Hmmm...
- Thread starter kipdent
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As I said the other day, Gramophone never changed their name to CD-Player or Harddisk ...
In audio, convenience has too often ruled over actual quality of perception, which varies from person to person. We all have our preferences - as my sig says, I'm hunting everywhere for my own most preferred distortion.
Bored with these discussions? If we are discussing preference, then yes - boring. If we are discussing actual ability to reproduce an analog signal, not necessarily boring, but pretty obvious. If we are discussing which form/chain of distortion is most pleasing? Can be quite interesting.
In audio, convenience has too often ruled over actual quality of perception, which varies from person to person. We all have our preferences - as my sig says, I'm hunting everywhere for my own most preferred distortion.
Bored with these discussions? If we are discussing preference, then yes - boring. If we are discussing actual ability to reproduce an analog signal, not necessarily boring, but pretty obvious. If we are discussing which form/chain of distortion is most pleasing? Can be quite interesting.
Given Mike L's substantial commitment to the tape medium, which has been his long standing reference, I understood his comments as more of a sense of amazement that his SOTA vinyl rig had progressed to the point where it was competitive with tape. I will let Mike clarify if he wishes
That is certainly what I have experienced on recent visits....Although may be it is not related to the specific tapes and LPs used in these listening tests when listening to tapes versus vinyl we can not discard age. Tapes age and loose "freshness" as I have seen people referring to it, and vinyl records are much more stable, as the mechanical properties suffer much less with age than magnetic ones.
It would be nice to record both outputs in DSD 5.6 and ask Bruce to compare the recordings in his system to have his opinion.
It would be nice to record both outputs in DSD 5.6 and ask Bruce to compare the recordings in his system to have his opinion.
In my experience, I don't see how the raw master tape (Even a Safety dup) can be pressed to vinyl w/o some subtractive eq especially in the bass region. The needle would jump out of the grooves. In this area (Bass extension), I feel RTR gets the nod in general if you are comparing the best versions in each format.
As I said the other day, Gramophone never changed their name to CD-Player or Harddisk ...
In audio, convenience has too often ruled over actual quality of perception, which varies from person to person. We all have our preferences - as my sig says, I'm hunting everywhere for my own most preferred distortion.
Bored with these discussions? If we are discussing preference, then yes - boring. If we are discussing actual ability to reproduce an analog signal, not necessarily boring, but pretty obvious. If we are discussing which form/chain of distortion is most pleasing? Can be quite interesting.
At the risk of losing all originality .. Agreed again ..
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
It can't. That's why they have look-ahead limiters. That's also why they made the Studer pre-view machine so the engineers would have a few seconds to lower the volume or make changes on the comp/limiter to compensate.
At the risk of losing all originality .. Agreed again ..
i expected this reaction here; which is why i only posted my thoughts on this subject on my Audiogon system page.
speak first and then listen (and maybe never listen) is the prevaling culture here.
and i've clearly posted that i fully agree that in theory the source always betters the recording. and that the very best tapes are better than even the best vinyl. so my comments are not put in any definative context at all; yet the reactions are as if i had done that. my comments are qualified.
how many people have invested as heavily in both vinyl and tape as i have? only a very few. and i have many different levels of master dubs including all the Tape project tapes. i agree with the comments that the there are plenty of ways for a master dub to be compromised. i have been offered many master dubs over the years and i only acquire the ones that offer excellence.
all i am saying is that the very very best vinyl has risen to the point where it pushes master dubs to be very very very good to exceed the vinyl.
what use to measure up as better than the vinyl in my system no longer does.
instead of saying why not, go hear this vinyl gear....maybe you will learn something.
naaaah. not too likely i think.
Something worth knowing:
“Most people don't realize that the distance around the inner grooves of a 12-inch record is about half the distance around the outer grooves,” Golden explains. “As the distance around each revolution decreases, the high frequencies become harder for a playback stylus to read.”
As a result, the inner tracks will sound duller than the outer tracks. The high frequencies “simply can't be reproduced the same as if they were cut on the outside of the disc,” Golden adds. “And no, it can't be fixed by adding extra high end. That would add more distortion to the inside cuts.” Consequently, song sequencing for a vinyl release is very important if you want to maximize sound quality, particularly in the upper frequency spectrum.
Lyman notes that you will begin experiencing a loss of high end about halfway through an LP. “A lot of classic records were sequenced so a softer song or a ballad was on the inside, and usually the louder cuts were on the outside. I always tell clients to consider sequencing the vinyl version differently than the CD. Maybe put a softer song with less high end on the inside. You'll have a better-sounding record, especially if you keep the length of each side under 20 minutes.”
Simpson notes that even if he puts only a few minutes of music on a 12-inch record, he tries to keep the grooves closer to the outside of the disc rather than spacing them out evenly across the entire platter. “It might look like you're not getting your money's worth, because the disc doesn't look full, but it'll sound better overall.”
“Most people don't realize that the distance around the inner grooves of a 12-inch record is about half the distance around the outer grooves,” Golden explains. “As the distance around each revolution decreases, the high frequencies become harder for a playback stylus to read.”
