How much of burn-in/ break-in (in hours) is objective vs. getting used to sound?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
If the measured change is consistent with known audibility thresholds then no. The burden of proof here is always on the positive assertion. (You cannot prove a negative.) If no one can show you an objective listening test that demonstrates audibility, and no one can show you a measured change in output that would be consistent with audibility thresholds, then you are on pretty safe ground in concluding that, so far as we can tell, this just isn't audible.
New evidence can change this, of course. But the point is there isn't even any old evidence against it.
I was referring to his clients, not Mr Meitner. It's not outside the realm of possibility to think that perhaps, just perhaps, there are larger, more pressing issues for large studios to worry about than gear "burning in" etc.
Sorry I wasn't clear. That's what I was asking. How do you know if Mr. Meitner's clients don't care about burn in?
Depending on the studio client, some may be very concerned about break in and its potential impact on sound quality. Seems to me that sound quality could be a very large, pressing and important issue in a recording studio.
Depending on the studio client, some may be very concerned about break in and its potential impact on sound quality. Seems to me that sound quality could be a very large, pressing and important issue in a recording studio.
Sorry I wasn't clear. That's what I was asking. How do you know if Mr. Meitner's clients don't care about burn in?
Depending on the studio client, some may be very concerned about break in and its potential impact on sound quality. Seems to me that sound quality could be a very large, pressing and important issue in a recording studio.
I doubt studio's have any concerns for sonic apparition tales concocted by [Edited out] audiophiles. Sound quality is a pressing matter due to "burn in", you say? That's funny, "thedude". Very funny.
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I said different, did not say more demanding. Do the spacecrafts have stereo systems?No not in this case exact same application we are taking wires and cables. If you mean audio is a more demanding application you couldn't be more wrong.
Rob
somestimes not even the mastering studios can explain 'burn in'...but it did not take long to find one that does it before they start work....just skip to the bold quote from the founder of Zampol Productions.
Zampol Productions: Mastering Moves On Up to the Lower East Side
August 3rd, 2015 by David Weiss
Milestones are abounding for Oscar Zambrano.
This New York City mastering engineer is smiling because he’s just completed his 100th project of the year in mid-July, a new album for singer-songwriter Jo Kroger. But that’s not the only magic number that’s working for him now.
Zambrano is also hoping that the third time’s a charm when it comes to locations for his mastering practice – and there’s every reason to believe he’s chosen wisely. His freshly minted room is part of the quietly successful complex called 2nd Story Sound, a lower East side audio facility where personalities and service offerings are converging perfectly.
After having mastering suites in the former Sorcerer Sound space, and Crushing Music before that, Zambrano’s new address seems like a dream come true. There is a steady flow of artists, engineers, producers, and projects coming in and out of the building – a seemingly long-lost set of conditions conducive to both commerce and social well-being.
Zambrano, whose credits include Loudon Wainwright III, Sufjan Stevens, Eldar Djangirov, and the new cast recording for An American in Paris, is glad to have found such an optimal situation 12 years into his career. “It’s a good fit for me because the upgrade was really nice – it’s a bigger mastering room, plus a lounge and a kitchen,” he says. “But the main thing is the vibe that we have. Other musicians and engineers are around – that’s something that doesn’t happen much anymore. Everyone is very friendly and makes a point to hang. Now they have a mastering facility here and they can do that in-house. In turn, I can also hire them for recording.”
Enter into Zambrano’s inner sanctum, which is officially known as Zampol Productions, and a highly accurate listening environment is assured.
The room was designed and built by Zambrano and MSR Chief Engineer Brad Leigh, creating a space that’s as comfortable as it is technically accurate. Through a process of careful tuning and acoustical treatment, Zambrano achieved the mastering suite he was looking – and listening — for.
“I definitely wanted an honest room,” he explains. “I wanted the high end a little hyped, because I’m not a fan of brittle sounds, so I didn’t want the high end to be hidden. In a lot of project studios now, the big problem is the low end, so I wanted to address that as well.
“Brad, Matt Azevedo from Acentech and I shot the room, naturally, but we wound up using our ears more than technical specs. When a mastering engineer moves, the big thing is getting used to the room. If you really know your speakers well, then any issues you become aware of you know are with the room, and you can make adjustments accordingly.”
