Horns with SS amp instead of Tube (se)!?

[bonzo75]

Back on June 2019, I had the chance to listen to Avantgarde Uno XD paired with a Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated.
the sound was horrible and torture for the ears.

That can be the uno though, did you try it with another amp, it sounds that way to me

 

[Alrainbow]

Efficiency and horns can sometimes be confused. Some horn drivers require more drive than others to get them moving. The top two drivers of Universum work brilliantly on teeny watts. The bass requires some shove. The question is will SS reduce the SQ of the midrange and the highs of your speaker. If yes, then biamping should be the next try

In some like Altec, SS drivers will overdamp the bass and make it sound choked and rolled off, but that will not happen with uni.

Efficiency or sensitivity ..?

 

[Vienna]

That can be the uno though, did you try it with another amp, it sounds that way to me

they weren’t mine Ked, the dealer was insisting to listen to them with this setup as the previous trial with VIVA integrated wasn’t successful either.

 

[bonzo75]

Efficiency or sensitivity ..?

Horns will usually be sensitive that low watts will always produce required sound level. However, some woofers will require more effort to move than others, and the low watt SETs usually lack that push. On speakers like Altec, low grip and high output impedance works better while with most modern woofers stronger grip with low output impedance works better

 

[bonzo75]

they weren’t mine Ked, the dealer was insisting to listen to them with this setup as the previous trial with VIVA integrated wasn’t successful either.

Ok good to know they sounded poor with viva too

 

[KeithR]

Hello david and thanks

I was waiting for your inputs about it.

Can you elaborate about what was so horrible with SS and horns in your book?

I know also you play with full horns system and bi Amping them?!

He only thinks Lamm is worth owning.

 

[morricab]

So it’s been a few weeks with my new hORNS Universum mk4 and I was playing them with a few tubes amp - SE, PP etc.
My own set is a PP tube amp and I don’t miss a thing, actually it’s a very good combo I’ve got, to be honest.

I ordered a parallel SE 211 based amps for the kick of it, to go along my PP kt120 amp.. hope I did the right choice... (I was curious how it will sound and nowhere to be found for audition so I pull the plug on one) but anyway, I was thinking along my growing CH Precision set up to get the A1.5 also, but was wondered what you guys think about high end SS amp coupled with a 100db horn speakers.. anyone heard something like that or give it a try at his own home/set up? I always read and heard horns with tubes... (except inky AVANGARD with they own amp I didn’t care for much)

thanks!

PP tubes can sound very nice if the amp is well executed, however, the will not achieve the same inner resolution and harmonic tightness of a good SET. No SS amp I have heard can achieve the same. The bass on the Universum might need some SS grunt but you won’t be doing the Be mid and tweeter compression drivers any favors. Biamping might be a solution but I have found the tonal blend between technologies difficult to achieve (something I tried for a long time when I had Infinity IRS Betas). That is why I don’t like the active bass with Class D approach. In my own DIY active horn I use two tube amps. You could put your 120w PP on the bass and a top notch low/mid power SET on top and that might be the ideal path.

 

[morricab]

Efficiency or sensitivity ..?

Essentially the same thing expressed in different ways.

 

[Folsom]

I don't have any experience with your speakers but over the past 25 years I tried SS amplifiers on many horns and the results were pretty horrible except one, JBL.

david

Not a surprise. They were probably the only one with a very well engineered product that sounds cohesive. Other horns usually have design flaws the become readily obvious when you apply a little bit if damping on the electronics side, with a bit less distortion.

There’s nothing wrong with needing to mask many speakers’ horn deficiencies to get great sound IMO. It’s just another way to enjoy music.

On the flip side you can tell yourself a bunch of wonkey shit to validate why you like one or the other (Brad).

 

[morricab]

Not a surprise. They were probably the only one with a very well engineered product that sounds cohesive. Other horns usually have design flaws the become readily obvious when you apply a little bit if damping on the electronics side, with a bit less distortion.

There’s nothing wrong with needing to mask many speakers’ horn deficiencies to get great sound IMO. It’s just another way to enjoy music.

On the flip side you can tell yourself a bunch of wonkey shit to validate why you like one or the other (Brad).

