How Much Bass is Enough

[Holmz]

I was told we will also take impulse response. Not sure if thats for phase or what.

Usually impulse response is more of a time-domain thing.
However some measurement that deviates from the “Dirac Delta Function” can show, or give insight into, group-delay.
A step function sort of gives a glimpse of phase, but maybe in a 0/180 sense.

There are more phases than 0 and 180, and some of the subwoofer improvement can benefit from both phase and “group delay EQ”, which is also phase.

It is all pretty easy on paper.
In a room, with walls, and real gear… it often gets a bit more nuanced.

 

[Another Johnson]

Usually impulse response is more of a time-domain thing.
However some measurement that deviates from the “Dirac Delta Function” can show, or give insight into, group-delay.
A step function sort of gives a glimpse of phase, but maybe in a 0/180 sense.

There are more phases than 0 and 180, and some of the subwoofer improvement can benefit from both phase and “group delay EQ”, which is also phase.

It is all pretty easy on paper.
In a room, with walls, and real gear… it often gets a bit more nuanced.

While a true unit step impulse input is defined in the time domain, if you do an FFT, it looks like white noise in the frequency domain. It is a good way to find anomalies between electrical input and audio output. The speakers transfer function will be revealed.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Audiotools actually has its own tone generator and can play all sorts of noise.

Of course milan,
what you need is callbirated microphone with 3.5mm output to feed your system



Either with USB/C or jack for your tablet/mobile phone. A long 3.5m to RCA cable.
Exsample dayton imm 6c available for both inputs

Dayton Audio iMM-6C – Präzises Messmikrofon für iOS/Android, 69,00 €

hs-sound Dayton Audio iMM-6C – Präzises kalibriertes Messmikrofon für iOS und Android. Ideal für Audio-Messungen und EQ-Setup.

www.hs-sound.de

On the back of the packaging is a serial number. Go to the Dayton website and download the calibration file and install it in Audiotool. Your measurement system is ready.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I will measure the standalone bass output this week of the SUB im designing and possibly post the graphs
I know exactly the output of my small floorstander model1 speakers so i have a reasonable good idea how it adds technically.

Soundwise its almost like listening to the big speaker system i designed .
A small speaker with bass down to 40 hz and a 8 inch bass driver is a compromise , which simply doesnt do music justice.
Music sounds handicapped without the SUB , its immediately obvious after a of couple tracks, making it impossible to go back once you hear it.

Bass through the center is very nice actually , it gives you a wall of sound .
The volume can be turned down slightly as well as, " everything is there suddenly "

 

[Alrainbow]

Im
Not an expert but have done this many times
Dayton makes cheap stuff that’s more then needed
by there kit , comes with a calibrated mic
There test tones and an amp
you need to run a few tests
One is imp tests of each driver directly then as a group
This shows the load being used by your amps
Next is pink noise this will show actual load in your room.
then based on these tests make adjustments to make the room sound as needed
lastly is play music to listen to various instruments
This is critical to ensure each instrument has fundamentally correct sound
After this then confirm a need for a sub

 

[Kingrex]

I ordered the microphone today.
Ze'ev of PAP also wrote back and told me which resistor was in parallel and which in series with the horn tweeter.

I sort of want to look for a new horn tweeter. I will take that search to the PAP thread. Mine is rolling off at 15khz.

 

[Alrainbow]

I will measure the standalone bass output this week of the SUB im designing and possibly post the graphs
I know exactly the output of my small floorstander model1 speakers so i have a reasonable good idea how it adds technically.

Soundwise its almost like listening to the big speaker system i designed .
A small speaker with bass down to 40 hz and a 8 inch bass driver is a compromise , which simply doesnt do music justice.
Music sounds handicapped without the SUB , its immediately obvious after a of couple tracks, making it impossible to go back once you hear it.

Bass through the center is very nice actually , it gives you a wall of sound .
The volume can be turned down slightly as well as, " everything is there suddenly "

Is the subs your posting about sealed , ported ??

 

[andromedaaudio]

Is the subs your posting about sealed , ported ??

Closed .

