I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

[spiritofmusic]

I seem to be the go-to guy for Stacore referral, but isn’t there another option? Ie Stacore passive isolation under the AS-2000? And my Advanced is helping propel my tt to new heights.

 

[rockitman]

I seem to be the go-to guy for Stacore referral, but isn’t there another option? Ie Stacore passive isolation under the AS-2000?

Would rather have stiff passive Springs than air imo for this heavy beast.

 

[steve williams]

Would rather have stiff passive Springs than air imo for this heavy beast.

why springs at all if they are passive? Is there a purpose to a spring if it is passive? I guess I am really asking that why not the option David is having built. I heard the original AS at his house sitting on a heavy commercial grade stand. No muss. No fuss. IMHO it sounded amazing and I commented that I preferred the sound to my AF1 at which point one of you owners asked how is that possible? Now comes David's AS 2000 which is a totally different beast but still built around the American Sound. What is interesting about this threads that there are buyers that have gone in 3 different directions with yet a 4th by David who is having a stand built fashioned around what he uses himself. It's a terrific experiment

 

[steve williams]

Would rather have stiff passive Springs than air imo for this heavy beast.

totally agree. I believe that the design of a turntable will dictate what works best as a shelf; active, passive etc

I agree with Christian's finding's that the Herzan was contraindicated with the use of the AF1 because of the air suspension. As to something that weighs over 500 lbs I am not surprised with what Christian and David discovered wrt active

 

[Tango]

What is interesting about this threads that there are buyers that have gone in 3 different directions with yet a 4th by David who is having a stand built fashioned around what he uses himself. It's a terrific experiment

Boys just want to have fun my dear Doc . You ever hear a boy saying to a girl "you are too good for me" when breaking up? Things that make perfect sense sometime are not adventurous.

David's rack can always be the last resort to the naughty boys.

Have a Happy Holidays.
Tang

 

[PeterA]

Would rather have stiff passive Springs than air imo for this heavy beast.

On what do you base this Christian? Is it the perceived hassle of dealing with air suspension or perhaps the extreme weight of the turntable causing long term issues with maintenance of the air bladders? I wonder what Jarek thinks about this?

And what are your and David's thoughts about passive springs versus a plain rigid steel table? Or what about some constrained layer top plate on a rigid table? Perhaps as David has found, the air suspension for the platter combined with the massive base/plinth and armboard, the table is effectively immune to environmental vibrations.

Besides David's own experience at home and now your experiment with active and passive springs, are there any other data points available for such a massive, unsuspended turntable? A.J. Conti used passive isolation in his Work of Art table, and the German designer of the new extremely massive Apolyte? table seems to use some form of passive isolation. I would not be concerned about floor borne vibrations reaching the AS2000 platter because it is air suspended, but the motor controller and the armboard may be susceptible, despite their mass.

It seems that the AS2000 superb sonics are the result of three things: extreme speed accuracy and consistency, the platter's mass and air bearing and resulting isolation, and the system's mass effectively attenuating resonances. Learning that different support structures effect the sound seems to imply that the system's ability to effectively attenuate resonances reaching the stylus is the sensitive area of the design and somewhat susceptible to outside influences.

 

[ddk]

IME any kind I’d active isolation is counter intuitive to the operation of turntables, in effect one introduces a counter force against the natural operation of the record player continuously punching back at the spinning platter. In the case of the AS-2000 you only need a solid heavy duty steady platform that does nothing more, you have no idea what a 600lb turntable machined to exceptional tolerance with ripple free pneumatics means until you see it in action and hear the solid 3D sound. Just to give an idea here we were testing the design of the pneumatic system, the AS-2000 was on a regular workbench in the middle of the factory floor with heavy machinery, you want to talk about vibration ? Watch that micrometer not move even 1/1000 of an inch, do you believe some footsteps in a domestic environment is going to phase it?

david

On what do you base this Christian? Is it the perceived hassle of dealing with air suspension or perhaps the extreme weight of the turntable causing long term issues with maintenance of the air bladders? I wonder what Jarek thinks about this?

And what are your and David's thoughts about passive springs versus a plain rigid steel table? Or what about some constrained layer top plate on a rigid table? Perhaps as David has found, the air suspension for the platter combined with the massive base/plinth and armboard, the table is effectively immune to environmental vibrations.

Besides David's own experience at home and now your experiment with active and passive springs, are there any other data points available for such a massive, unsuspended turntable? A.J. Conti used passive isolation in his Work of Art table, and the German designer of the new extremely massive Apolyte? table seems to use some form of passive isolation. I would not be concerned about floor borne vibrations reaching the AS2000 platter because it is air suspended, but the motor controller and the armboard may be susceptible, despite their mass.

It seems that the AS2000 superb sonics are the result of three things: extreme speed accuracy and consistency, the platter's mass and air bearing and resulting isolation, and the system's mass effectively attenuating resonances. Learning that different support structures effect the sound seems to imply that the system's ability to effectively attenuate resonances reaching the stylus is the sensitive area of the design and somewhat susceptible to outside influences.