Zambrano's console features z-systems, Dangerous, and Manley among the carefully curated selection.Inside the sweet spot, Zambrano has deployed a relatively tight gear selection to apply his craft. An Antelope Eclipse Mastering AD/DA Converter and Dual 64-bit Acoustically Focused Master Clock is at the center of things. Outboard includes a Manley Vari Mu Limiter Compressor (mastering version with TBar Mod); Z-Systems zq-1 Stereo Digital Parametric Equalizer, z-CL6 Six Channel Mastering Dynamic Processor, z-Q6 Six Channel Mastering Equalizer, and Z-16 Digital Detangler; a Dangerous BAX EQ; and Waves L2 hardware unit.
Zambrano likes to engineer as well, and conveniently there is an assortment of mic pre’s and microphones available across the hall....To make it all audible, Zambrano depends on a pair of custom-made DX2 Tyler Acoustics speakers, powered by Bryston SST 4 amps, connected with custom speaker cable. “I explained what the room is like to Tyler, and he custom made a pair of DX2’s for me,” recalls Zambrano. “He said, ‘If you don’t like it, send them back and will try something else.’
He built them, shipped them over six weeks later, and he said to give the system 200 hours of play before everything settles in. I was always a bit skeptical about the burn in but was amazed at how nicely everything came together after a few hundred hours. It sounds really good.”
Zampol Productions: Mastering Moves On Up to the Lower East Side
August 3rd, 2015 by David Weiss
Milestones are abounding for Oscar Zambrano.
This New York City mastering engineer is smiling because he’s just completed his 100th project of the year in mid-July, a new album for singer-songwriter Jo Kroger. But that’s not the only magic number that’s working for him now.
Zambrano is also hoping that the third time’s a charm when it comes to locations for his mastering practice – and there’s every reason to believe he’s chosen wisely. His freshly minted room is part of the quietly successful complex called 2nd Story Sound, a lower East side audio facility where personalities and service offerings are converging perfectly.
After having mastering suites in the former Sorcerer Sound space, and Crushing Music before that, Zambrano’s new address seems like a dream come true. There is a steady flow of artists, engineers, producers, and projects coming in and out of the building – a seemingly long-lost set of conditions conducive to both commerce and social well-being.
Zambrano, whose credits include Loudon Wainwright III, Sufjan Stevens, Eldar Djangirov, and the new cast recording for An American in Paris, is glad to have found such an optimal situation 12 years into his career. “It’s a good fit for me because the upgrade was really nice – it’s a bigger mastering room, plus a lounge and a kitchen,” he says. “But the main thing is the vibe that we have. Other musicians and engineers are around – that’s something that doesn’t happen much anymore. Everyone is very friendly and makes a point to hang. Now they have a mastering facility here and they can do that in-house. In turn, I can also hire them for recording.”
Enter into Zambrano’s inner sanctum, which is officially known as Zampol Productions, and a highly accurate listening environment is assured.
The room was designed and built by Zambrano and MSR Chief Engineer Brad Leigh, creating a space that’s as comfortable as it is technically accurate. Through a process of careful tuning and acoustical treatment, Zambrano achieved the mastering suite he was looking – and listening — for.
“I definitely wanted an honest room,” he explains. “I wanted the high end a little hyped, because I’m not a fan of brittle sounds, so I didn’t want the high end to be hidden. In a lot of project studios now, the big problem is the low end, so I wanted to address that as well.
“Brad, Matt Azevedo from Acentech and I shot the room, naturally, but we wound up using our ears more than technical specs. When a mastering engineer moves, the big thing is getting used to the room. If you really know your speakers well, then any issues you become aware of you know are with the room, and you can make adjustments accordingly.”
Zambrano's console features z-systems, Dangerous, and Manley among the carefully curated selection.Inside the sweet spot, Zambrano has deployed a relatively tight gear selection to apply his craft. An Antelope Eclipse Mastering AD/DA Converter and Dual 64-bit Acoustically Focused Master Clock is at the center of things. Outboard includes a Manley Vari Mu Limiter Compressor (mastering version with TBar Mod); Z-Systems zq-1 Stereo Digital Parametric Equalizer, z-CL6 Six Channel Mastering Dynamic Processor, z-Q6 Six Channel Mastering Equalizer, and Z-16 Digital Detangler; a Dangerous BAX EQ; and Waves L2 hardware unit.
