I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!
- Thread starter rockitman
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Tang - Dave, Mike, Ron and Christian have an AS-2000 each.
By my arithmetic, that leaves a sole AS unclaimed.
Are you gonna do the decent thing?
By my arithmetic, that leaves a sole AS unclaimed.
Are you gonna do the decent thing?
my understanding is that some un-named person has claimed that 'other one' already. but they have stayed anonymous as I had intended to do....but could not.
Steve?
I have to say after looking into the AS it's design is awesome. I try to make my own gear as simply as possible, the AS is an ultimate minimalist device imo.
I completely agree.
My personal view is that a turntable is a complex system (an ensemble). To borrow from Nassim Taleb (again), he says:
"The main idea behind complex systems is that the ensemble behaves in ways not predicted by the (individual) components. The interactions matter more than the nature of the units. Studying individual ants will never (one can safely say never for most such situations), never give us an idea on how the ant colony operates. For that, one needs to understand an ant colony as an ant colony, no less, no more, not a collection of ants. This is called an “emergent” property of the whole, by which parts and whole differ because what matters is the interactions between such parts."
As Taleb goes on to say, the problem is that most complex systems react asymmetrically (i.e. non-linearly and unpredictably) to (any) change. The attempts by many manufacturers to “solve" problems associated with vinyl playback (and hi-fi in general) have often resulted in cures that are effectively worse than the disease. A step is taken forward, but without consideration of how that individual step taken by the part creates anomalies that cannot be predicted ahead of time once introduced back into the whole.
Like you say, Mike, the relationship between units has greater significance than any individual unit in isolation.
Best,
853guy
Yep Dave
Slab>
air>
slab w no metal bearing
<heroic motor
It really doesn't get simpler than that
But now the devil is in the details.
That air bearing has to be delicate yet unwavering, that motor has to be an iron grip in a velvet glove.
Everything is simpler but has to be higher performing and uber consistent.
Lord knows what the demands on ancillaries, fetishistic set up, are going to be.
Slab>
air>
slab w no metal bearing
<heroic motor
It really doesn't get simpler than that
But now the devil is in the details.
That air bearing has to be delicate yet unwavering, that motor has to be an iron grip in a velvet glove.
Everything is simpler but has to be higher performing and uber consistent.
Lord knows what the demands on ancillaries, fetishistic set up, are going to be.
Yes indeed. Mik has many turntables, but he also sells off ones that he does not really like. I respect that he seems to always get a new design in for direct comparisons to his references, so he has a lot of experience with different sounds. He has a fascinating collection and an extreme amount of personal experience.
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Mike, this is a fascinating and wonderful description of what we can do as users to both give us a better understanding of our gear and improve our overall music enjoyment. I presume by "tuning" you mean something other than ultimate speed accuracy and consistency, as I have not heard of people confirming these attributes by ear but rather by instrument measurement. I have noticed that when my belt wears and stretches over time, and I replace it with a new one, that I often have to readjust for speed with my measuring device.
I imagine that belt tension in the case of the AS table would effect things like the quality of a note's individual parts: transient, sustain, and decay, and the relationships between musical flow, dynamics, energy, and space. I agree that these qualities are captured by ear and live in the realm of subjective preference. The interaction with the rest of one's system will also be paramount, which is why I suspect you and the other owners may well arrive at very different individual motor/plinth settings, belt types and support solutions. Also fascinating will be your respective choices in arms.
I look forward to reading the many reports that I hope are written in these pages in six months or so. Great stuff!
As I said, the world's greatest and potentially simplest analog playback system (plinth/air/platter w no solid bearing/motor) is SO dependent on setup/ancillaries.
Are we really saying that Sutherland Timeline will be less useful than subjective "tuning"?
Surely that goes against the laws of physics?
Are we really saying that Sutherland Timeline will be less useful than subjective "tuning"?
Surely that goes against the laws of physics?
Marc, this is NOT what I meant to imply. I consider system "tuning" to be quite distinct from accurate and consistent platter speed. I do the former by ear and the latter with the Timeline. It is interesting that Mike has lived with DD tables, known precisely for accurate and consistent speed. There must be something else in play here.
Perhaps Mike can elaborate on what he means by "tuning" and the sonic effects which he considers subjective. I am also interested in exactly how different approaches to belt type (material, compliance) and tension subjectively effect the sound, particularly with this AS 2000 turntable.
David has chosen his belt and tension. What went into that decision and how would he describe it?
Sure Peter
I just find it deeply ironic that what I consider the simplest tt on the planet may have the most complex adjustability on the planet.
It's a "good" set of challenges to have.
I just find it deeply ironic that what I consider the simplest tt on the planet may have the most complex adjustability on the planet.
It's a "good" set of challenges to have.
I have to be cautious here since I'm the student, even the beginning student, when it comes to this subject. my comments related to 'simple, elegance, and less automatic' were just a realization of how I viewed my own evolution of cause and effect, and not any sort of level of wisdom about the process. David had taken the time to explain somewhat about the process of belt adjustment to me. and I must admit I previously was clueless as to how it would work. I assumed there would be some sort of template and it would be what it needed to be.
no; it's like flavoring the food. you adjust it by ear. there are choices of belt materials including thread. I won't go further about the details of that, David can if he wants to.....as I prefer not to reveal my ignorance.
I just felt like here we have what many might view as the ultimate turntable, and it's just so basic, and so rejecting all the tech. just simple as can be, but not simpler.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
The one thing I loved about David's EMT 927 is that it gets to speed in a matter of a few seconds
Exactly what was done here, maybe I should have contacted you first about the power supply and motor controller Francisco
! Right now the belt is so loose that it's almost falling off, barely catching and it still sounds full bodied and solid. I only got the finished motors a little over a week ago and I'm still learning more about them.
david
Marc, that is a very interesting comment. And this is a fascinating thread. I think we have different ideas of what simple means. First, consider the most basic belt drive Rega or Project turntable: plinth, platter, bearing, motor, and belt. Is it not simpler than this new $100K+ table?
I don't think this table is simple at all. It may appear to be simple at first glance because it seems to be comprised of the most basic requirements for a turntable, but that motor, and that controller, and that air-guided platter seem anything but simple. And then, considering the extreme mass, if belt material and tension, and the material one places under the feet, and the type of stand used to support it can have such a profound effect on the sound, this may not be so simple to set up and tune exactly to one's preferences. All that simplicity, mass, and extreme engineering do not seem to make it immune to the influences of peripheral decisions. Even the fascinating discussion from the future owners about their potentially very different isolation and support solutions seems to imply that the environment in which this table operates will have a profound effect on its sound.
Sure, massive bass towers would wreak havoc on lesser turntables, but still, from some current posts, this table would not seem immune to such concerns. I think this AS 2000 has the potential to be an extremely neutral platform on which to spin vinyl. But, it also seems highly tunable and not so immune from its environment.
I am curious about the original design from the 1970s (?). How was it received? Was it outrageously expensive at the time? Were many produced? What did people think of its sound relative to other excellent turntables of the era? Why is the original so rare?
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