As a result, the inner tracks will sound duller than the outer tracks. The high frequencies “simply can't be reproduced the same as if they were cut on the outside of the disc,” Golden adds. “And no, it can't be fixed by adding extra high end. That would add more distortion to the inside cuts.” Consequently, song sequencing for a vinyl release is very important if you want to maximize sound quality, particularly in the upper frequency spectrum.
Lyman notes that you will begin experiencing a loss of high end about halfway through an LP. “A lot of classic records were sequenced so a softer song or a ballad was on the inside, and usually the louder cuts were on the outside. I always tell clients to consider sequencing the vinyl version differently than the CD. Maybe put a softer song with less high end on the inside. You'll have a better-sounding record, especially if you keep the length of each side under 20 minutes.”
Simpson notes that even if he puts only a few minutes of music on a 12-inch record, he tries to keep the grooves closer to the outside of the disc rather than spacing them out evenly across the entire platter. “It might look like you're not getting your money's worth, because the disc doesn't look full, but it'll sound better overall.”
The analog hierarchy has been reasonably established by consensus, with the usual caveats and exceptions based on particulars.
The top is direct to disc vinyl ( short takes and can't be edited), with 30ips tape close or with its own separate but equal or preferable virtues. Next would be high quality 15 ips, which may be close to direct to disc quality, but with dynamics and fullness that disc may lack.
Next would be 45 vinyl, followed by 33 vinyl. Great vinyl tends to be somewhere between 7 1/2 ips tape and 15 ips tape with good vinyl and a hi end rig. Particular cartridges and phono stages can add tasty, hypnotic charm to the proceedings.
There are some Euro audiophiles who believe that some very high end particular vinyl rigs are consistently close to high quality tape playback, and that on a running average, they do pretty much as well over a broad spectrum of sources to be as good as tape for routine listening.
I wouldn't know, what I have heard of top quality tape (with some exceptions as usual), tape wins. Fullness, dynamics, concrete imaging, dense tone color etc. etc.
The top is direct to disc vinyl ( short takes and can't be edited), with 30ips tape close or with its own separate but equal or preferable virtues. Next would be high quality 15 ips, which may be close to direct to disc quality, but with dynamics and fullness that disc may lack.
Next would be 45 vinyl, followed by 33 vinyl. Great vinyl tends to be somewhere between 7 1/2 ips tape and 15 ips tape with good vinyl and a hi end rig. Particular cartridges and phono stages can add tasty, hypnotic charm to the proceedings.
There are some Euro audiophiles who believe that some very high end particular vinyl rigs are consistently close to high quality tape playback, and that on a running average, they do pretty much as well over a broad spectrum of sources to be as good as tape for routine listening.
I wouldn't know, what I have heard of top quality tape (with some exceptions as usual), tape wins. Fullness, dynamics, concrete imaging, dense tone color etc. etc.
Good post.
You'd like this one. Direct to disc, 45 rpm. Going to play it now.
That's the cutter they used on the left - I pity the orchestra, and their many takes.
The brochure goes into extravagant detail about the process employed to secure the result.
Neumann SX-74 cutter head.
Under very exceptional circumstances, when the shortcomings of vinyl are sought dealt with, and the artists are willing to endure near torture conditions as editing is impossible, then the direct to disk process can produce astonishing sonic results.
There are details and string involutions here that I have never heard from regularly produced vinyl with comparable string music.
You'd like this one. Direct to disc, 45 rpm. Going to play it now.
That's the cutter they used on the left - I pity the orchestra, and their many takes.
The brochure goes into extravagant detail about the process employed to secure the result.
Neumann SX-74 cutter head.
Under very exceptional circumstances, when the shortcomings of vinyl are sought dealt with, and the artists are willing to endure near torture conditions as editing is impossible, then the direct to disk process can produce astonishing sonic results.
There are details and string involutions here that I have never heard from regularly produced vinyl with comparable string music.
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Having played a lacquer and then the LP, there are tremendous subtractive issues going on.
You're not really saying much, IMO. Just editorializing, if that.
Great that it sounds good!
One loses a tremendous amount of information in going through all the steps required to manufacture a record eg. plating and pressing. Granted some of these steps continue to be improved (such as having the plating and pressing facilities under one roof) but the issues still exist.
in actuality, the most heavily modulated grooves on an Lp are with high frequencies, not low. that is what the R.I.A.A. curve does. and it's because of what you say, deep impactful bass notes un-equalized would make the stylus jump. so groove modulation, where the stylus drag can affect the speed of the record, is most evidant on groove sections with lots of high frequencies.
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Mike, I'd have to say that the mastering engineers have always played with the low frequencies, eg reducing them, monoing, summing, etc. I'll have to find some interesting conversations with a mastering engineer about the ins and outs of remastering. I learned an awful lot
or ?And part of the superiority of 45 rpm pressings
Myles B. Astor
Interesting! I've gotten some 15 ips copies of some rock such as Steely Dan and Yes and it's shocking how much they messed the transfer up--even when compared to say George Piros' work (who was in my book a genius).
