How much of burn-in/ break-in (in hours) is objective vs. getting used to sound?

[thedudeabides]

FWIW, I wouldn't have kept my ET5 pre based on the first 300 hours with the CJ stock tube.

After a bit more time and replacing the stock tube with the EAT equivalent, it was an entirely different component.

 

[stehno]

Thank you Stehno.
I found that very informative and helpful.

You're welcome, Barry. And thank you for the kind words.

 

[amirm]

Since electrical burn-in (and mechanical settling-in) is a universal thing, the resulting sonic benefits are generally universal across the frequency spectrum and improve all audio characteristics. If I were to burn-in say all plugs and IEC inlets at the same time, I'd make it a point to be around during the 52 - 53 hour mark to witness the transformation and for this smaller level of change the first thing that always comes to mind is an opening up sensation.

It is a remarkable thing... that despite differing construction, amount and rate of current going through it... that there is an internal clock that makes them all behave that way at this hourly marker.

 

[Al M.]

It is a remarkable thing... that despite differing construction, amount and rate of current going through it... that there is an internal clock that makes them all behave that way at this hourly marker.

Hehe.

 

[stehno]

It is a remarkable thing... that despite differing construction, amount and rate of current going through it... that there is an internal clock that makes them all behave that way at this hourly marker.

Hmmmmmm. I could have sworn I included the all important attribute "simple electrical parts" so the majority might understand the proper context. Besides I padded the 53 hour mark with a generous +- 1 hour to account for various materials when in reality the plus-minus margin for most cases is 30 minutes.

Besides, you could always get out your sensitive measuring stop watch to see if these things might be true? But for the sake of objectivity I'd suggest borrowing somebody else's ears while you still get to press the start and stop button.

 

[DaveC]

It is a remarkable thing... that despite differing construction, amount and rate of current going through it... that there is an internal clock that makes them all behave that way at this hourly marker.

That's definitely not the case, different parts take shorter or longer depending on their design and materials used.

---------------

Teflon takes a really long time, although you may see large changes quickly it'll take 500+ hours to get to the final destination. I've found most people don't hear the later changes but some do and they tell me the exact same thing about how the burn in changes the sound, which is more than a little bit telling...

Litz wire sounds horrible at first as there is a ton of dielectric surface area to burn-in but the enamel insulation burns in faster vs teflon.

Shipping, or even moving a cable causes the need for more burn-in, shippping might take 24 hours to recover, moving a cable might only take a couple hours to go back to the way it was.

Most brand new components sound horrible for the first few hours, and like most things they rapidly improve but it still takes hundreds of hours to sound their best... but you never know how much the unit has been tested at the factory... those who build their own components are very familiar with how bad they are at first.

Parts with rhodium plating take much longer vs gold plating, and they do an odd thing in that they go back and forth, one minute they may sound fine, the next they sound dark and closed-in... this goes on for a long time and is very annoying.

Anything that I sell gets a good bit of burn-in either in my system or on an AudioDharma cable cooker.

I do think acclimation is an issue but it doesn't take that long for a listener to adjust and it doesn't explain burn-in, and it doesn't account for the fact that MANY of my customers describe what they hear wrt burn-in in almost exactly the same way.

 

[caesar]

Gentlemen, I appreciate the replies - very interesting stuff! I am too under the opinion that a "better" componenent should be better out of the box. But the Dude's post make me wonder about the case when something is cloudy or veiled because it's not broken in...

 

[caesar]

It is a remarkable thing... that despite differing construction, amount and rate of current going through it... that there is an internal clock that makes them all behave that way at this hourly marker.

Hey Amir,

I appreciate you chiming in, especially because you think differently about this stuff than I (as well most others here) do.

I think I can guess your thoughts on digital break-in, but I do wonder what your thoughts are on stuff like electrolytic caps in amps, etc. Thanks in advance

 

[microstrip]

(...) your thoughts on digital break-in (...)

Curious that you address digital beak-in - I was just reading in the DCS Vivaldi specification that it includes a pink noise modulated generator to help break-in. DCS seem to be break-in believers.

 

[Robh3606]

Every electrical part exhibits parametric changes after burn in. It is easily measurable well documented and understood. The question is are the parametric shifts audible.