Nothing wonky about psychoacoustics. Only wonky is people who think they already know it all and aren’t open to there being a deeper level than “low distortion and flat frequency response “. JBL engineered the bass in their monitors in a more typical bass reflex design that benefits from some electrical damping. A horn loaded bass does not require electrical damping and open baffles benefit from little to no damping (even high Q drivers). Your hypotheses are based on what exactly? Where is your proof the other speakers are poorly engineered just because they sound poor with SS?

 

[Folsom]

Nothing wonky about psychoacoustics. Only wonky is people who think they already know it all and aren’t open to there being a deeper level than “low distortion and flat frequency response “. JBL engineered the bass in their monitors in a more typical bass reflex design that benefits from some electrical damping. A horn loaded bass does not require electrical damping and open baffles benefit from little to no damping (even high Q drivers). Your hypotheses are based on what exactly? Where is your proof the other speakers are poorly engineered just because they sound poor with SS?

They aren’t mine. I read well researched work, studies, and verify a lot of it with testing. You blabber on about nonsense.

Damping shouldn’t make a speaker fall to pieces. Reduced bass response would be normal in many but I sincerely doubt you have any idea why.

It’s no mystery lots of speakers are far from perfect. You can hear it and measure it most of the time. There’s no need to re-hash it.

 

[cjfrbw]

Although it is low brow anti-GrayPoupon compared to WBF, the Klipsch audio forum has lots of experience with various SS amps and hi eff. speakers. First Watt and the DIY variations are highly praised.
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/174178-first-watt-nelson-pass-amps/
They make quite a few comparisons with flea tube vs. solid state.

My midrange ribbons are not horns, but they function very well in the 300-7Khz band with 45 tubes. I have had several VFET/SIT types, and they all sound excellent to me, especially if a DHT tube buffer is deployed. They are fairly unique in that they seem neither fish nor fowl in the SS/Tube dichotomy. The latest is a SIT 3 inspired DIY variant that uses a Tokin SIT @ 18 watts/8ohms 30 watts/4 ohms class A instead of the Pass Semi South device, and it sounds great. It is DIY, though Phoenixaudio in Thailand and some builders on DIY audio will make one on request.

I don't think that I would attempt to get serious bass from flea amps without crossover to more powerful amps and subs, but i suppose there is a fringe horn group that might make it work.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I tried Nagra VPA on my horns from FLH and up, but the midbass was floppier than with my all out Borderpatrol DIY 300Bs...I guess it´s all about powersupply
Then I tried Neurochrome Class D on the FLH midbasshorns, but then I got the discontinuity Morricab refers to...
Also tried class D all the way from 75, but that sounded anemic and antiseptic imo
I think my solution might be my BP designed all out GM-70 that´s been in parts for 5 years (due to lack of time) for either midbassduty from 75-550 or even to fully replace my 300Bs
in other words I would rather have tubes in the mid-bass too

 

[marslo]

Ok good to know they sounded poor with viva too

Uno XD received very high score 97/100 points from Stereo Magazine

http://www.akkelisaudio.com/shop/1785/art97/29871197-436fb3-avantgardeun-stereo.pdf

Also the French magazine Haute Fidelite ranked them higher than pricier Magico S1 mk2 and Focal Sopra.

 

[Atmasphere]

PP tubes can sound very nice if the amp is well executed, however, the will not achieve the same inner resolution and harmonic tightness of a good SET.

I've not found this to be the case at all; I've found that when PP is compared to SET its usually apples and oranges- if you really want to hear what PP does compared to SET, get a PP amp that uses the same tubes and parts as the SET. If you are comparing an SET to a PP amp that employs pentodes, class AB and loop feedback its not really fair at all! I did this with a type 45-based SET; compared it to a push pull 45-based amp. Both used the same power supply voltages, the same resistor and capacitor types and no feedback, class A so as to minimize variables. The PP amp was easily more detailed at any volume level, lower noise overall, obviously wider bandwidth... in fact there were no tradeoffs whatsoever- and in order to give the SET the benefit, the PP amp used a cathodyne phase splitter which is arguably the worst way to do it. IMO/IME, the only reason PP gets docked is that most PP amps aren't using DHTs. As you probably know, I like triode amps a lot, but because most PP amps are pentode, this old saw gets trotted out a lot, but as far as I can tell, if you eliminate the variables you find that PP is actually an improvement.


