I heard my first 200k vinyl system today

Next time you're at Lyric, you can come by and hear a real analog system, both vinyl and tape. Not quite 200K but close, esp. if the Magico S5s arrive shortly. Otherwise will have to slum with the ML Summit-Xs. I'm only four blocks away. :)

PS. Much of the noise you complain about is a function of the electronics, table and especially the arm not to mention stylus profile. The Atlas and Proteus are among the most quiet cartridges I've ever heard.

This was my thought too. What you really need to do is hear good vinyl at someone's house in a well set up and conceived system. It will be much more relaxing and you can be more candid that you can at a place like Lyric.

Also, if you are asking for advice about which LPs to bring to an audition, you must not own many or listen to many. I would take up Myles on his offer, listen to some great music and sound at his place, visit some other people and ask them about how to get started in analog. Then shop around the dealers to hear specific tables, if you can.

Done well, analog is extremely good. And that does not mean it has to be expensive.
 
Mike D not owner lol. And the turn table and cartridge were 5 k. The speakers alone were 90K. Not that expensive speakers is every thing. And thanks for the replys. And I intend to let this run it's course and at the very least get an education on the topic. And yes I do have preconceived notions due to reading. But I am not prejudging anything. Too many people love vinyl for it to junk and outdated completely. As I evolve in life with audio it is normal to be curious . As I own a good DAC to compare to in want to see where the line is drawn in the sand so to speak. What I will be is a nay sayer of one or the other . Neutrality is king in this not waging war . And a big thanks to all who have posted so far.

Al
 
Al,

Don't expect vinyl miracles to happen in shop demos and shows. Shops need to change systems very often, and seldom have the time to optimize them. By the time they are getting it properly a customers asks for another cartridge or tonearm, or they need some part of the system. And unless the quality of the recording and pressing are worth listening I will also prefer digital.

I have to say that I could not decide if your OP was asking advice about vinyl or Lyric. ;)
 
Al M., It's good to know I'm not the only one.

You're not... I do have a table and occasionally listen to an LP. That's all. 99% Digital now As soon as a CD is acquired, ripped to a hard disk itself backed-up by two (2) NAS...

back to the schedule discussion it promises to be interesting.
 
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RIP Mike Kay

Other companies that Mike Kay was responsible for include Mark Levinson (he seed funded the company by pre-paying for the first couple of of production runs) and Infinity. Mike was also partially responsible for Genesis. He was one of the 4 dealers/distributors I met before deciding to put down money to buy the assets. He told me that there are too many Genesis owners out there who love their speakers to let the company die and there were too many music lovers (like me at the time) who hadn't yet bought their pair of Genesis speakers.

One of the reasons I came into this business was that he promised that Lyric would support Genesis. Unfortunately, he was the only one of the former Genesis dealers/distributors to keep his promise. Lyric supported Genesis until Mike retired and sold the store.
 
Al, don't do it. you got a taste at lyric of how mundane vinyl can be, it doesn't get any better from there. i'm trying to save you from wasting a colossal amount of time and money chasing your tail. I'll do whatever it takes to dissuade you from taking the plunge, I can think of fifty reasons to reject vinyl for every positive one. it's bad enough for us crate diggers - who've paid our dues - to have new 'diggers come into the fold. competition is bad for the crate digger, we need to resuscitate the RBCD and bring back the "perfect sound forever" slogan perpetuated in the '80s. I implore you, DON'T DO IT!
 
I am not sure what you problem is. If you just like digital better than vinyl, go with God. Buy a quality record and have it cleaned,that will make it dead quiet.
With respect to price it is no guarantor of quality. Mediocrity is available at a premium in any field.
 
Al, don't do it. you got a taste at lyric of how mundane vinyl can be, it doesn't get any better from there. i'm trying to save you from wasting a colossal amount of time and money chasing your tail. I'll do whatever it takes to dissuade you from taking the plunge, I can think of fifty reasons to reject vinyl for every positive one. it's bad enough for us crate diggers - who've paid our dues - to have new 'diggers come into the fold. competition is bad for the crate digger, we need to resuscitate the RBCD and bring back the "perfect sound forever" slogan perpetuated in the '80s. I implore you, DON'T DO IT!

Damn! Puroagave let it slip...and the brotherhood will have it's revenge later. (Puroagave will never win another record auction on Ebay again.)

