Have We Become Conditioned Permanently to Hi-Fi Sound?

[Bill Hart]

Agreed - what I call the 'splashy' sound must be what 90% of punters want - or it wouldn't be in such preponderance at shows.

Your comments about 'paling compared to real, live music' seem to me to miss the point though. To me a recording is a work of art - I can't recall visitors to the Louvre in Paris saying 'You know, the beauty of the Mona Lisa really is not done justice to by Leonardo's flat, 2-dimensional representation of her'. Though they might have been saying this in French and I wouldn't have caught it.

Fair point. Agreed that recordings can be works of art in their own right. But to the extent we were talking about a natural, lifelike presentation, rather than an artifically dazzling rendition of it, the latter is not convincing, although it may be attractive. Indeed, i thought that was one of your points.

 

[opus111]

My point was I want the original art to move me, I don't consider the system to be a work of art itself. But perhaps system designers are wanna-be artists themselves which explains why they want to strut their stuff at the expense of the true artists (performers and recording engineers). If the audio system is a work of art (and I strive for mine to be) its artistry consists in its internal elegance, simplicity of design, not in imposing its character on others' art.

The same principle applies to the musicians ISTM - they're just the servants to faithfully transfer the composer's intent to the listeners, not to get all egotistical and draw attention to themselves. At least those are the musicians I admire the most.

 

[Mosin]

My point was I want the original art to move me, I don't consider the system to be a work of art itself. But perhaps system designers are wanna-be artists themselves which explains why they want to strut their stuff at the expense of the true artists (performers and recording engineers). If the audio system is a work of art (and I strive for mine to be) its artistry consists in its internal elegance, simplicity of design, not in imposing its character on others' art.

The same principle applies to the musicians ISTM - they're just the servants to faithfully transfer the composer's intent to the listeners, not to get all egotistical and draw attention to themselves. At least those are the musicians I admire the most.

The problem, and I know this firsthand, is that those who are in the audio business because they love music are constantly striving to make their product the best it can be, and in that struggle they find themselves necessarily engulfed in ideas that lead to achievements which demand attention. Otherwise, their product is merely one of the herd, and that will never do because without sales they cannot continue traveling down the path they started. A balance has to be maintained, and if it isn't, the designer gets immersed in one art while the other slips away. Music always has to be the guiding influence for those who are truly trying to further the hobby. Failure in high-end audio is a product that does not exemplify the best of its designer's ability, in my opinion. The problem with that opinion is determining when to say that the product is a finished one that's ready to sell. It isn't an easy business; it's really hard.

There are a lot of different mindsets, though. I have seen various types of manufacturers, the tired ones who are trying to follow the masterpiece they created years ago, the ones with money sans talent who just make expensive things, the clueless marketeers who sell the items of others, the hungry and desperate who have to sell something right now, the bored who see audio as just another job, the attention whores who think it is more about them, the cold charlatans who would steal from their mothers, and the true enthusiasts who have dreams of making things better. They are all hard to sort out even when you know the players, but the hope is that the work speaks for itself. However, even if it does, one link in the chain of a showroom, or a show setup, can throw things offtrack. Those links become confused because manufacturers depend on one another to build rooms at shows and dealerships. One guy might fall short, and bring down the others a bit. In fact, I believe the whole affair is more confusing than we care to admit, but at the end of the day, we have to calm down, listen to music, and see if it works. If it doesn't, we start over again, correct whatever isn't to expectations and hope that someone out there agrees with the result.

 

[DaveyF]

It isn't an easy business; it's really hard.

There are a lot of different mindsets, though. I have seen various types of manufacturers, the tired ones who are trying to follow the masterpiece they created years ago, the ones with money sans talent who just make expensive things, the clueless marketeers who sell the items of others, the hungry and desperate who have to sell something right now, the bored who see audio as just another job, the attention whores who think it is more about them, the cold charlatans who would steal from their mothers, and the true enthusiasts who have dreams of making things better.

I agree with you Win, BUT I think your points apply to all business's, not just audio.

 

[Bill Hart]

The problem, and I know this firsthand, is that those who are in the audio business because they love music are constantly striving to make their product the best it can be, and in that struggle they find themselves necessarily engulfed in ideas that lead to achievements which demand attention. Otherwise, their product is merely one of the herd, and that will never do because without sales they cannot continue traveling down the path they started. A balance has to be maintained, and if it isn't, the designer gets immersed in one art while the other slips away. Music always has to be the guiding influence for those who are truly trying to further the hobby. Failure in high-end audio is a product that does not exemplify the best of its designer's ability, in my opinion. The problem with that opinion is determining when to say that the product is a finished one that's ready to sell. It isn't an easy business; it's really hard.