If I were to be running a solid state amp on horns, there would be several things I'd be looking out for. The first thing is that horns are often designed with tube amps in mind, and specifically tube amps with no feedback and so have a high output impedance. Such amps do not behave as voltage sources- instead they act as power sources. So the crossover in the speaker won't work correctly if the amp has a lower output impedance and acts like a voltage source. This can cause a woofer or midrange horn to operate out of band, and that can be unpleasent- and is the reason that horns were considered 'honky' for so long. For more on this see
http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html

Beyond that I would be looking at solid state amps that make a fair bit of 2nd or 3rd harmonic (as both are interpreted by the ear as 'warmth' and 'bloom') and otherwise were not particularly powerful, so that at lower power levels they can produce a musical first watt. If the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are in sufficient level, they can mask the presence of the higher orders and so the amp can sound smooth. Of course this is where Nelson Pass got the name and some of his amps would be worth a try for this. But back in the old days, Radio Shack made some small solid state amps; the best of them being the SA-175C. If you can find one of these and have it properly refurbished, they are very smooth sounding. They have a single-ended voltage amplifier and drive circuit; only going to push-pull at the output. The circuit is very much like the Dynaco ST120, if you can imagine it without the output transistors and instead the driver transistors were doing that duty instead. The SA-175C is the most powerful of these amps (the SA-10, SA-100C and SA101 being some other examples but not as nice) making all of 6 watts on a good day.

 

[morricab]

I've not found this to be the case at all; I've found that when PP is compared to SET its usually apples and oranges- if you really want to hear what PP does compared to SET, get a PP amp that uses the same tubes and parts as the SET. If you are comparing an SET to a PP amp that employs pentodes, class AB and loop feedback its not really fair at all! I did this with a type 45-based SET; compared it to a push pull 45-based amp. Both used the same power supply voltages, the same resistor and capacitor types and no feedback, class A so as to minimize variables. The PP amp was easily more detailed at any volume level, lower noise overall, obviously wider bandwidth... in fact there were no tradeoffs whatsoever- and in order to give the SET the benefit, the PP amp used a cathodyne phase splitter which is arguably the worst way to do it. IMO/IME, the only reason PP gets docked is that most PP amps aren't using DHTs. As you probably know, I like triode amps a lot, but because most PP amps are pentode, this old saw gets trotted out a lot, but as far as I can tell, if you eliminate the variables you find that PP is actually an improvement.


If I were to be running a solid state amp on horns, there would be several things I'd be looking out for. The first thing is that horns are often designed with tube amps in mind, and specifically tube amps with no feedback and so have a high output impedance. Such amps do not behave as voltage sources- instead they act as power sources. So the crossover in the speaker won't work correctly if the amp has a lower output impedance and acts like a voltage source. This can cause a woofer or midrange horn to operate out of band, and that can be unpleasent- and is the reason that horns were considered 'honky' for so long. For more on this see
http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html

Beyond that I would be looking at solid state amps that make a fair bit of 2nd or 3rd harmonic (as both are interpreted by the ear as 'warmth' and 'bloom') and otherwise were not particularly powerful, so that at lower power levels they can produce a musical first watt. If the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are in sufficient level, they can mask the presence of the higher orders and so the amp can sound smooth. Of course this is where Nelson Pass got the name and some of his amps would be worth a try for this. But back in the old days, Radio Shack made some small solid state amps; the best of them being the SA-175C. If you can find one of these and have it properly refurbished, they are very smooth sounding. They have a single-ended voltage amplifier and drive circuit; only going to push-pull at the output. The circuit is very much like the Dynaco ST120, if you can imagine it without the output transistors and instead the driver transistors were doing that duty instead. The SA-175C is the most powerful of these amps (the SA-10, SA-100C and SA101 being some other examples but not as nice) making all of 6 watts on a good day.

