How much of burn-in/ break-in (in hours) is objective vs. getting used to sound?

[FrantzM]

Eh, hello - have you read the Doug Self article I linked to containing measured repeatable results of capacitor burn-in?

Is the audibility of such, established and peer reviewed?

I haven't yet. Should go read it then. Thanks.

 

[jkeny]

Is the audibility of such, established and peer reviewed?

I haven't yet. Should go read it then. Thanks.

Ah, audibility, peer-reviewed - as I said I posted that article to counter the absolute statements about there being no mechanism in physics for burn-in.
Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey
I can cite an example of the audibility of burn-in but I'm afraid it will not live up to your exacting AES standards so it therefore never happened, right?

 

[amirm]

Eh, hello - have you read the Doug Self article I linked to in this post containing measured repeatable results of capacitor burn-in?

He showed a partial change retention only for polyester caps, only when used in filtering use, and only when driven with 9 volt RMS. The change in distortion was from 0.0008% THD to 0.0003%. None of this at all reads on the results people talk about with equipment burn-in.

And his tests have not been repeated and may have been representative of the specific device he tested. It is a corner case, of a corner case of a corner case.

 

[FrantzM]

Ah, audibility, peer-reviewed - as I said I posted that article to counter the absolute statements about there being no mechanism in physics for burn-in.
Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey
I can cite an example of the audibility of burn-in but I'm afraid it will not live up to your exacting AES standards so it therefore never happened, right?

Seems that wasn't much of a proof... but hey .. one fights with whatever weapon one possesses

 

[jkeny]

Seems that wasn't much of a proof... but hey .. one fights with whatever weapon one possesses

Proof of what?

 

[jkeny]

He showed a partial change retention only for polyester caps, only when used in filtering use, and only when driven with 9 volt RMS. The change in distortion was from 0.0008% THD to 0.0003%. None of this at all reads on the results people talk about with equipment burn-in.

And his tests have not been repeated and may have been representative of the specific device he tested. It is a corner case, of a corner case of a corner case.

An attempt at even more specificity as a further strawman argument.

 

[jkeny]

He showed a partial change retention only for polyester caps, only when used in filtering use, and only when driven with 9 volt RMS. The change in distortion was from 0.0008% THD to 0.0003%. None of this at all reads on the results people talk about with equipment burn-in.

And his tests have not been repeated and may have been representative of the specific device he tested. It is a corner case, of a corner case of a corner case.

Do the caps know they are being used "only in filter" & turn on this burn-in effect or are you stating some new law of physics?

 

[microstrip]

The main subjected being debated was weather the laws of physics prove that burn-in can cause changes in electrical properties of cables.

The answer is yes - the dielectric absorption changes with the duration of time of the applied stimulus - it is why we must apply the voltage for one exact hour when measuring the dielectric absorption of capacitors. Dielectric absorption also creates noise in capacitors, mainly in the low frequencies.

BTW, the usually reference about distortion caused by dielectric absorption of capacitors is due to the 90's work of Greg Timbers (JBL) and Ed Meitner (Meitner Audio) and can be found in the K2-S5500 literature.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500/page10.jpg

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500/page11.jpg

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500/page12.jpg

Surely audibility is a different matter.

 

[stehno]

Rather limit or avoid embarrassment by keeping quiet. I can respect that.



No vested interests? So you don't own a business selling cable? I'm sorry, I was mistaken then. I noticed your posts "proving" wire burn-in on several other forums too. No vested interests or is that denialism creeping in?



Well, I'd rather be "nasty" and honest than dishonest and in denial, but to each their own. Good luck with future "tests" of this sort and I hope more than 1 trial is conducted per measurement. Preferably 2 or more.

Good luck Dave.

Thanks, Goliath. I probably could not have responded to DaveC any better myself. If I had, DaveC would most likely have yet again misconstrued my disdain and lack of respect for his "expertise" in multiple areas for hatred.

No vested interest, my hiney. Numerous times I've witnessed DaveC shill out er um offer cables he mfg'ers for others to demo in these threads.

But to be clear, Goliath. That's not to say that you and I are no longer at odds about perhaps everything related to high-end audio and science.

 

[Robh3606]

Here are Greg's thoughts about Charge Coupled networks

The capacitor biasing is something that has existed for many years. Tube equipment does it automatically since there is usually a large DC offset between stages. Some early transistor amps/preamps had two polarized caps in series with the center point going to ground through a large resistor.

I personally became aware of this technique for speaker systems through communications with Ed Meitner, currently of EMM Labs. He is a wealth of information regarding these "tricks" to help linearize or improve the sound of passive components.

It turns out that the bias trick actually increases measured IM distortion and the higher the bias voltage, the greater the increase. It is not by a great amount, but it is measureable. The sound imporvement (or change) is very rarely perceived as worse and is never linked with a increase in IM distortion. The sonic effect is one of smoothness, increased spaciallity, detail and stuff like that. IM has a muddling or confusing effect so I doubt that this particular steady state measurement is explaining the sound difference either way.

Simply put, we are striving to create a class A situation but as was just pointed out, depending on the bias voltage with respect to the voltage across the capacitor, we may only have an "A" condition up to a particular drive level. So if it makes you happier, consider the change to be class AB, but heavily biased to A. You must also keep in mind that the voltage across the input terminals of the crossover network does not tell you what voltage or current is applied to any individual component. Some parts block signal and others shunt signal so the loading on a particular part is not obvious. For the most part, the caps are well taken care of with 9 volts, even at healthy drive levels. The obvious choice for 9 volts is the small cheap battery and holders that are available. No current is involved so a smoke detector battery and holder is a natural choice.