There are a lot of different mindsets, though. I have seen various types of manufacturers, the tired ones who are trying to follow the masterpiece they created years ago, the ones with money sans talent who just make expensive things, the clueless marketeers who sell the items of others, the hungry and desperate who have to sell something right now, the bored who see audio as just another job, the attention whores who think it is more about them, the cold charlatans who would steal from their mothers, and the true enthusiasts who have dreams of making things better. They are all hard to sort out even when you know the players, but the hope is that the work speaks for itself. However, even if it does, one link in the chain of a showroom, or a show setup, can throw things offtrack. Those links become confused because manufacturers depend on one another to build rooms at shows and dealerships. One guy might fall short, and bring down the others a bit. In fact, I believe the whole affair is more confusing than we care to admit, but at the end of the day, we have to calm down, listen to music, and see if it works. If it doesn't, we start over again, correct whatever isn't to expectations and hope that someone out there agrees with the result.

Effective reporting from the trenches.

 

[NorthStar]

The problem, and I know this firsthand, is that those who are in the audio business because they love music are constantly striving to make their product the best it can be, and in that struggle they find themselves necessarily engulfed in ideas that lead to achievements which demand attention. Otherwise, their product is merely one of the herd, and that will never do because without sales they cannot continue traveling down the path they started. A balance has to be maintained, and if it isn't, the designer gets immersed in one art while the other slips away. Music always has to be the guiding influence for those who are truly trying to further the hobby. Failure in high-end audio is a product that does not exemplify the best of its designer's ability, in my opinion. The problem with that opinion is determining when to say that the product is a finished one that's ready to sell. It isn't an easy business; it's really hard.

There are a lot of different mindsets, though. I have seen various types of manufacturers, the tired ones who are trying to follow the masterpiece they created years ago, the ones with money sans talent who just make expensive things, the clueless marketeers who sell the items of others, the hungry and desperate who have to sell something right now, the bored who see audio as just another job, the attention whores who think it is more about them, the cold charlatans who would steal from their mothers, and the true enthusiasts who have dreams of making things better. They are all hard to sort out even when you know the players, but the hope is that the work speaks for itself. However, even if it does, one link in the chain of a showroom, or a show setup, can throw things offtrack. Those links become confused because manufacturers depend on one another to build rooms at shows and dealerships. One guy might fall short, and bring down the others a bit. In fact, I believe the whole affair is more confusing than we care to admit, but at the end of the day, we have to calm down, listen to music, and see if it works. If it doesn't, we start over again, correct whatever isn't to expectations and hope that someone out there agrees with the result.

-----I like your post Win; we can tell that you put your mind, knowledge, experience, and love into it. ...It rings right.

 

[opus111]

The problem, and I know this firsthand, is that those who are in the audio business because they love music are constantly striving to make their product the best it can be, and in that struggle they find themselves necessarily engulfed in ideas that lead to achievements which demand attention.

Now we're getting all philosophical so I'm going to deconstruct what you've written to highlight what seem to me to be the fault-lines in your thinking. Achievements demanding attention? If the achievements are truly in the service of the music, how is it that they can be demanding? Also I take issue with this word 'necessarily' - necessary for what? You seem to be implying that those who work in the service of music aren't there out of free choice, they're somehow bound - but if they're bound then I can't see how that can arise from the service of music - more likely from the service of mammon.

Otherwise, their product is merely one of the herd, and that will never do because without sales they cannot continue traveling down the path they started.

I agree that products need differentiation, however this arises naturally because designers have differing priorities over what matters. So their individual proclivities are bound to shine through. Monet doesn't have to 'compete' with Degas, they appeal to different sensitivities.

A balance has to be maintained, and if it isn't, the designer gets lost in one art while the other slips away. Music always has to be the guiding influence for those who are truly trying to further the hobby. Failure in high-end audio is a product that does not exemplify the best of its designer's ability, in my opinion. The problem with that opinion is determining when to say that the product is a finished one that's ready to sell. It isn't an easy business; it's really hard.

Agreed - I prefer not to think in 'product' terms at all, rather the equipment is providing the customer a service - that of reproducing his/her musical library. Product thinking will always lead to imbalances. Look at Apple - they bring out a new product on a cycle - how does that serve the customer who just bought the last one? How does it serve a planet with finite resources? There's something inherently unsustainable about product-based thinking.