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
this is from remasters especially
I feel the messups came from the limiting amplifiers and not setting the vertical phase rotation properly
when in doby, leave them 30/90
doubt
but how many cutting engineers even know what vertical phase rotation is, let alone how to use it??
the newbees say "mono the bottom" (the horror
Laura brought in the pizza, it has to cool--
\too hot now
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
What do you mean by vertical phase rotation?
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
The stylus sees augmentation from each channel as "lift" and if both channels are out of phase on the bottom, you can litterly squeeze the stylus upward and out of the groove-To circumvent thos from occuring, you rotate phase below a certain frequency (I like 120Hz) 30 degrees laterial and 90 degrees vertical and this is barely audible but no way a stylus can be pushed too far upward
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
this not thos
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
I understand -- to prevent groove narrowing right?
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
it is mearly a way to rotate the bottom end phase to keep the stylus properly aligned during high modulation bottom end passages
right!
but the status quo is suggesting monoing all bottom below say 180hz
This is insanity but so many subscribe to it. Look up Phase rotation by Orban
In FM transmissions, phase rotation is used to keep the modulation from overswinging
you want to keep it +/- 100KHZ
50 is better
it is frequency modulation so the modulation swings can move wildly +/- if you dont rotate phase, the orban optimod does this for every FM broadcast, doing it correctly will be inaudible
Overmodulation from FM yields less distance for the signal
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
Yes seem to remember reading about Orban along time ago; will have to look it up again.
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
the numbers on the phase rotator is not absolute degrees, it is a "scale"
kind of like the numbers on a volume control
even dB numbers can be off--but the 1-10 numbers, just a self reference-
33cm/sec is a hot album
Telarc 80041 (1812) first issue passed 120cm/sec
Shures, Stanton 881S, could cope
Cannons---
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
At least back then....
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
m91ed could track 100cm/sec at 1g
it was the "trackingist" cartridge ever made LOL
It could stay planted no matter what
even the v15's suffered some with those levels
m95 could not cope
I've turned turntables at 45 degree angles with an m91ed, and it stayed
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
Can't believe you screen the LP. 'Course back then who knew about cartridge alignment and have the tools available today for azimuth, zenith, tracking force, etc.
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
we did study it to the best of our ability, we could get close by ear
vertical tracking angle and overhang you could get very close
force and anti-skid was also reliable
the mids would certainly change with wrong vta
change it for different thickness of vinyl--all the time
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
Interesting! I've gotten some 15 ips copies of some rock such as Steely Dan and Yes and it's shocking how much they messed the transfer up--even when compared to say George Piros' work (who was in my book a genius).
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
this is from remasters especially
I feel the messups came from the limiting amplifiers and not setting the vertical phase rotation properly
when in doby, leave them 30/90
doubt
but how many cutting engineers even know what vertical phase rotation is, let alone how to use it??
the newbees say "mono the bottom" (the horror
Laura brought in the pizza, it has to cool--
\too hot now
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
What do you mean by vertical phase rotation?
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
The stylus sees augmentation from each channel as "lift" and if both channels are out of phase on the bottom, you can litterly squeeze the stylus upward and out of the groove-To circumvent thos from occuring, you rotate phase below a certain frequency (I like 120Hz) 30 degrees laterial and 90 degrees vertical and this is barely audible but no way a stylus can be pushed too far upward
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
this not thos
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
I understand -- to prevent groove narrowing right?
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
it is mearly a way to rotate the bottom end phase to keep the stylus properly aligned during high modulation bottom end passages
right!
but the status quo is suggesting monoing all bottom below say 180hz
This is insanity but so many subscribe to it. Look up Phase rotation by Orban
In FM transmissions, phase rotation is used to keep the modulation from overswinging
you want to keep it +/- 100KHZ
50 is better
it is frequency modulation so the modulation swings can move wildly +/- if you dont rotate phase, the orban optimod does this for every FM broadcast, doing it correctly will be inaudible
Overmodulation from FM yields less distance for the signal
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
Yes seem to remember reading about Orban along time ago; will have to look it up again.
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
the numbers on the phase rotator is not absolute degrees, it is a "scale"
kind of like the numbers on a volume control
even dB numbers can be off--but the 1-10 numbers, just a self reference-
33cm/sec is a hot album
Telarc 80041 (1812) first issue passed 120cm/sec
Shures, Stanton 881S, could cope
Cannons---
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
At least back then....
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
m91ed could track 100cm/sec at 1g
it was the "trackingist" cartridge ever made LOL
It could stay planted no matter what
even the v15's suffered some with those levels
m95 could not cope
I've turned turntables at 45 degree angles with an m91ed, and it stayed
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
Can't believe you screen the LP. 'Course back then who knew about cartridge alignment and have the tools available today for azimuth, zenith, tracking force, etc.
August 19, 2011Wor Mastering
we did study it to the best of our ability, we could get close by ear
vertical tracking angle and overhang you could get very close
force and anti-skid was also reliable
the mids would certainly change with wrong vta
change it for different thickness of vinyl--all the time
August 19, 2011Myles B. Astor
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