past week or so, and I just saw this thread. Hope you are OK. Global warming is real and California (both southern and northern) have gotten crazy hot temperatures - breaking records regularly. Here in Norcal (where Steve lived for a few years before moving back to SoCal) we got up to 114 degrees in July (not normally our hottest month). Fortunately, we did a big remodel last year and put in metal roof, more solar panels and power walls, heat pumps and double pane windows, so we have been generating more energy than we use (even with charging our Tesla with solar energy). We are participating in a Virtual Power Plant (where many thousand Tesla power wall owners are linked together to sell excess power back to the grid during power emergencies, so they don't have to use the peaker plants as much. We get paid $2 per kilowatt hour for the power. We did this for 4 days this past week selling back about 100 kwhr to the grid over the four days.. There is currently a fire about 20 miles from us, but under control. Our fire insurance was cancelled this year by State Farm (after a previous cancellation by Allstate) and we are now under the California government insurance plan which is about triple the price.

Larry

 

[Holmz]

I wonder what this actually means? If a homeowner does not want to leave his/her house can the police in California drag you out of your own home and hurl you into your car?

Legally they may be they “CAN”… Whether they do or not, who knows.

I don't know what it means in CA, but technically here IIRC you could be arrested for ignoring a mandatory evacuation order. Never heard of that happening, probably because by that point they have better things to do than drag idiots out of their houses. If you stay, it means no emergency response (no ambulance, fire, or police), gas and electricity (also water if lines are impacted) is likely to be cut off, and you are expected to be able to fend for yourself for at least 3 days with no power and no outside help. The official order says three days, but the reality could be much longer, of course.

Potential for being arrested, but in reality the law enforcement and others are pretty busy.
There is not a great deal of time that the coppers want to waste on “Sovereign Citizen” types.
Plus some rural homeowners have equipment and skills and are compelled to try and save their property and livelihood… so the coppers offer the advice, and generally leave here in Australia.

It also legally means that you have been told to evacuate, so by defying that order, then rescue is not something that one is legally entitled to.
And bearing the insurance costs of death and injury likely becomes at risk for defying public safety orders.

If I’m understanding correctly it is a misdemeanor is CA to disobey an evacuation order. But the news can go in and take videos of your house burning so you can watch it on TV. Crazy law …

CA Code

But really, what is the purpose of the law?
One does not have to listen to, nor obey advice… so then instead of a handful of people staying behind, then it becomes lots of people.
You kind of need the threat of law to compel the majority to obey what was formerly just advice.

By having the law, then bodycam footage becomes evidence after the fact to protect the state, as the person approached had violated the law.
I doubt that they are going to arrest say a firefighter type, who on their own time has stayed behind to save their house.
I suspect that it is likely more of a technicality law, but I’m not a lawyer.

Sure they could have a right to stay (freedom), but they do not have a God given right to put others at premeditated risk to come in rescue them… which is what the law likely addresses.

 

[Steve williams]

I wonder what this actually means? If a homeowner does not want to leave his/her house can the police in California drag you out of your own home and hurl you into your car?

I don't know what it means in CA, but technically here IIRC you could be arrested for ignoring a mandatory evacuation order. Never heard of that happening, probably because by that point they have better things to do than drag idiots out of their houses. If you stay, it means no emergency response (no ambulance, fire, or police), gas and electricity (also water if lines are impacted) is likely to be cut off, and you are expected to be able to fend for yourself for at least 3 days with no power and no outside help. The official order says three days, but the reality could be much longer, of course.

If I’m understanding correctly it is a misdemeanor is CA to disobey an evacuation order. But the news can go in and take videos of your house burning so you can watch it on TV. Crazy law …

CA Code

yes to all

and Ron, if the flames were 100 feet from your house, I dont get the reason for your question

 

[Steve williams]

The sheriff drives down your street and using his bull horn and calling a mandatory evacuation, you have 15 minutes to get out

 

[Holmz]

yes to all

and Ron, if the flames were 100 feet from your house, I don’t get the reason for your question

Freedom

The sheriff drives down your street and using his bull horn and calling a mandatory evacuation, you have 15 minutes to get out

If the flamés are 100’ away, one best “get a wriggle on” and change 15 minutes to 15 seconds…

There have been some serious dramas with people delaying and then the smoke is so thick, it is almost impossible to make progress and know whether they driving towards safety or peril.
And the Hawaii example was beset with traffic that looked like the opening scene of an apocalyptic movie. The thread description of “1/2 way to Hell” seems quite appros pos.