It's all a conspiracy by the rapacious audio manufacturers to increase demand for vinyl, driving up the price of software to increase obscene corporate profits by stealing money from the poor music loving consumer. They use clever advertising in glossy magazines to fool people into buying useless turntables, tonearms, cartridges, cables and phono preamps instead of a better sounding $100 used CD player.

Al, don't fall for it!
 
I think the thread title name should be amended to say a $6k vinyl rig played on a $195,000 stereo. Clearly you did not hear vinyl anywhere near it's best. Shame on Lyric. You will not get much quiet vinyl that you want digging in bargain bins. You have ebay where you can still get sealed and Near Mint records. Expect to pay for popular titles. You also have tons of reissues that sound wonderful depending on the music genre. Jazz and Classical are reissued very well. Classic Rock is hit and miss.
 
(...) You have ebay where you can still get sealed and Near Mint records. Expect to pay for popular titles. You also have tons of reissues that sound wonderful depending on the music genre. Jazz and Classical are reissued very well. Classic Rock is hit and miss.

Christian,

Please do not teach people about our usual sources! :mad: As you say, there are many reissues for newcomers, old sealed and NM records should be reserved to those who really know they love vinyl. People should be told that buying LPs from eBay is very risky ... :)
 
Help guys. I really do need great vinyl,pics for going back to lyric. I am the first to admit my ignorance in vinyl . And wpuld like to buy one not joking. But I do want to hear it's worth it. With the money I have invested in this hobby already a 5 or 10 k more investment in something that is both cool and great sounding is welcome. Help me pic.

Al

Here are some things to keep in mind with respect to ticks and pops. Although they all originate at the cartridge, what the electronics do with them can have a big effect.

1) In a nutshell, if you want to reduce the effects of ticks and pops, the phono equalizer should be zero feedback and passively equalized. Here's why:

All circuits have something called 'propagation delay'. This is the length of time it takes for a signal to propagate from input to output. Now there are two ways to equalize for the RIAA curve: passive and active. Active EQ means that the EQ is accomplished by the action of a feedback circuit in the preamp. Essentially the feedback is taken from the output and applied back to the input and the EQ processes this feedback signal. Due to the propagation delay of the circuit, the feedback will always arrive just a tad late to actually do the job its supposed to do. As frequency increases, this error becomes more pronounced as the propagation time is a constant.

Essentailly what this means is that the feedback will extend the time signature of high frequencies. This will put emphasis on the tick or pop event, even though the actual measured frequency response is correct on paper.

The only way around that is to passively equalize and avoid feedback in the circuit. The result is that you can have the same bandwidth, but less emphasis on ticks and pops and general surface noise. This will have the effect of sounds emerging from a 'blacker background'.

2) With respect to the pickup: You will find that the better and more adjustable the arm is, the less important your choice of cartridge is. This too will be regarded as blasphemous by some. But to prove or disprove it you will need an arm that really is adjustable. There is a relationship that the arm and cartridge have together. The cartridge has a certainly pliability to the cantilever that is known as 'compliance'. This interacts with the mass of the cartridge and the mass of the arm together, resulting in a resonant frequency. Due to the amplitude and frequency of common warps and other artifacts of the LP surface, it has been found that the ideal resonant frequency lies somewhere between about 7Hz and 12Hz. If the mechanical resonance strays outside of that range mistracking can occur, and of course ticks and pops will become more obvious.

Another aspect of tracking is that if it is insufficient, breakup, manifesting in ticks and pops, can occur during complex or difficult passages. I delineated between the two as they are not the same. A difficult passage may not be complex, but it may pose difficulties to the ability of the arm and cartridge to play well together. One of the classic examples is low frequency information that is out of phase. But midrange information that is out of phase can be problematic as well. If the cartridge is not being managed very well by the arm it can break up while attempting to play such passages, which otherwise do not sound particularly complex.

So I advise get the best arm you can and then you won't have to spend so much on the cartridge! Currently the best bearings of any arm made are in the Triplanar- it has the hardest bearings made worldwide and also are some of the smallest, giving the arm very low 'sticktion' from the bearings. In addition is is very adjustable, including something called 'effective mass' which relates directly to mechanical resonance. This allows the arm to be set up with a wider range of cartridges.

A 3rd issue of ticks and pops is cartridge loading. Here is a rule of thumb: loading resistance affects MM cartridges at audio frequencies. Loading of most MC cartridge occurs at Radio Frequencies and has no effect at audio frequencies as far as the cartridge is concerned. Additionally, its a simple fact that if you don't have your cartridge loaded correctly, ticks and pops will be one of the manifestations.