We did do one system with 18 v (M9500). Certain of the Japanese reviewers thought it was an improvement. I can't personally tell any difference. I am also told on a regualr basis (again by our Asian customers) that the battery must be changed at least every 90 days and that the sound degrades after that. Once again, I have not been able to "hear" any difference after 90 days and the battery is certainly still good for many years from a voltage standpoint.

What playing around I have done with initial application of a battery to a biased circuit (that has not been previously powered up) is that it takes about 3-5 seconds for the soundstage to change. I have tried to measure the voltage level in that time period and it seems that several volts is all that is necessary to accomplish 90% or more of the improvement. Once a circuit has been energized, it is nearly impossible to return it to zero. You have to individually short out each cap and leave them shorted for a while or else they will creep back up somewhat. If you replace the battery with a short and play the system for a while, the caps will start to bias themselves, although not to anywhere near the same degree.

You can take this opinion for what it has cost you. I have been very pleased with biasing for many years. I use it in all applications that involve a capacitor and I have rarely been disappointed. Results may vary so if it doesn't do it for you that is okay too. It cost a bloody fortune to implement as it requires 4 times the capacitance and double the capacitor parts count. The network size gets huge as well. Inspite of this, I have never heard a capacitor type that didn't improve (or change) including the nearly perfect teflon variety.

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

JMHO but biasing is not the same as burn in. With biasing you have a constant DC voltage applied with burn in there is no such voltage applied.

Rob

 

[microstrip]

JMHO but biasing is not the same as burn in. With biasing you have a constant DC voltage applied with burn in there is no such voltage applied.

Rob

Surely. But what is achieved in terms of dielectrics is similar - I know it is not easy to explain as dielectric absorption is very complex and I am not an expert in solid state physics. Once we start talking about ionic conductivity and the Maxwell Wagner effect things are not simple any more.

It would be great to know if DC biasing produces the same sound effect as 200 hours of cable cooker applied to capacitors!

 

[FrantzM]

Surely. But what is achieved in terms of dielectrics is similar - I know it is not easy to explain as dielectric absorption is very complex and I am not an expert in solid state physics. Once we start talking about ionic conductivity and the Maxwell Wagner effect things are not simple any more.

It would be great to know if DC biasing produces the same sound effect as 200 hours of cable cooker applied to capacitors!

Which gets to show you that even the god people of Harman are not immune to hype things too

 

[stehno]

Do you have any data or references to show your experience is correct?

Sorry, Amir. I've no real data to share, just experience. Then again, upon reading just a small fraction of your 15,000+ posts, I suspect you have little to no real experience.

Do you think maybe we'd be able to meet happily in the middle somewhere?

 

[amirm]

Which gets to show you that even the god people of Harman are not immune to hype things too

Greg is part of the "old" Harman before adoption of blind listening tests and such that they are famous for. JBL group continued that way for a long time until the last few years where the views merged and products like the M2 speaker were developed.

 

[Goliath]

But to be clear, Goliath. That's not to say that you and I are no longer at odds about perhaps everything related to high-end audio and science

:b

 

[amirm]

Sorry, Amir. I've no real data to share, just experience.

Sharing experience is cool. But then you went 10 steps past that with Dave, demanding that yours is more correct than his.

Then again, upon reading just a small fraction of your 15,000+ posts, I suspect you have little to no real experience.

Suspect? You can be more sure than that.

Do you think maybe we'd be able to meet happily in the middle somewhere?

That would come with a different tone than you used above. I have read countless forum arguments on burn-in. None have gone as far as yours in specifying hours and minutes for such processes. You are way, way out there with your views. You have to dial back your process that made your arrived at these conclusions way, way back before there is any reasonable meeting of minds.

 

[jkeny]

Just an anecdotal story (which some will ignore) from an experienced & well known record producer who bought one of my DACs

You'll get a laugh out of this one, the first ten minutes were, for want of a better word, odd, sounding pretty screetchy and harsh and WTH? We had the whole engineering staff listening as Gabriel hooked the Ciunas up and my face almost went red. but! .. over only about 60 minutes the box went from "what??" to "Wow!", quite a wonderful transition. I have never heard of such a profound burn-in transformation, a first in my experience, and as you suggested would happen.But to such a degree I've never experienced. As well, after about 4 hours, it's already got an even more natural, and gratifying sound, not as crystal clear or dryly transparent as our Lavry Golds, but more quietly real and organic, just as usable as the $10K box, maybe more usable if you consider listening pleasure, which is my watchword, as long as there is accuracy, which even at this early date, the Ciunas seems to have. And that is something everyone here can hear! From what you've written we're days away from really having the native sound of the box, but from what I'm hearing now, I'm very pleased, good work John. And you will get more sound/feeling updates from me as the days and week proceed.

And a day later:

And, yes, everyone here has heard the "mature" Ciunas, much love today especially, hour 11

 

[amirm]

Just an anecdotal story (which some will ignore) from an experienced record producer who bought one of my DACs

Some will ignore this comment too but any DAC that sounds "screetchy and harsh" when you first plug it in, doesn't belong in any audiophile's room much less a record producer. If an hour of use could have saved it from that horror, you should have done that before sending it to customers.

 

[amirm]

Do the caps know they are being used "only in filter" & turn on this burn-in effect or are you stating some new law of physics?

Do bolts know if they are holding the tire on your car or being used to keep your car stereo in the dash? You think their use and performance is interchangeable???

What kind of question is that John? Of course caps are used under wildly varying conditions and you can't translate one use to another. An audio DC blocking capacitor would blow its mind to pieces if you put it in the output of a switchmode power supply due to too high of ESR (internal impedance).

In this case, the cap was being used as part of an LP RIAA equalization buffer amplifier. And it was that combination that was measured. No way can you extrapolate to use of capacitors in general. Caps are used in many different roles and their impact on the final performance of device is hugely different.