When I was working as a designer in the business (not high-end, rather custom installation) I wouldn't really consider anything 'finished' rather a work-in-progress. So I was always planning the Mark II even as the Mark I was being promoted - I think this made me a nightmare to my paymasters because at shows they'd not want me to do anything at all to encourage potential customers to defer their purchase until the Mark II version.

<snipped out paragraph where I agree>

 

[Mosin]

Actually, I believe we agree completely, and the differences you note are probably only a matter of semantics due to my lack of writing skill. However, we are bound by an unshakable obsession to achieve our best, and the contemporaries Monet and Degas did compete in a sense for how their paintings were to be skied at exhibits. Those exhibit locations helped cement them in history. Otherwise, like Rousseau, discovery of their work would have been left to chance. In the end, as I said before, the product should stand for itself. We agree on that for certain.

 

[opus111]

Actually, I believe we agree completely, and the differences you note are probably only a matter of semantics due to my lack of writing skill. However, we are bound by an unshakable obsession to achieve our best, and the contemporaries Monet and Degas did compete in a sense for how their paintings were to be skied at exhibits.

Yes - in one sense they did 'compete' - but its not a competition for sales, rather a 'competition' for attention. Attention it seems to me is not a finite resource, so there's no 'win-lose' aspect here hence my scare quotes around 'competition'.

In the end, as I said before, the product should stand for itself. We agree on that for certain.

Agreed subject to my hesitations about speaking in product terms at all, as already mentioned. For me, I see the future is more akin to 'music as a service' rather than 'buy my latest product'.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Its how my home-brewed actives sound, but I've not yet heard that kind of sound out of any commercial actives. It was a long time ago but Meridian's (DSP) and ATC's (analog) both sounded harsh at the top, fatiguing.

You need to listen to some top quality studio monitors. There are plenty that have juiced upper mids, that sizzling faux detail, but the good ones throw a window open on the recording. Nothing harsh about them.

Tim

 

[Raffles]

Its how my home-brewed actives sound, but I've not yet heard that kind of sound out of any commercial actives. It was a long time ago but Meridian's (DSP) and ATC's (analog) both sounded harsh at the top, fatiguing.

I would love to hear a selection of commercial actives to compare against. When I heard the Backes and Muller recently they immediately stood out as being just straightforward (albeit very powerful, very big, very expensive) like my own homebrew system, whereas most other systems in the show sounded strained and peculiar. Audiophiles perhaps feel that the construction of an audio system should resemble that of a musical instrument and maybe when listening to solo violin or piano, if a large horn resonates, or some strange configuration of drivers gives extra 'ambience', maybe it sounds quite good and even gives a 'holographic' quality. But play a large orchestral sound through it, and its coloration and limited repertoire become obvious. Depending on what you're listening to, a reasonable active system sounds almost boring in comparison for the first few moments: an amplified electric violin compared to a Stradivarius. But you quickly realise that you are listening to the recording directly through the aforementioned transparent window, rather than strained through someone else's childish idea of what looks like a musical instrument.

 

[rbbert]

Linkwitz Orion, as previously mentioned

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Linkwitz Orion, as previously mentioned

Or even the Plutos if you have a smaller listening space and don't mind speakers that look like plumbing. The Orions need a lot of space.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I would love to hear a selection of commercial actives to compare against.

Find a good pro audio supply store.

Depending on what you're listening to, a reasonable active system sounds almost boring in comparison for the first few moments.....But you quickly realise that you are listening to the recording directly through the aforementioned transparent window, rather than strained through someone else's childish idea of what looks like a musical instrument.

This. Except in the aforementioned pro shop you'll probably find tizzy/boomy actives sitting right along side of the good stuff. People like that exaggerated sound, and as long as they do, manufacturers will serve it up.

Tim

 

[caesar]

Did anyone ever do this excerise in art class in school? Take a complicated drawing of a person's face...try to copy it. Most of us start with round circle for a face...2 round circles for eyes...and end up with a cartoon. Our brains are wired to know eyes are round, so is a face...so when we see even a bad drawing, we automatically say 'person's face'...we cannot help it.
HOWEVER, turn the complicated drawing of that person's face UPSIDE DOWN...and try to copy it. It is fascinating how good your copy becomes!!! You stop drawing a circle for a face, etc...which you are 'conditioned' to do...because you are no longer looking at a complicated drawing of face..but the brain sees a series of complex shadows, etc...you end up drawing quite a good copy (most of us anyway)...and when you turn your drawing rightside up...most people are shocked at how good it is. We had 16 in a classroom...and it was remarkable how good these drawings were...by kids who definitely did not 'know how to draw'.