Rob

 

[fas42]

I think I can guess your thoughts on digital break-in, but I do wonder what your thoughts are on stuff like electrolytic caps in amps, etc. Thanks in advance

I'm not Amir, , but electrolytic caps are a very easy, trivial one. A key parasitic behaviour for these is the effective series resistance, ESR, and this can cause major changes in the effective, audible performance of, say, power supplies, if it alters. Guess what? Unlike most parasitics, this actually improves with temperature - the warmer the internals of the capacitors, the lower this resistance, and the more a part of the circuit that is highly dependent on this value will benefit.

 

[Speedskater]

When does burn-in end and burn-out start?

 

[stehno]

That's definitely not the case, different parts take shorter or longer depending on their design and materials used.

---------------

Teflon takes a really long time, although you may see large changes quickly it'll take 500+ hours to get to the final destination. I've found most people don't hear the later changes but some do and they tell me the exact same thing about how the burn in changes the sound, which is more than a little bit telling...

Litz wire sounds horrible at first as there is a ton of dielectric surface area to burn-in but the enamel insulation burns in faster vs teflon.

Shipping, or even moving a cable causes the need for more burn-in, shippping might take 24 hours to recover, moving a cable might only take a couple hours to go back to the way it was.

Most brand new components sound horrible for the first few hours, and like most things they rapidly improve but it still takes hundreds of hours to sound their best... but you never know how much the unit has been tested at the factory... those who build their own components are very familiar with how bad they are at first.

Parts with rhodium plating take much longer vs gold plating, and they do an odd thing in that they go back and forth, one minute they may sound fine, the next they sound dark and closed-in... this goes on for a long time and is very annoying.

Anything that I sell gets a good bit of burn-in either in my system or on an AudioDharma cable cooker.

I do think acclimation is an issue but it doesn't take that long for a listener to adjust and it doesn't explain burn-in, and it doesn't account for the fact that MANY of my customers describe what they hear wrt burn-in in almost exactly the same way.

I had no idea Teflon was a conductive material requiring electrical burn-in. I've never burned in Teflon though I've burned in copper and silver with teflon dialectric but their burn-in hour times seemed no different than with other dialectrics. Maybe you could provide some real world examples???

You bring up a good point in that some cables, when moved (even when they remain connected), can lose some of their musicality and then take some time to regain that. The Audio Tekne ic's, a Litz wire, was such a case.

As for your comments regarding brand new components sounding horrible for just the first few hours and then rapidly improve, well, I don't recall a single experience like that. Unless you consider 100-150 hours the rough equivalent of "the first few hours".

 

[Folsom]

Teflon is an insulator.

 

[DaveC]

I had no idea Teflon was a conductive material requiring electrical burn-in. I've never burned in Teflon though I've burned in copper and silver with teflon dialectric but their burn-in hour times seemed no different than with other dialectrics. Maybe you could provide some real world examples???

You bring up a good point in that some cables, when moved (even when they remain connected), can lose some of their musicality and then take some time to regain that. The Audio Tekne ic's, a Litz wire, was such a case.

As for your comments regarding brand new components sounding horrible for just the first few hours and then rapidly improve, well, I don't recall a single experience like that. Unless you consider 100-150 hours the rough equivalent of "the first few hours".

The relationship between the conductor and dielectric is the bulk of what burn-in entails. Teflon insulated parts take far longer than others to burn-in, see teflon v-caps, teflon wire, etc... It takes about 500 hours. I have plenty of evidence to support this as I sell both litz wire cables as well as cables made with teflon insulated wire...

I've built a bunch of components myself so I get to experience the first few hours, most do not as the component is usually tested in the factory. It still takes 100s of hours to stabilize but the first few hours are rather extreme.

 

[amirm]

Hey Amir,

I appreciate you chiming in, especially because you think differently about this stuff than I (as well most others here) do.

I think I can guess your thoughts on digital break-in, but I do wonder what your thoughts are on stuff like electrolytic caps in amps, etc. Thanks in advance

Hi Caesar. I am too old and cranky on this topic to be asked about it. So everyone else, please ignore.

Three points, one philosophical:

1. Equipment better meet their spec and subjective sound fidelity when you get it. If it doesn't after you pay thousands of dollars, I would move on. If such burn-in is required, it should be done by the manufacturer and not on my dime and time. I.e. Jack is right.

