Hello from the beautiful city of Lindau in Germany

[bonzo75]

Yeah but this should be done with rigour this time - level matched and blinded.

Is this becoming a subjectivist - objectivist forum again

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Is this becoming a subjectivist - objectivist forum again

Just a proper test rather than biased assessment. Blinded and level matched is ideal so this is how it should be done.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Would be good if Emile could throw in a TA Dac 8 as a cheap curve ball option too or maybe an Oppo or something.

 

[christoph]

Yeah but this should be done with rigour this time - level matched and blinded.

There was no blindfolding necessary, it was very obvious
And level matching took place

 

[Audiophile Bill]

There was no blindfolding necessary, it was very obvious
And level matching took place

And what was the result of this shootout and who was the audience?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

There was no blindfolding necessary, it was very obvious
And level matching took place

Blinded is the key to reducing any potential bias btw.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

When we conduct our clinical research on our new medicines, it is amazing the influence of open label studies versus especially double blinded (rather than single blinded) studies.
Some amazing examples in medicine of open label studies concluding a statistically significant positive effect versus the control arm with a large effect size versus no statistically significant difference with same control when blinded.
Anyway - I have no horse in said race but curious to know which dac comes out best.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I’d be happy to host a shootout. dB meter and several dac’s available, Totaldac d1-12 mk2, Aqua Formula xhd, T+A. The Nagra HD and Lampizator GG are no longer part of our inventory, you can’t keep everything...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Someone get Alex Peychev to throw an APL DSD-MR into the mix.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I’d prefer others then myself to evaluate these products and the differences between them though.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I’d prefer others then myself to evaluate these products and the differences between them though.

Meaning you rather not host or prefer a panel to attend?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Meaning you rather not host or prefer a panel to attend?

I’d love to host, also love to compare these dac’s, but prefer a panel to attend and pass judgement.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I’d love to host, also love to compare these dac’s, but prefer a panel to attend and pass judgement.

Ah yeah - I thought you meant that.

 

[microstrip]

Just a proper test rather than biased assessment. Blinded and level matched is ideal so this is how it should be done.

A lot more than blinded and level matched is needed for a proper test ...
Panels - collective shared decision - is one the biggest sins in listening. But listening with friends is much more fun.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

A lot more than blinded and level matched is needed for a proper test ...
Panels - collective shared decision - is one the biggest sins in listening. But listening with friends is much more fun.

Actually if people just mark a sheet of paper and no discussion is had until all tracks are done then this would still be the most rigorous test done on high end dacs that I have seen reported.

At the moment “compare” rigour is ropey.

 

[Tango]

You people scare the hell out the manufacturers.. not with the shootouts...but with your ears..hehe

Tang

 

[Folsom]

You people scare the hell out the manufacturers.. not with the shootouts...but with your ears..hehe

Tang

Indeed it is hard to tell what some people want, and if they represent a very large group.

Perhaps one of the most challenging things is when people say they don’t like “distortion” but they mean aberration perhaps - they also call aberrations as artifacts. As proven time and again, low distotion isn’t a particularly well appreciated thing onto only itself - SET, no global feedback, etc, show what people actually want. There’s a barrier between most of us, as we describe things differently and appreciate different things.

Although I feel as though some people are gaining speed in directions that make sense to me. It hasn’t been a quick thing to begin to unveil who likes what and what they say actually means.

Here’s an amusing anecdote. I brought a powercord I make to someone’s house. We put it in place of one of his, to his power distribution device. I literally thought he’d get down on his hands and knees and grovel in order to get me to leave it with him until I have cables for sale... I mean, my first thought was, “oh, I’m not leaving with my cable am I....” Actually I did, he prefered his. (Which made some beautiful music unlistenable, for example) (And I’ve since learned it’s rare that a single one of my cables sounds right in a stereo, a whole loom is the only way to go, so it’ll sound natural and balanced - even with that one exception)

 

[Sablon Audio]

My perspective on this is that I am about to place an order for an Extreme server and will be looking to replace my venerable T+A dac with a top ranking PCM / R2R one. The opportunity to listen to several contenders in the same sitting with this particular server would be a great opportunity. Taiko is commercially neutral, since he doesn’t sell / promote any of the brands concerned nor indeed any electronics beyond his own.

 

[shakti]

I open my house (Germany, west of Cologne) and invite regular for bigger music listening and gear comparing sessions,
called "high end workshop" (next one will be 15'of June 2019)

Mostly around 20 to 30 people come over to enjoy the event in two rooms.

The guests can bring their own gear (one day before for better set up) and manufacturers offer their stuff as well to support the workshop,
most likely they like to attend as well.

Themes of the workshops were as example:
- amplifiers (NAT, Air Tight, Devialet, Jeff Rowland, Mark Levinson, Hypex)
- pre amplifiers (Audio Note, Kondo, BAT, Krell, Mark Levinson, Koda, VTL, Einstein, Octave)
- Phono Pre (Kondo, Grandinote, Einstein, Octave, NAT, AirTIght, VTL, Thoeress)
- DACs (Lampizator, Ypsilon, Jeff Rowland, BAT, Linn, TotalDAc, Aqua, T&A and many more)
- Cartridges (various Koetsu, various SPU, Lyra, various Audio technica, air tight, Shun Mook, Ikea)
- turntables (Micro Seiki, TechDAS, Reed, seismograph, Linn, VPI)
- speakers (horns, Wilson Audio, Kii, BD- Design, Zingali, RD Acoustic, Thoeress)

We are all not "blinded", even level adjustment is not done properly.

Our experience after some of those workshops is, that the difference and the character of many of the products on comparison is so
clear, that you can identify them even on different listening levels.

The last comparison of High End DACs was done a year ago, so it might be a good idea to plan the next one

I will see in Munich some of the smaller manufacturers, may be they like to support.
(maybe again with the SGM server

In the history I never invited the WBF community to this kind of workshops,
this was done so far only in the three major German forums.
But as the Cologne airport is not far away and some WBF members do live in Europe, same with some of the best High End manufacturers
I will do invite WBF for the next workshop as well.

Just looking for the best WBF Forums section to post such an invitation,
may be under "other Audioshows"?
any suggestions?
as "audioshow" does not fit properly...

 

[VinylSavor]

Guys, maybe you want to start a separate thread for the shootout discussion... Doesn't really fit here