Hi Ralph, I have had some well executed Class A, no feedback PP Triode amps in the past (one was the highly regarded VAC 30/30 mkiii), which had zero to 6 dB negative feedback adjustment. I can confirm it always sounded better on zero, I can also say it was inferior to my SETs, except perhaps bass (it had nice output iron). My JJ322 was markedly better on horns but worse on conventional speakers where it was sometimes a bit weak sounding. Good OTL is something different again, in some ways better and in someways not than SET. But given a speaker that both do well on, I find SET markedly better than PP triode.

 

[Carlos269]

I've not found this to be the case at all; I've found that when PP is compared to SET its usually apples and oranges- if you really want to hear what PP does compared to SET, get a PP amp that uses the same tubes and parts as the SET. If you are comparing an SET to a PP amp that employs pentodes, class AB and loop feedback its not really fair at all! I did this with a type 45-based SET; compared it to a push pull 45-based amp. Both used the same power supply voltages, the same resistor and capacitor types and no feedback, class A so as to minimize variables. The PP amp was easily more detailed at any volume level, lower noise overall, obviously wider bandwidth... in fact there were no tradeoffs whatsoever- and in order to give the SET the benefit, the PP amp used a cathodyne phase splitter which is arguably the worst way to do it. IMO/IME, the only reason PP gets docked is that most PP amps aren't using DHTs. As you probably know, I like triode amps a lot, but because most PP amps are pentode, this old saw gets trotted out a lot, but as far as I can tell, if you eliminate the variables you find that PP is actually an improvement.


If I were to be running a solid state amp on horns, there would be several things I'd be looking out for. The first thing is that horns are often designed with tube amps in mind, and specifically tube amps with no feedback and so have a high output impedance. Such amps do not behave as voltage sources- instead they act as power sources. So the crossover in the speaker won't work correctly if the amp has a lower output impedance and acts like a voltage source. This can cause a woofer or midrange horn to operate out of band, and that can be unpleasent- and is the reason that horns were considered 'honky' for so long. For more on this see
http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html

Beyond that I would be looking at solid state amps that make a fair bit of 2nd or 3rd harmonic (as both are interpreted by the ear as 'warmth' and 'bloom') and otherwise were not particularly powerful, so that at lower power levels they can produce a musical first watt. If the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are in sufficient level, they can mask the presence of the higher orders and so the amp can sound smooth. Of course this is where Nelson Pass got the name and some of his amps would be worth a try for this. But back in the old days, Radio Shack made some small solid state amps; the best of them being the SA-175C. If you can find one of these and have it properly refurbished, they are very smooth sounding. They have a single-ended voltage amplifier and drive circuit; only going to push-pull at the output. The circuit is very much like the Dynaco ST120, if you can imagine it without the output transistors and instead the driver transistors were doing that duty instead. The SA-175C is the most powerful of these amps (the SA-10, SA-100C and SA101 being some other examples but not as nice) making all of 6 watts on a good day.

Ralph, did you find any redeeming qualities that the Type 45 SET DHT amplifier had that the 45 PP amplifier did not?

 

[Hear Here]

I made a concious decision to move away from SETs that I'd been using for 15 years or so with Avantgarde speakers (Unos and Duos) as I knew I'd listen to far more music without valves burning away. My SETs used 300B, 845 and PX-25 output tubes and they sounded very good for certain types of music.

I home tried (with demo units or my own purchases) many SS amps including several previously mentioned here - Class A, AB and D - but I found that none bettered the modest NAD M32 integrated. Moreover it does a whole lot more than amplify signals. The OP should quietly (on this forum, mention of anything costing less than 5 figures is derided by many!) buy or borrow an M32, or better still the new M33. Truly you won't be disappointed, although of course your preferred presentation of music, type of music and room acoustics will be important, so try lots of amps - demo or used purchases - and go for what sounds best to you.

Peter

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

hi R
very interesting reading
where do you place parallell SE DHT in all this?
e.g 300B delivering 18 watts
just curious
best
Leif.

 

[Atmasphere]

Ralph, did you find any redeeming qualities that the Type 45 SET DHT amplifier had that the 45 PP amplifier did not?

Not one. The PP amp beat it in every way.