 

[steve williams]

David
What you says just makes common sense to me at least.

 

[pcosta]

IME any kind I’d active isolation is counter intuitive to the operation of turntables, in effect one introduces a counter force against the natural operation of the record player continuously punching back at the spinning platter. In the case of the AS-2000 you only need a solid heavy duty steady platform that does nothing more, you have no idea what a 600lb turntable machined to exceptional tolerance with ripple free pneumatics means until you see it in action and hear the solid 3D sound. Just to give an idea here we were testing the design of the pneumatic system, the AS-2000 was on a regular workbench in the middle of the factory floor with heavy machinery, you want to talk about vibration ? Watch that micrometer not move even 1/1000 of an inch, do you believe some footsteps in a domestic environment is going to phase it?

david

I love seeing the proof of exceptional machining. Good video to show.

 

[PeterA]

IME any kind I’d active isolation is counter intuitive to the operation of turntables, in effect one introduces a counter force against the natural operation of the record player continuously punching back at the spinning platter. In the case of the AS-2000 you only need a solid heavy duty steady platform that does nothing more, you have no idea what a 600lb turntable machined to exceptional tolerance with ripple free pneumatics means until you see it in action and hear the solid 3D sound. Just to give an idea here we were testing the design of the pneumatic system, the AS-2000 was on a regular workbench in the middle of the factory floor with heavy machinery, you want to talk about vibration ? Watch that micrometer not move even 1/1000 of an inch, do you believe some footsteps in a domestic environment is going to phase it?

david

That is very impressive, as I would expect. but I am not sure that this test measures the things that effect the sound of the table. Do you think the micrometer would respond any differently if measuring Christian's table with the active isolation engaged? I would be surprised if it did. And if it did in fact respond differently, then that is basically saying that the active support has a greater effect on the stability of that platter than does the vibrations from that factory floor with all of its heavy machinery, which would be incredible and somewhat counterintuitive.

I don't think we will ever see it happen, but imagine two tables like Christian's each supporting some stand mounted two way speaker. Would we hear a difference with the active engaged? Imagine the counter movements of the active isolation responding to the cabinet vibrations.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I find David’s arguments against active isolation analogous to those against direct drive.
In effect, both are “hunt/seek and adjust”, both maybe introduce some jitter.

 

[ddk]

That is very impressive, as I would expect. but I am not sure that this test measures the things that effect the sound of the table. Do you think the micrometer would respond any differently if measuring Christian's table with the active isolation engaged? I would be surprised if it did. And if it did in fact respond differently, then that is basically saying that the active support has a greater effect on the stability of that platter than does the vibrations from that factory floor with all of its heavy machinery, which would be incredible and somewhat counterintuitive.

I don't think we will ever see it happen, but imagine two tables like Christian's each supporting some stand mounted two way speaker. Would we hear a difference with the active engaged? Imagine the counter movements of the active isolation responding to the cabinet vibrations.

What it proves is how true the platter and the quality of the entire system also that the turntable is already immune to a high amount of real world vibration as it is, what is it that want to fix here? Active means just that and by definition unstable and counterintuitive under a high mass design ie gravity based and you want to float it. Frankly I can’t comprehend the infatuation with these stupid for Audio devices, I’ve left most of these conversations alone to be diplomatic but I’m getting nauseated with the repetition and the circle jerk nonsense. There’s nothing to pontificate here just use common sense, the f’ing Herzan table is designed to dampen, ie suck the life out of your equipment through mechanical vibration what it was designed to do for its intended industry, is this really what you want under your Audio equipment? I highly recommend you stop by my place or Christian’s and hear what’s sonically possible and achieved for yourself and I promise you’ll immediately forget about all this irrelevance .

david

PS. We have far more knowledgeable people on the subject than me like Joe & Jarek on this forum. ask them. There’s a reason why they haven’t come up with active devices and gone out of their way with Audio specific designs.

Edit- To add, Chris’s Herzan stand works beautifully in passive mode and there’s nothing to change or improve upon here, everything works as it should!

 

[Tango]

I saw in Christian's picture a very small air hose. The AF1 has a bigger hose and way lighter platter than the AS.

Pardon my ignorance. Technicaly, dont you need a really high pressure of air pump to lift a really heavy platter? The air gap needed is only so small?

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[rockitman]

I saw in Christian's picture a very small air hose. The AF1 has a bigger hose and way lighter platter than the AS.

Pardon my ignorance. Technicaly, dont you need a really high pressure of air pump to lift a really heavy platter? The air gap needed is only so small?

Kind regards,
Tang

the AS2000 pump is only 2 PSI and practically dead silent... (quieter than my AF1) The tube is bigger than the air tubes on my standard AF1. You cannot feel any ripple in the air hose.