 

[Ron Resnick]

and Ron, if the flames were 100 feet from your house

I asked a general question I was curious about; you added this qualifier. Thank you for answering.

I dont get the reason for your question

Now you're asking about my question as though your qualifier was part of my question -- but it wasn't. So you're asking me about a question I didn't ask.

 

[Steve williams]

Well let me simplify without your flowery prose and parsing.


I was astonished that you as an attorney asked a question that quite honestly was well kinda dumb.

Mandatory means that unless you can think of another definition. On Monday a deputy sheriff in his black and white slowly came down our street and issued a warning about evacuation which at that moment was “ voluntary”. However as he slowly passed all houses he stated that if he returns later with a mandatory evacuation ALL RESIDENTS HAVE 15 MINUTES TO DO JUST THAT.

Having said that ask yourself what qualifier do you really think necessary that would prompt said deputy sheriff to return with a Mandatory Evacuation.

From the photos I posted showing how close those houses were to the base of the mountain and the rapidly spreading fire do you really think anyone would defy such notice. My guess is if. one resisted and said no, they aren’t going to write you a ticket for a misdemeanor they would consider you non copis mentis and drag you out of your house to safety
At least that’s how I see it. We were scared $***less hearing that VOLUNTARY evacuation order and what it meant if he returned. We were all packed and ready on a moment’s notice

 

[DonH50]

People forget, or do not realize, just how fast a fire can move, especially driven by high winds (50 to near 100 mph out here) so sometimes people do have literally minutes to get out. I know people to whom that has happened; went from pre-evac to driving away as their house burned with no warning. One of them got to watch over and over because a news copter happened to be filming when the fire crowned, broke across a fire line, and raced through their house in seconds because the wind suddenly shifted. Traumatizing. That was the one that had us on pre-evac, moving what we could to store at a friend's house, and staying up all night watching the flames while praying for a miracle.

Steve, I thought Ron's was an interesting, if academic, question given how resistant to orders people can be. Seems like the question a lawyer would ask, i.e. what are the legal consequences for non-compliance? It comes up every time there's a fire out here and is reported as part of the news stories (why I remembered it). At least it makes clear the consequences if you do elect to stay, and legally exonerates first responders from having to save your (not you your, generic your) dumb butt. We've had cases where people were so worried about their house that they stayed with hoses running to try to keep it from burning. That may prevent embers from setting the roof or siding on fire, but if the body of the fire hits the house it's pissing in the wind. The power and fury of a wildfire is unbelievable. And there is always the "it won't happen to me" attitude.

My guess is the cops would say "fine, you're on your own" and move on to help whom they could rather than wasting time struggling with an idiot. That has happened out here.

That said, where I have read/seen/heard about people ignoring mandatory evacuations is mostly during hurricanes where they figure if the eye wall misses them they'll be OK. Again, I think a lot of folk have just not experienced the real thing to understand how devastating it can be. I've worked a fire line and seen what happens, and been around the aftermath of a hurricane or two, so have a pretty healthy respect for Mother Nature. My Dad was in MS when Katrina tore through, and there were people who survived the hurricane only to die in the aftermath from lack of power, clean water, food, medical care, and so forth.

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." - Heinlein

 

[Holmz]

… do you really think anyone would defy such notice….

I think that you’d be surprised at the percentage obstinate and/or stupid people.
Maybe the percentage is not that high, but one can find a few people who either know better, etc.

The media , en masse, does not help with every storm being presented as “Killer Storm”, which makes it a banality like the boy who cried wolf. Then when there is one that is actually worth preparing for, it is classed as just another media circus.

…
Mandatory means that unless you can think of another definition. On Monday a deputy sheriff in his black and white slowly came down our street and issued a warning about evacuation which at that moment was “ voluntary”. However as he slowly passed all houses he stated that if he returns later with a mandatory evacuation ALL RESIDENTS HAVE 15 MINUTES TO DO JUST THAT.
…

That was pretty good of them to have been given a voluntary notice earlier and more time to load up.
I’d be buying them a donut or coffee if I saw them later.