Zambrano likes to engineer as well, and conveniently there is an assortment of mic pre’s and microphones available across the hall....To make it all audible, Zambrano depends on a pair of custom-made DX2 Tyler Acoustics speakers, powered by Bryston SST 4 amps, connected with custom speaker cable. “I explained what the room is like to Tyler, and he custom made a pair of DX2’s for me,” recalls Zambrano. “He said, ‘If you don’t like it, send them back and will try something else.’
He built them, shipped them over six weeks later, and he said to give the system 200 hours of play before everything settles in. I was always a bit skeptical about the burn in but was amazed at how nicely everything came together after a few hundred hours. It sounds really good.”
Goliath can you clarify exactly what your position is.
Are you claiming that because there is no measurable scientific evidence to demonstrate that burn in does affect sound quality then there can be no such effect and that widespread reports of he benefits are of no value or credibility.
Or is that too simplistic an interpretation of your position?
Are you claiming that because there is no measurable scientific evidence to demonstrate that burn in does affect sound quality then there can be no such effect and that widespread reports of he benefits are of no value or credibility.
Or is that too simplistic an interpretation of your position?
Another Burn-In article, this time from Pioneer Pro Audio...
http://www.pioneerproaudio.com/en/studio/casestudies/masahirokawaguchi.html#
CASE STUDIES
Masahiro Kawaguchi
Profile
Engineer who has worked on all of MISIA’s CD and DVD releases. Highly regarded for recording and mixing work across a wide range of genres, including step recording, dance music, live instruments, orchestras and live performances. Also won the 5.1 Surround Sound Award from The Association for Promotion of BS Digital Broadcasting for work on MISIA’s “THE TOUR OF MISIA 2002 WOWOW EDITION” live DVD.
Interview
- Mr. Masahiro Kawaguchi has invited us to MISIA’s private recording studio where he is involved in some mixing work. Can you tell us how you came about installing these RM-07 studio monitor speakers here?
“I first listened to these speakers when I went along to a demo in the sound room at the Pioneer DJ head office. They sound great, so I am still using them. I was invited to the demo by my close friend DJ Soma, and others who also heard the speakers liked how they sounded. I used them here at this studio to burn them in, and felt that they sounded fine after 1 month.”
- One of the main features of the RM-07 is that they are coaxial drivers with the tweeters mounted in the center. After you started using them, could you notice the distinct quality of the coaxial driver units?
“I had never used speakers with coaxial drivers before. This studio has been remodeled a number of times and I had the opportunity to test the new equipment that was installed each time. I installed a different make of mid-range speakers and used them when I was working on processing the surround sound timing for the DVD and Blu-ray releases of MISIA’s live performances. I could really sense how well the phase sounds when I started using the RM-07, but they have a really narrow sweet spot. The sound image sounds perfect when mixing and listening to tracks from the middle of the mixing deck, and their excellent phase is their best quality. The sweet spot is quite narrow, so it is best not to move your chair when dubbing sounds like choruses. We normally play the speakers at quite a high volume, but not so loud that you can’t have a proper conversation.”
- How was the first month when you were burning in the speakers?
“While I was burning in the speakers, I did notice that they were crackling at high frequencies. Tweeters still need burn-in time, even if they are coaxial units.”
http://www.pioneerproaudio.com/en/studio/casestudies/masahirokawaguchi.html#
CASE STUDIES
Masahiro Kawaguchi
Profile
Engineer who has worked on all of MISIA’s CD and DVD releases. Highly regarded for recording and mixing work across a wide range of genres, including step recording, dance music, live instruments, orchestras and live performances. Also won the 5.1 Surround Sound Award from The Association for Promotion of BS Digital Broadcasting for work on MISIA’s “THE TOUR OF MISIA 2002 WOWOW EDITION” live DVD.
Interview
- Mr. Masahiro Kawaguchi has invited us to MISIA’s private recording studio where he is involved in some mixing work. Can you tell us how you came about installing these RM-07 studio monitor speakers here?
“I first listened to these speakers when I went along to a demo in the sound room at the Pioneer DJ head office. They sound great, so I am still using them. I was invited to the demo by my close friend DJ Soma, and others who also heard the speakers liked how they sounded. I used them here at this studio to burn them in, and felt that they sounded fine after 1 month.”
- One of the main features of the RM-07 is that they are coaxial drivers with the tweeters mounted in the center. After you started using them, could you notice the distinct quality of the coaxial driver units?