 

[ddk]

I saw in Christian's picture a very small air hose. The AF1 has a bigger hose and way lighter platter than the AS.

Pardon my ignorance. Technicaly, dont you need a really high pressure of air pump to lift a really heavy platter? The air gap needed is only so small?

Kind regards,
Tang

As Christian mentioned all these air floating designs work with 2-3 psi pressure what’s important is the airflow when picking pumps and how it’s delivered. The AS hose is thicker walled and non silicone so it won’t bend or kink easily but the internal diameter is about the same as the other tables just calculated for the pump we’re using.

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) It seems that the AS2000 superb sonics are the result of three things: extreme speed accuracy and consistency, the platter's mass and air bearing and resulting isolation, and the system's mass effectively attenuating resonances. Learning that different support structures effect the sound seems to imply that the system's ability to effectively attenuate resonances reaching the stylus is the sensitive area of the design and somewhat susceptible to outside influences.

Just to remember that the mechanical properties of extremely thin air gaps of large area and the usual air pressure isolating devices are completely different. IMHO the air bearing gives us a frictionless bearing, but no isolation, the platter is mechanically coupled to the plinth - and perhaps it is why it dislikes so much the active table! David, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[rockitman]

Based on the tach we are using to measure speed on the AS2000...there is a speed fluctuation of 1/1000th per revolution (up or down) of the platter. Rock solid !

 

[PeterA]

What it proves is how true the platter and the quality of the entire system also that the turntable is already immune to a high amount of real world vibration as it is, what is it that want to fix here? Active means just that and by definition unstable and counterintuitive under a high mass design ie gravity based and you want to float it. Frankly I can’t comprehend the infatuation with these stupid for Audio devices, I’ve left most of these conversations alone to be diplomatic but I’m getting nauseated with the repetition and the circle jerk nonsense. There’s nothing to pontificate here just use common sense, the f’ing Herzan table is designed to dampen, ie suck the life out of your equipment through mechanical vibration what it was designed to do for its intended industry, is this really what you want under your Audio equipment? I highly recommend you stop by my place or Christian’s and hear what’s sonically possible and achieved for yourself and I promise you’ll immediately forget about all this irrelevance .

david

PS. We have far more knowledgeable people on the subject than me like Joe & Jarek on this forum. ask them. There’s a reason why they haven’t come up with active devices and gone out of their way with Audio specific designs.

Edit- To add, Chris’s Herzan stand works beautifully in passive mode and there’s nothing to change or improve upon here, everything works as it should!

Thanks David for your candor. You have no argument from me. Remember, I use three passive Vibraplanes in my system and have not been tempted by active isolation for my turntable. My Vibraplanes are less sophisticated versions and of lesser quality than Jerek's Stacore platforms. The stand I use is extremely rigid and can support 450 lbs on the top shelf, though it is made of wood.

I'm glad to read that Christians table in passive mode works so well.

 

[PeterA]

What it proves is how true the platter and the quality of the entire system also that the turntable is already immune to a high amount of real world vibration as it is, what is it that want to fix here? Active means just that and by definition unstable and counterintuitive under a high mass design ie gravity based and you want to float it. Frankly I can’t comprehend the infatuation with these stupid for Audio devices, I’ve left most of these conversations alone to be diplomatic but I’m getting nauseated with the repetition and the circle jerk nonsense. There’s nothing to pontificate here just use common sense, the f’ing Herzan table is designed to dampen, ie suck the life out of your equipment through mechanical vibration what it was designed to do for its intended industry, is this really what you want under your Audio equipment? I highly recommend you stop by my place or Christian’s and hear what’s sonically possible and achieved for yourself and I promise you’ll immediately forget about all this irrelevance .

david

PS. We have far more knowledgeable people on the subject than me like Joe & Jarek on this forum. ask them. There’s a reason why they haven’t come up with active devices and gone out of their way with Audio specific designs.

Edit- To add, Chris’s Herzan stand works beautifully in passive mode and there’s nothing to change or improve upon here, everything works as it should!

Thanks David for your candor. You have no argument from me. Remember, I use three passive Vibraplanes in my system and have not been tempted by active isolation for my turntable. My Vibraplanes are less sophisticated versions and of lesser quality than Jerek's Stacore platforms. The stand I use is extremely rigid and can support 450 lbs on the top shelf, though it is made of wood.

I'm glad to read that Christians table in passive mode works so well.

 

[ddk]

Just to remember that the mechanical properties of extremely thin air gaps of large area and the usual air pressure isolating devices are completely different. IMHO the air bearing gives us a frictionless bearing, but no isolation, the platter is mechanically coupled to the plinth - and perhaps it is why it dislikes so much the active table! David, please correct me if I am wrong.

It has nothing to with bearing type. Think of it this way you have something moving and squirming under you turntable, how can that be a good thing. Then there’s the whole life like sound that everyone wants yet you go after it with the most effective dampening tool you found, what do you expect besides drowning the sound?

david