2. Individual components may change electrical characteristics with time. These changes are highly complex and unpredictable. Even more unpredictable is the fact that every electrical component already comes with wide variation (relative to these changes) when you source them. A 1% resistor is thought to be "precision resistor" and that is a heck of a lot of variation when you consider how many resistors are in your electronics, many of which are not spec'ed at 1%. Electrolytic caps are shipped with very large variations. Manufacturers try to hand match some components (e.g. output transistors) but there is not enough people in the world to hand match all the components in one amplifier!

Thankfully, circuits are designed to be highly invariant in these regards. And if there is variation, there is no telling if things get worse, instead of better with use.

3. Our hearing is highly elastic. One minute we hear minute detail because we are paying attention, another minute we are not. In my case my allergies go up and down causing severe changes to my high frequency detection. Such variations are huge and provable. Relying on such to determine atomic level changes in components is just crazy to me. If changes exist at component level, then you need to use invariant and much more sensitive tools to measure it (i.e. instrumentation). Using your ear would mean performing brain surgery on yourself.

Improper conclusions drawn on our faulty hearing impression explains why burn-in process is used. We think XYZ upgrade should make things sound better. We deploy it and it doesn't do that. We then wait and read into it said changes, validating two faulty promises.

Told you I was too old and cranky on this topic.

 

[DaveC]

2. Individual components may change electrical characteristics with time. These changes are highly complex and unpredictable.

This isn't true. Changes due to burn-in are generally understood and very predictable.

 

[stehno]

The relationship between the conductor and dielectric is the bulk of what burn-in entails. Teflon insulated parts take far longer than others to burn-in, see teflon v-caps, teflon wire, etc... It takes about 500 hours. I have plenty of evidence to support this as I sell both litz wire cables as well as cables made with teflon insulated wire...

I've built a bunch of components myself so I get to experience the first few hours, most do not as the component is usually tested in the factory. It still takes 100s of hours to stabilize but the first few hours are rather extreme.

Why does the dielectric surrounding the wire have an effect on the amount of time required to "burn-in" the wire for which current passes? When Teflon is used, isn't it used in such a way as to provide much air between the dielectric and the conductive wire? In other words, the further away the dielectric from the wire, wouldn't the dielectric be less influential on a wire's behavior?

I've burned in probably no less than 20 different IC's over the past 15 years, of which had various dielectrics and prices ranging from $100 to $3500 per pair and most always 1M lengths, including at least one pair with Teflon (Darwin) and I think there was another. Yet, I don't recall a single one of those burn-ins taking roughly any longer than the others. Certainly not the 20 days you purport.

Let's get specific. If I auditioned a brand new 1M XLR pair of your best IC's, what is the rough time period required to achieve full burn-in? And what audible distinctions might I encounter along the way prior to achieving full burn-in?

 

[thedudeabides]

When does burn-in end and burn-out start?

With all due respect, how does your comment contribute to the discussion at hand?

 

[stehno]

Hi Caesar. I am too old and cranky on this topic to be asked about it. So everyone else, please ignore.

Three points, one philosophical:

1. Equipment better meet their spec and subjective sound fidelity when you get it. If it doesn't after you pay thousands of dollars, I would move on. If such burn-in is required, it should be done by the manufacturer and not on my dime and time. I.e. Jack is right.

2. Individual components may change electrical characteristics with time. These changes are highly complex and unpredictable. Even more unpredictable is the fact that every electrical component already comes with wide variation (relative to these changes) when you source them. A 1% resistor is thought to be "precision resistor" and that is a heck of a lot of variation when you consider how many resistors are in your electronics, many of which are not spec'ed at 1%. Electrolytic caps are shipped with very large variations. Manufacturers try to hand match some components (e.g. output transistors) but there is not enough people in the world to hand match all the components in one amplifier!

Thankfully, circuits are designed to be highly invariant in these regards. And if there is variation, there is no telling if things get worse, instead of better with use.

3. Our hearing is highly elastic. One minute we hear minute detail because we are paying attention, another minute we are not. In my case my allergies go up and down causing severe changes to my high frequency detection. Such variations are huge and provable. Relying on such to determine atomic level changes in components is just crazy to me. If changes exist at component level, then you need to use invariant and much more sensitive tools to measure it (i.e. instrumentation). Using your ear would mean performing brain surgery on yourself.

Improper conclusions drawn on our faulty hearing impression explains why burn-in process is used. We think XYZ upgrade should make things sound better. We deploy it and it doesn't do that. We then wait and read into it said changes, validating two faulty promises.

Told you I was too old and cranky on this topic.

You're funny.