“I had never used speakers with coaxial drivers before. This studio has been remodeled a number of times and I had the opportunity to test the new equipment that was installed each time. I installed a different make of mid-range speakers and used them when I was working on processing the surround sound timing for the DVD and Blu-ray releases of MISIA’s live performances. I could really sense how well the phase sounds when I started using the RM-07, but they have a really narrow sweet spot. The sound image sounds perfect when mixing and listening to tracks from the middle of the mixing deck, and their excellent phase is their best quality. The sweet spot is quite narrow, so it is best not to move your chair when dubbing sounds like choruses. We normally play the speakers at quite a high volume, but not so loud that you can’t have a proper conversation.”
- How was the first month when you were burning in the speakers?
“While I was burning in the speakers, I did notice that they were crackling at high frequencies. Tweeters still need burn-in time, even if they are coaxial units.”
Another burn-in article from a recording mastering guy (not entirely sure of how big a studio mastering guy he is) but as a mastering/recording person, his perspective is in bold below:
http://www.recording64.com/
Sennheiser HD650 Headphones Review
Posted in: Listening, Mastering, Mixing, Reviews
Sennneiser HD650 Reference Class HeadphonesHaving a good pair of headphones will help you in many ways. First, you can hear all those tiny details hidden in your favorite songs, discover new things and enjoy music much more. Second (but not less important), headphones can be an invaluable tool to check your mixes or masters, especially when you don’t have a perfect monitoring environment and you need to be confident on how your song will translate in the real world (HUGE thing!).
Said that, today I want to tell you something about my headphones of choice: the Sennheiser HD650’s.
Let’s begin by saying these headphones have been Sennheiser’s flagship for years; they’re meant to be considered Hi-Fi/listening reference class headphones and so they’re supposed to sound good, feel comfortable, be reliable. Is it true? To me, the answer is nothing but a resounding “YES”.
Let me go a little bit deeper with it…
The Sound
If I had to describe these headphones using a straight single word, that word would be “balance”, by no means. That’s exactly what you’ll find in these cans.
...A very important thing to notice is that the HD650’s are “open-back” headphones.
This means there is basically no isolation between your ears (or the headphones) and the outside when you’re wearing them! ... I’m not going to use them while tracking, since everything will bleed out from the cans and picked up by the microphone. That is the downside of “open-back” headphones and we’re fine with that...Especially in the low end, by having an “open cage”, sound waves are free to travel and decay in the distance without causing unwanted resonances and so, better frequency response, definition and overall sound.
Burn-In Time Needed!
When I got these headphones, they weren’t sounding as good as they’re sounding now.
The low end was a bit wrapped and the top end was definitely masked out. There was a a veil in front of it, something similar as having a piece of cloth in between your ear and the driver.
I have to tell you: I felt scared!
How could it be possible to have that kind of limitations on a high-end pair of headphones?
The answer: they simply needed some burn-in time, a long burn-in time, a super long burn-in time…
In the beginning, I was very skeptical about the burn-in point, but then I give it a chance.
I plugged the HD650’s to my old computer, opened up iTunes and set it to repeat playback of my entire library, on shuffle. Then I went back to my business…
Did this for about 7 days stopping it from time to time, for a total run of about 120hours.
Yes, HOURS!
Crazy? Maybe…Believe it or not, now it’s like having another pair of headphones.
They’re really different, they’re really giving me what I was expecting.
Just in case you’re wondering: I know I didn’t get used to the way they sounded, since I did the burn-in the very next day after the purchase and haven’t used the cans meanwhile!
...If you read something around here, you know I’m not the kind of guy who thinks expensive gear will necessarily make your music better. Skills and practice will… but this time I really felt a change of mind was necessary....Sure, they’re not the same thing, but the HD650’s will give you a great and reliable perspective on how music should sound!...
Closing Notes
As you can see from the technical specs above, the HD650’s are built with a nominal impedance of 300?. In a very few words, this means you’ll need to give them a lot of power to make them work....
http://www.recording64.com/
Sennheiser HD650 Headphones Review
Posted in: Listening, Mastering, Mixing, Reviews
Sennneiser HD650 Reference Class HeadphonesHaving a good pair of headphones will help you in many ways. First, you can hear all those tiny details hidden in your favorite songs, discover new things and enjoy music much more. Second (but not less important), headphones can be an invaluable tool to check your mixes or masters, especially when you don’t have a perfect monitoring environment and you need to be confident on how your song will translate in the real world (HUGE thing!).