 

[morricab]

I ordered the microphone today.
Ze'ev of PAP also wrote back and told me which resistor was in parallel and which in series with the horn tweeter.

I sort of want to look for a new horn tweeter. I will take that search to the PAP thread. Mine is rolling off at 15khz.

You can hear above 15Khz?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Im
Not an expert but have done this many times
Dayton makes cheap stuff that’s more then needed
by there kit , comes with a calibrated mic
There test tones and an amp
you need to run a few tests
One is imp tests of each driver directly then as a group
This shows the load being used by your amps
Next is pink noise this will show actual load in your room.
then based on these tests make adjustments to make the room sound as needed
lastly is play music to listen to various instruments
This is critical to ensure each instrument has fundamentally correct sound
After this then confirm a need for a sub

Your ears will tell you need if you need a SUB .

 

[Alrainbow]

Your ears will tell you need if you need a SUB .

Not so true as I have learned the hard way
do you know how each instrument sounds ?
our Brain can tell but this can be learned wrong atleast by myself for sure.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Not so true as I have learned the hard way
do you know how each instrument sounds ?
our Brain can tell but this can be learned wrong atleast by myself for sure.

What are you re speakers ?
Do you have a brand/ model name pics / specs ?

 

[sbo6]

Your ears will tell you need if you need a SUB .

Not true. Sometimes (and I'd say more often than not) you don't know what you're missing. It's not just about playing low, it's playing low effortlessly along with ameliorating room modes.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Not true. Sometimes (and I'd say more often than not) you don't know what you're missing. It's not just about playing low, it's playing low effortlessly along with ameliorating room modes.

Try to read my posts earlier in this thread first before reacting.

Who has a room without modes ?
Im talking normal / average listening situations not optimal designed rooms with bass treatment

 

[Kingrex]

Part of the problem, or maybe the whole problem with people having issues with sub integration or a sub not playing natural is poor sub design. I don't hear my 10 inch horn loaded sub as anything other than a much more complete bottom end and a sense of an incredible power increase top to bottom in the system.

It came with a Dayton, 500 watt class D amp that is remote mounted so no blurring from vibrations. It is pushing a single 10" woofer in a 19.5" x 19.5" horn mouth that is 106 db efficient. There is zero bloat or overhang or muddiness. This sub keeps up with my main speakers and completely disappears.

I have not heard room modes. Does not mean if I walked around I would not hear them. I have it set up to sound great at my chair. I don't care if it's booming in a back corner I never sit or listen in.

Best of all is I only needed 1.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have not heard room modes

You got to turn the volume up then

 

[Alrainbow]

A question is the sub being used a servo ?
if a sub is needed it needs to be close enough to other drivers to not stand out
close not just in proximity but speed and acoustic output
you have an open baffle speaker so the room is the speaker box.
the front panel of the speaker is for a delay front to back to allow enough of a delay to hear the difference. all of my panels are technically an open baffle except the irs v
In woofers
it’s why I like panels over box speakers or fill the room

 

[Robh3606]

I have not heard room modes.

You need to do a sine sweep. You will here them. With music not as easy with the sweep very clear. Very high Q only a couple Hz wide.

Rob

 

[Kingrex]

Well yea, they are there. When I run pink noice and walk around, I hear changes in bass. Peaks and traugh. Where my seat is seems pretty good. So I mean, I don't hear room nodes from bass at my seat. If I did I would move the sub.

 

[Robh3606]

Well yea, they are there. When I run pink noice and walk around, I hear changes in bass. Peaks and traugh. Where my seat is seems pretty good. So I mean, I don't hear room nodes from bass at my seat. If I did I would move the sub.

Your missing the point. You will have modes at your seat. Pink noise is a really bad tool to use for hearing nodes. It's averaged noise that randomly changes and is only good for octave to octave levels.

Nodes go both ways +/- so you will get peaks and nulls. There is a good chance you already have things placed. The problem with the sub is it is using room boundaries to get that 106 calculated sensitivity.

You move away from the walls and you will loose some sensitivity and low end but it may not mater as you can always turn it up to make up for any loss.

Rob