I'm going to cover MC loading only in this post as its already getting long. When you have a MC cartridge in an arm and hooked up to a preamp, you have created a tuned Radio Frequency circuit known as an RF tank circuit (this will be from the capacitance of the arm and cable wiring, in parallel with the inductance of the cartridge). It is called a tank circuit as it can store energy. The cartridge signal can cause enough excitation of this circuit that it results in RF burst of energy occurring at the input of the preamp. These bursts happen at a very high frequency as the small inductance of the cartridge means that the resulting frequency of the tuned circuit will be at several MHz. If the preamp has troubles with RFI at its input, it will be sensitive to loading. If unloaded, it may sound bright and will have excess ticks and pops.

OTOH, if the preamp is insensitive to RFI, loading the cartridge will hardly have any effect at all. Its important to understand that loading with MC cartridges has everything to do with the preamp, not the cartridge! FWIW, solid state preamps tend to have more issues with RFI due to the greater number of places in the preamp where RFI rectification can occur.

Bottom line: if you are careful with your setup and the design of the electronics, ticks and pops can be dramatically reduced! It is ignorance of the above facts that IMO has caused a great deal of frustration with audiophiles and as a result many of them have abandoned analog altogether.
 
Christian,

Please do not teach people about our usual sources! :mad: As you say, there are many reissues for newcomers, old sealed and NM records should be reserved to those who really know they love vinyl. People should be told that buying LPs from eBay is very risky ... :)

I agree! The place that should be best hidden is Discogs where even extremely rare DJ-quality electronic music is available on vinyl. The sellers there are even more risky to buy from as many of them don't have the volume of eBay to build up good reputation. ;)
 
Somebody else already said it, but the fact remains you did not hear a $200k vinyl set up. You heard a $195k stereo system that had a $5k vinyl rig. Unless I missed it, what is the amount you were looking to spend for table/arm/cartridge/phono preamp?
 
I love pops and ticks. Keeps the OC disordelies away from my vinyl bins.
 
Just returned from NYC. And while my 7 year old is in ninja training I have time to,post. First off again big thanks to all
. I am not out to discredit either digital or pure analog audio. I simply want to here myself why it's still even here and popular with some I think are really knowledgeable in the field of audio reproduction. First up,is Gary of genesis and next Myles . Two people I have not met as yet but from reading seem to be very honest in how all,things audio are. So i will use what ever is offered to me as continued sampling . Next I am not understanding the closed minded of the two camps.
As I grew up on analog at 57 years old the whole vinyl thing is right there with the glowing tubes .
But why such tough opinions that seem abosolute. As I know I will not have answers to stop this I will have my own conclusions made at some point . This seems like a political battle right down party lines.

I am diligently pursuing this and even if I deside not to do this I will at the very least know why some love it and I am sure not why some hate it. I have listened to many ultra hi end digital systems some I liked some I did not. But I hated none simply because it's all taste in the end anyway . Lyric may or may not be the place to deside my fate but it's only the first round behind me. And I need a few more to even begin to form anything. What I need is some shinning examples of what records to ask for ? Help .
As I have some ref redbook cd,s to bring that will put me as to what the system sounds like. Not a fool proof method by any means but a start.

Al
 
Al, take Myles up on his offer I have a hunch his vinyl rig will show you all there is to hear with SOTA LP playback.

I'm not a vinyl apologist, I don't need to defend my preferences and explain away nuisances such as ticks and pops, either you'll get it or you won't. imo, its doesn't take more than a Rega RP8 with an elicit cartridge to prove my point, others may disagree.
 
Allow me to state thank you to Ralph(Atmasphere) for the concise and enlightening post #31-- kudos my man!

Just as aside with the emphasis on the RF side of the MC/Phono and loading criteria--what degradation is being caused --if any by the proliferation of WiFi devices now present in our homes

Wouldn't this be affecting the Analog--in this case--sonics some way-- detrimentally maybe?

Than you

BruceD
 
Just as aside with the emphasis on the RF side of the MC/Phono and loading criteria--what degradation is being caused --if any by the proliferation of WiFi devices now present in our homes

Wouldn't this be affecting the Analog--in this case--sonics some way-- detrimentally maybe?

Than you

BruceD

Oh no, I hope not. The next audio nervosa...unplug-wifi compulsive disorder...lol
 

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