Said that, today I want to tell you something about my headphones of choice: the Sennheiser HD650’s.
Let’s begin by saying these headphones have been Sennheiser’s flagship for years; they’re meant to be considered Hi-Fi/listening reference class headphones and so they’re supposed to sound good, feel comfortable, be reliable. Is it true? To me, the answer is nothing but a resounding “YES”.
Let me go a little bit deeper with it…
The Sound
If I had to describe these headphones using a straight single word, that word would be “balance”, by no means. That’s exactly what you’ll find in these cans.
...A very important thing to notice is that the HD650’s are “open-back” headphones.
This means there is basically no isolation between your ears (or the headphones) and the outside when you’re wearing them! ... I’m not going to use them while tracking, since everything will bleed out from the cans and picked up by the microphone. That is the downside of “open-back” headphones and we’re fine with that...Especially in the low end, by having an “open cage”, sound waves are free to travel and decay in the distance without causing unwanted resonances and so, better frequency response, definition and overall sound.
Burn-In Time Needed!
When I got these headphones, they weren’t sounding as good as they’re sounding now.
The low end was a bit wrapped and the top end was definitely masked out. There was a a veil in front of it, something similar as having a piece of cloth in between your ear and the driver.
I have to tell you: I felt scared!
How could it be possible to have that kind of limitations on a high-end pair of headphones?
The answer: they simply needed some burn-in time, a long burn-in time, a super long burn-in time…
In the beginning, I was very skeptical about the burn-in point, but then I give it a chance.
I plugged the HD650’s to my old computer, opened up iTunes and set it to repeat playback of my entire library, on shuffle. Then I went back to my business…
Did this for about 7 days stopping it from time to time, for a total run of about 120hours.
Yes, HOURS!
Crazy? Maybe…Believe it or not, now it’s like having another pair of headphones.
They’re really different, they’re really giving me what I was expecting.
Just in case you’re wondering: I know I didn’t get used to the way they sounded, since I did the burn-in the very next day after the purchase and haven’t used the cans meanwhile!
...If you read something around here, you know I’m not the kind of guy who thinks expensive gear will necessarily make your music better. Skills and practice will… but this time I really felt a change of mind was necessary....Sure, they’re not the same thing, but the HD650’s will give you a great and reliable perspective on how music should sound!...
Closing Notes
As you can see from the technical specs above, the HD650’s are built with a nominal impedance of 300?. In a very few words, this means you’ll need to give them a lot of power to make them work....
Hello Bob
Please explain the science of dielectric burn-in?? I work in the electronics industry and have been screening components for use in manned space flight and satellites for over 30 years. Part of screening for the components is burn-in but we are talking resistors, capacitors, inductors and all active components. Do you know how much burn in wire and cables get?? Zero, it is used right off the spool. So if no burn in is required to fly in space because there is no significant change why is it needed here??
Rob
The burn-in commonly carried in the electronic industry is usually carried in different conditions and with different objectives from audiophile burn-in. The burn-in or artificial aging of components is usually a measure to minimize early failure rates.
However, some manufacturers also burn-in components, such as precision resistors to make them long term stable - a clear indication that something physical happens during the burn-in phase.
Sometimes the listener's mood, etc, will be a factor - but not always. A telling situation is when one is feeling very out of sorts, for some completely non audio related reason - but this doesn't make the audio playback come across badly, if it's working well.
The ear/brain interface could be responsible for perceived changes, but experience and careful investigation, over a long period will sort out the false leads from the valid. Personally, I use "poor" or stressful recordings to make differences obvious, my mind has far too little leverage with the material presented, to fool my perceptions.
In most of these situations it is almost impossible to set up a proper testing environment: it would require the whole system and environment to be duplicated, and the two versions to run synchronously, accessed via soundproof separations. Anything less than this introduces too many confounders - and results would always be meaningless.
Hello Micro
Basically it is to weed out early failures but it is also done to verify that the parts basic characteristics are stable over time.
I don't think anyone denies that there are measurable changes in the parts. That said in my industry we test the heck out parts between qualification and part screening to verify part stability. If you look at any of the component specs any delta requirements are done between the mid point of the burn-in and final test. The majority of the changes happen early on and typically a part is stable after the first half.
