I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

[microstrip]

Exactly what was done here, maybe I should have contacted you first about the power supply and motor controller Francisco !



Right now the belt is so loose that it's almost falling off, barely catching and it still sounds full bodied and solid. I only got the finished motors a little over a week ago and I'm still learning more about them.

david

The german company who manufactures your controller has an excellent record of reliable and well engineered products, you are in very good hands.

The static friction coefficient is usually significantly higher than the kinetic one - if you avoid belt slippage at the pulley and platter you possibly can get faster startup. The technique is increasing the motor speed progressively - it should be possible if the designer knows the full system pretty well. Sometime in the past I drove the synchronous motor of my turntable with a laboratory sine oscillator - the platter started very fast because I increased the driving frequency manually - after some time my hand become trained and I became an excellent startup controller.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The german company who manufactures your controller has an excellent record of reliable and well engineered products, you are in very good hands.

The static friction coefficient is usually significantly higher than the kinetic one - if you avoid belt slippage at the pulley and platter you possibly can get faster startup. The technique is increasing the motor speed progressively - it should be possible if the designer knows the full system pretty well. Sometime in the past I drove the synchronous motor of my turntable with a laboratory sine oscillator - the platter started very fast because I increased the driving frequency manually - after some time my hand become trained and I became an excellent startup controller.

which reminds me of a true story....with relevance.

in early 2002 I was hot to trot for a Rockport turntable, and ended up with a somewhat used and abused Sirius II Reference model. which was a belt drive affair; and it's motor was not working exactly correct. it was not able to bring the platter up to speed reliably. at some point it had not been shipped correctly, and the arm had not been properly packed. i had met David the previous year as he sold me my Kharma Exquisite Ref 1D speakers....he was the N.A. distributor.

Andy Payor helped me with the arm; but could not assist with the motor problem. so in stepped David.

turned out he was personally familiar with this particular Rockport, and so gave me great advice. he suggested i purchase (for around $2500 new) a laboratory grade sine oscillator (power supply) which absolutely did the trick and i was able to get the motor to properly reach and keep the speed, although i could only switch it to 45rpm by going into my closet and changing it on the oscillator.

that fall of 2002 i found my 'dream' Sirius III, and the II went to a new home.

15 years later that Rockport Sirius II was still 'out there' and successfully using that sine oscillator.

 

[Tango]

Even the fascinating discussion from the future owners about their potentially very different isolation and support solutions seems to imply that the environment in which this table operates will have a profound effect on its sound.

On this particular matter, I think it derives from two perspective owners who happens to have positive experiences on active anti-vibe platform as they want to stretch the tt's performance to the very last centimeter, not because the tt itself is so very susceptable to listening environment. And I dont think the effect will be profound if profound means as much a difference as say changing a cart.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[PeterA]

On this particular matter, I think it derives from two perspective owners who happens to have positive experiences on active anti-vibe platform as they want to stretch the tt's performance to the very last centimeter, not because the tt itself is so very susceptable to listening environment. And I dont think the effect will be profound if profound means as much a difference as say changing a cart.

Kind regards,
Tang

You may be right, Tang. However, my impression is that it has more to do with the environment and what kind of bass energy is present in the system. MikeL mentioned his massive sub bass towers and his non susupended turntable being in the same room. Rockitman does not have sub woofers and has a suspended turntable. I agree that they both report very positive results from their experience with active isolation. Another post mentioned how bass energy travels through concrete slabs and then travels up to effect a turntable's performance, seemingly irrespective of the mass of the turntable. Isolation from both air borne and floor borne vibrations would seem to add to the turntable's ultimate performance potential.

 

[ddk]

On this particular matter, I think it derives from two perspective owners who happens to have positive experiences on active anti-vibe platform as they want to stretch the tt's performance to the very last centimeter, not because the tt itself is so very susceptable to listening environment. And I dont think the effect will be profound if profound means as much a difference as say changing a cart.

Kind regards,
Tang

My concern is that this type of active might actually have a negative affect on the sound. To Mike's point in regard to subsonic activity from his subs I see the cartridge a lot more suceptible than 500lb is solid steel, but we'll see.
david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

On this particular matter, I think it derives from two perspective owners who happens to have positive experiences on active anti-vibe platform as they want to stretch the tt's performance to the very last centimeter, not because the tt itself is so very susceptable to listening environment. And I dont think the effect will be profound if profound means as much a difference as say changing a cart.

Kind regards,
Tang

hi Tang,

it's possible i'm chasing windmills.



OTOH, my current 120 pound turntable had considerable audible distortion when used with it's own dedicated passive decoupling shelf once I got my current twin tower speakers (no noticeable issue at all with the previous quite bass capable speakers). the Herzan active device eliminated that distortion and pushed the overall performance to another subtle level higher. i'd say eliminating that distortion was at least equal to a change in cartridge for my current tt; analogous to maybe tightening a loose cartridge mount. the other subtle improvements in focus and delicacy maybe not quite.

so we don't really know the degree of benefit I might receive from the Herzan active table with the AS-2000. what we do know is that few have any experience with turntables in close proximity such extreme bass sources; and then solved the problem in place. so my guess is educated at least, but not certain. considering the performance realm of the AS-2000, any clear improvement found would be worth it.

 

[Tango]

My concern is that this type of active might actually have a negative affect on the sound. To Mike's point in regard to subsonic activity from his subs I see the cartridge a lot more suceptible than 500lb is solid steel, but we'll see.
david

Take a break. Go get a massage Khun David .

Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My concern is that this type of active might actually have a negative affect on the sound. To Mike's point in regard to subsonic activity from his subs I see the cartridge a lot more suceptible than 500lb is solid steel, but we'll see.
david

I can always turn off the active decoupling.

 

[Tango]

My concern is that this type of active might actually have a negative affect on the sound. To Mike's point in regard to subsonic activity from his subs I see the cartridge a lot more suceptible than 500lb is solid steel, but we'll see.
david

I think I get your philosophy. You are not in favor of stop-start-stop-start or any counter acting kind of mechanism like computer control speed. Active anti-vibe kind of does that.

Tang

 

[Tango]

When time come, we shall see if the AF1 premium with upgrade motor and platter will mildly "whip butt" David's Hammer or get total "ass kick" instead.

Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

When time come, we shall see if the AF1 premium with upgrade motor and platter will mildly "whip butt" David's Hammer or get total "ass kick" instead.

Tang

interesting question.

I know how the stock AF1 sounded compared to the previous model AS-1000 side by side (different cartridges thou). feedback I got from one who heard the new motor/platter on the AF1 was very, very, positive.

I suppose only David could relate the 2 starting points and conclude the finish point. David will have half the equation soon enough.

 

[Lagonda]

My concern is that this type of active might actually have a negative affect on the sound. To Mike's point in regard to subsonic activity from his subs I see the cartridge a lot more suceptible than 500lb is solid steel, but we'll see.
david

Congratulations with an amazing turntable design, looks fantastic and must truly sound fantastic! Loyd Walker has come to the same conclusions with regards to air bearing, linear power supply and high mass plater (only 75 lbs) driven by belt/tread.
His latest upgrades included active air suspension, but his tt only weighs about half of yours. Keep up the good work!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, Marc here aka the guy who likes to spend yr cash .
You're a guy who's gone further than anyone to get to the next NEXT level.
Dac investigation to find the absolute cutting edge.
Currently about to go deep into Troy Elite territory.
And now twds the margins of what's possible w analog.
Fwiw, these margins are so transcendental, yet so sensitive to getting things wrong, that surely the preparation is all.
And so surely you could consider going beyond the standard solutions of better, and best, isoln platforms like uber Herzan.
What I mean is that you know how compromising those EA sub towers are to swamping yr room w bass vibrations, and that AS is going to be pretty close.
Surely even if the uber Herzan deals w floor borne vibns successfully, it can do abs nothing for airborne vibns from those EA towers.
Mike, surely it's time to get the tt ie AS out of the room, where it'll be much more successfully immune to that noise, and the uber Herzan can be a more comprehensive solution?

 

[Blue58]

You'll need long cables from Norfolk to the US.

 

[bonzo75]

You'll need long cables from Norfolk to the US.

Lol

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hey guys, if Mike is prepared to go the extra mile, I'm prepared to do my bit too.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, Marc here aka the guy who likes to spend yr cash .
You're a guy who's gone further than anyone to get to the next NEXT level.
Dac investigation to find the absolute cutting edge.
Currently about to go deep into Troy Elite territory.
And now twds the margins of what's possible w analog.
Fwiw, these margins are so transcendental, yet so sensitive to getting things wrong, that surely the preparation is all.
And so surely you could consider going beyond the standard solutions of better, and best, isoln platforms like uber Herzan.
What I mean is that you know how compromising those EA sub towers are to swamping yr room w bass vibrations, and that AS is going to be pretty close.
Surely even if the uber Herzan deals w floor borne vibns successfully, it can do abs nothing for airborne vibns from those EA towers.
Mike, surely it's time to get the tt ie AS out of the room, where it'll be much more successfully immune to that noise, and the uber Herzan can be a more comprehensive solution?

Marc,

done the 'headphone thing' where I listen with headphones verses speakers both with the Herzan to see if the difference is audible? i.e. is speaker related air borne feedback evident?

nope!!

not saying there is not a difference on some levels, only that it's not audible with the Herzan in place.

and......for me easy access to music is essential. anything that makes me hesitant to switch records is an impediment to listening, and not going there. I respect that others might prefer to have gear in another room for any multitude of reasons besides performance. space, WAF factor, clutter, children, pets, etc. just not happening in the barn.

and.....listening to vinyl in my room at warp 9 there is simply no issue of feedback. and I do that regularly. big, powerful, full frequency music. which is 'why' the Herzan.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Mike.
It's just a consideration at this level of fine margins that can lead to potential major benefits.
Ron Resnick was in my room recently, and pretty much pleaded w me to relocate my tt from its likely position, on a Stacore, in effect 5" off the flr btwn my Zus w down firing subs, to 20' away behind my listening chair.
I can't deny his advice is 100% correct, it's just making it happen is not easy.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

Ron Resnick was in my room recently, and pretty much pleaded w me to relocate my tt from its likely position, on a Stacore, in effect 5" off the flr btwn my Zus w down firing subs, to 20' away behind my listening chair.
I can't deny his advice is 100% correct, it's just making it happen is not easy.

I think you are very lucky, Marc. You have two location options for putting your turntable behind a wall of some kind. Very few audiophiles have any option for locating the turntable behind a wall of some kind.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm on it Ron, but as I said, the physics of running long RCAs is not favourable.
If I can get unbalanced interconnects for my Straingauge "phono" over these lengths, I'll really consider relocating tt.