 

[Steve williams]

As I said we were scared silly. To me there was no option. Who said “ give me liberty or give me death”. All of us had our cars parked out side the garage facing forward (so we could drive right out) and loaded up. It was not a matter of anything but obeying

Yesterday at a local BJ restaurant in Rancho Santa Margarita there were 3 OC Firemen eating and when they got up to leave everyone in that restaurant stood up and applauded

 

[Ron Resnick]

you as an attorney

I went to law school. I worked at a law firm for a couple of years over three decades ago.

 

[DonH50]

As I said we were scared silly. To me there was no option. Who said “ give me liberty or give me death”. All of us had our cars parked out side the garage facing forward (so we could drive right out) and loaded up. It was not a matter of anything but obeying

Yesterday at a local BJ restaurant in Rancho Santa Margarita there were 3 OC Firemen eating and when they got up to leave everyone in that restaurant stood up and applauded

Patrick Henry

Sane people do sane things. Note ash is corrosive, hose off the cars.

Awesome to recognize firefighters, it happens too rarely.

 

[Solartiger]

How long does it take for the grass, scrubs etc on those hills to come back?

 

[Holmz]

How long does it take for the grass, scrubs etc on those hills to come back?

Historically the fires are late in teh summer, and then I am not sure what the scorched earth recovery rate is, but the rains and cool whether sort of arrive well before the new shouts can get any depth to hold the soil together.

It would be remiss of me not to share the song that sparked in my mind reading about this, from the 45 year old SoCal “old school punk” band and the professor.

Now that the danger has seemed to have past, it is time. Not maybe everyone’s preferred gendre, but I like some variety between blues, etc.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I know a remote forest area which a fire swept through and completely incinerated about six years ago. It's still looks like that area in Siberia that was devastated by a meteor.

I assume it will take at least a couple of decades to once again look how it did before the fire.

 

[Solartiger]

I assume it will take at least a couple of decades to once again look how it did before the fire.

This is really strange.

We have lots of fires here too. Sometimes natural causes, sometimes arson. But next spring there is fresh grass nearly everywhere and after 18 months it looks better than before.

 

[DonH50]

It very much depends upon the soil, weather, and type of fire (how hot, how long it lingered). Also altitude, here, as high range can take decades to recover. Some types of soil become impermeable ("glassy") and can take years to recover while others begin recovering in weeks. The former is not uncommon and is why rapid response is required to begin mitigation and recovery before rains hit and cause sever flooding. The Forest Service has a specially-trained team, the Burned Area Emergency Response (BAER) program: https://www.fs.usda.gov/science-technology/fire/after-fire Chances are BAER members are already there, or will be soon, to begin assessing the damage and risk potential (mainly flooding).

Here is a picture pulled from the 'net. This is an average overview.

 

[Ron Resnick]

This is really strange.

Why?

But next spring there is fresh grass nearly everywhere

Grass, sure. I specifically referred to "forest."

and after 18 months it looks better than before.

"Looks better than before" is a different benchmark than "look how it did before the fire," which is what I wrote.

I am referring to from "incinerated" back to a normal remote forest of 75 foot pine, spruce and fir trees.

 

[Steve williams]

I know a remote forest area which a fire swept through and completely incinerated about six years ago. It's still looks like that area in Siberia that was devastated by a meteor.

I assume it will take at least a couple of decades to once again look how it did before the fire.

I disagree..Last year there was a huge fire up the 241 toll road which runs parallel with these mountains. The crews were out immediately and replanted the entire miles of hillsides within very short order. We are now about 1 1/2 years from that disaster and the hillsides look like nothing ever happened

 

[Ron Resnick]

I disagree..Last year there was a huge fire up the 241 toll road which runs parallel with these mountains. The crews were out immediately and replanted the entire miles of hillsides within very short order. We are now about 1 1/2 years from that disaster and the hillsides look like nothing ever happened

They replanted an entire forest, and now there are brand new 75 foot conifers back there suddenly?