Not so with wires and cables. There may be a few feet of wire that gets tested on a spool but there is nothing done to the balance.
So what is audiophile burn-in??
Rob
Hello Micro
Basically it is to weed out early failures but it is also done to verify that the parts basic characteristics are stable over time.
I don't think anyone denies that there are measurable changes in the parts. That said in my industry we test the heck out parts between qualification and part screening to verify part stability. If you look at any of the component specs any delta requirements are done between the mid point of the burn-in and final test. The majority of the changes happen early on and typically a part is stable after the first half.
Not so with wires and cables. There may be a few feet of wire that gets tested on a spool but there is nothing done to the balance.
So what is audiophile burn-in??
Rob
Can I conclude that you accept the typical audiophile burn-in of components and equipment, and are only questioning cable burn-in?
Hello Micro
No not really I am very skeptical. Here is the rub, parts do change over time and temperature but usually not enough to take a part out of it's tolerance range. My gripe is even with accelerated aging, which part screening does do, the parts are typically still in tolerance. So if you have a 5% resistor it will still be a 5% resistor after screening but it will have a shift in value. If the design can tolerate a 5% part then this shift in value should not be audible. Basically you can have a potential 10% value change from resistor to resistor right out of the box. This is much more than you would get after a couple of hundred hours of operation. You have to remember that in any application parts are not used close to their max ratings for reliability. In part screening you are intentionally hammering them to weed out potential failures. So in real world applications you should see even less change than screening.
You have hundreds of parts all shifting slightly in value that all interact with each other. Why does it always go well? Especially when part tolerance swamps any part value shifts due to "burn-in".
Rob
Hello Micro
Basically it is to weed out early failures but it is also done to verify that the parts basic characteristics are stable over time.
I don't think anyone denies that there are measurable changes in the parts. That said in my industry we test the heck out parts between qualification and part screening to verify part stability. If you look at any of the component specs any delta requirements are done between the mid point of the burn-in and final test. The majority of the changes happen early on and typically a part is stable after the first half.
Not so with wires and cables. There may be a few feet of wire that gets tested on a spool but there is nothing done to the balance.
So what is audiophile burn-in??
Rob
Conversely, just because wire burn-in isn't a factor wrt the functioning of aerospace equipment doesn't mean it isn't audible in a high end audio system. My experience is wire burn in effects and audibility depend on the construction and materials used in the wire/cable. Specifically, surface area of the wire/dielectric interface and dielectric material seem to be the largest factors. I use litz wire, which has a lot of surface area and burn in is fairly extreme and resulted in my customers contacting me about it before I used a cable burner before shipping. After the cable burner, no more contacts. It's amazing how bad the litz wire sounds for the first few hours... I think this may be provable with simple frequency response measurements. I'm about to build a new litz wire speaker cable for a customer, I'll see if I can get results. I have a pair of Pioneer S-1EX with the TAD coax driver, it should work well to close-mic that driver and get decent results >400 Hz. I think 4 hours on the burner and 2 hours playing music should be enough to accomplish the great majority of burn-in and I can leave the mic in exactly the same place for the 6 hours without a problem.
Hello Micro
No not really I am very skeptical. Here is the rub, parts do change over time and temperature but usually not enough to take a part out of it's tolerance range. My gripe is even with accelerated aging, which part screening does do, the parts are typically still in tolerance. So if you have a 5% resistor it will still be a 5% resistor after screening but it will have a shift in value. If the design can tolerate a 5% part then this shift in value should not be audible. Basically you can have a 10% value change from resistor to resistor right out of the box. This is much more than you would get after a couple of hundred hours of operation. You have to remember that in any application parts are not used close to their max ratings for reliability. In part screening you are intentionally hammering them to weed out potential failures. So in real world applications you should see even less change than screening.
You have hundreds of parts all shifting slightly in value that all interact with each other. Why does it always go well. Especially when part tolerance swamps any part value shifts due to "burn-in".
Rob
Well, if you are just considering the tolerances of the basic units, we do not need to go on debating. Nothing useful will come from it. I will not learn anything from you and you will not learn anything from me. I am not here to debate rocket science and satellites, but high-end audio. It seems you are an high end skeptical - something I respect - but we we are at extreme positions. Thanks anyway.
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