I wonder if audio is similar...we hear a sax...whether off mp3, table radio or super-system...and we are conditioned to know 'its a sax'...even if it is too high pitched, thin, thick, tinny, flat, nasal...we cannot help it. We KNOW it is a sax. But if we could somehow do the same as the art exercise above (no idea how!)...i wonder what we would all think of our audio systems.

I wonder what would happen if some took a CD of ordinary sounds which we almost never hear on our systems...standing next to a car engine when someoen starts the ignition (room filling bass, etc), or a truck trying to back up (rumble plus high pitched ring)...would that help us compare real to audio better? No idea. Just a thought.

I think what you are getting at here is that once we have a powerful experience, we cannot hear the same system in the same way as we did before. You can hear a sax on an mp3, but then hear it front row center with music that moves you emotionally. It changes your outlook FOREVER. I recently saw Jimmy Vaughan play and had awesome seats. His sax player is AMAZING. To me, watching this almost unseen/ unheard, 44 hit YouTube video brings out a lot of memories of an amazing jam. Although the video is taped at a distance, I still see him blow that horn like his life and all of the world depended on it, while making the most beautiful music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JikTT5LjWeQ

After having heard Jimmy's sax player, the sax never sounds the same to me. I am now judging all sax players and sax music based on my new standard based on a revelatory experience.... and it's like that with all experiences, not just high end audio systems... Our minds are like that and just fill in the details, so we can never "un-experience" things.

 

[ack]

At these recent shows I heard this "hi-fi" sound in virtually every room, as I have heard at dealers. You know what I mean: that indistinguishable bright, boomy "punch-and-sizzle." The preponderance of low treble brightness, prominent bass, those smaller-than-life pinpoint images that I maintain are an artifact of the recording process, the wide and high but shallow soundstage, the hyped up detail that sounds unnatural to me. This sound was everywhere at these audiophile shows. I found myself running quickly out of these rooms after being assaulted sonically by this "hi-fi" sound. Oftentimes it was a relief just to get out of there.

...

Bass drums don't overwhelm but have much more of a thud than an overwhelming thump. Highs are more natural and don't sound like cans of spray mist being actuated. There is much more of a robust, 3-dimensional sound.

Hi Roger, you are obviously a very sophisticated listener. In the past, I have used almost the same words, here and here; excerpts:

Getting rid of the hi-fi character in my system has been the biggest struggle...

The term "hi-fi" nowadays is used many times to refer to the typical average home stereo sound: unsophisticated, grossly colored, un-nuanced, flat, exaggerated tonal balance in any direction you want, et al... Things like, boomy, fat bass; lack of image focus; lack of depth; zingy highs... Or other simple things, like listening to a person speak and sounding larger than life, like they are everywhere instead in front of you, with a hazy image, thin or shouty, etc... Collectively, all these are simply different manifestations of lack of accuracy... Think of club sound and you have the typical 'hi-fi' sound I and others are referring to... Still, hi-fi can sound exciting, making you wanna stand up and dance - nothing wrong with that per se... But when we talk about getting rid of 'hi-fi' we imply making a system sound more like real music; therefore, accuracy and 'hi-fi' (as the term has come to be used nowadays) sit at opposite extremes, despite its original meaning of true high fidelity...
​

To take the bass drum as an example, you are spot on as well. I keep using the Telarc bass drum as a great example: over the years, I've watched my system go from reproducing it as a deep thump with plenty of overhang to a big tight thud, where you actually hear the membrane move rather than feel a woofer punching you in the stomach and shaking the walls. It's not perfect, but God so much more real than ever before. Accuracy is such a great thing.

With respect to shows, we are in agreement as well: they don't cut it for me primarily because they feature mostly small rooms, they are crowded, loud and noisy; you go into one and sit on the left corner; then on to another and you end up in the right corner; you have obstructions left, right and in front of you; the demos are too short, the material selected to hide deficiencies, and the sound just too hi fi in lots of cases. This is why I value well set up, in-store demo so much.

Great post of yours! I am sure we have a lot to learn from you. Welcome.

 

[treitz3]

To take the bass drum as an example, you are spot on as well. I keep using the Telarc bass drum as a great example: over the years, I've watched my system go from reproducing it as a deep thump with plenty of overhang to a big tight thud, where you actually hear the membrane move rather than feel a woofer punching you in the stomach and shaking the walls. It's not perfect, but God so much more real than ever before. Accuracy is such a great thing.

Oh, I could not agree with you more.

Tom