"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."
- Thread starter Gregadd
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I don’t believe this is accurate based on my experience. Several experts have told me that you don’t need first order to allow time alignment. If you talk to Wilson they believe time alignment is way more important than phase alignment. As I mentioned earlier, hearing phase and frequency response is a different neural pathway than time coherence. Human ears hear very small microsecond level timing differences well into old age. That’s good news for us audiophiles as that helps us hear a precision of instruments on the soundstage.
Thiel and Vandersteen have two major issues in using this approach:
1. It is based on an assumed distance and listener ear height. That creates a lack of precision in presentation.
2. Different amplifiers have different group delay characteristics. The Wilson ability to move the drivers can be uses to adjust for different amplifiers. Dave Wilson demonstrated this to me when he changed amplifiers on his WAMMs and had me move the micrometer wheel to the ideal position based on the amplifier used. Wilson even has charts for a wide selection of amplifiers. Nobody else I am aware of is taking it to this level of precision.
It’s pretty easy in practice. You only have to know the distance from the listening chair and the lilstener’s ear height. You find the intersection of the two on a nomograph chart in the manual and the manual tells you where the tweeter and midrange should be, the right step on the midrange “staircase”. Very straightforward.
Sorry, your "experts" are wrong...unless you want to use digital correction. With passive filters, you simply cannot have time alignment. where all sounds from all drivers reach your ears at the same time, without having a minimal phase design. It just doesn't work that way. Now, you can have phase coherence without time alignment (as Dynaudio did (don't know if they still do or not)). This can happen if you make 1st order xovers but then mount all the drivers on a flat baffle with the tweeter on top. Now Dynaudio did time align with the Consequence where they use 1st order xover and then mount the drivers inverted from normal (tweeter on the bottom, mids then woofer on top). This looks really weird but works for time alignment. I even designed a speaker like this where I put the woofer above the tweeter in a 2-way design to get them time aligned...of course I used a 1st order crossover.
The experts on this I trust are Richard Vandersteen and Jim Thiel (RIP), who knew that the way to do it was 1) 1st order xover and 2) sloped back baffle because you need the tweeter set back to match the acoustic center. Dynaudio also knew this and rather than slope the box back they inverted the driver order.
They just made an approximation...of course they could have made the speakers fully adjustable for whatever height etc. was necessary but they mostly designed to reasonable price points. It doesn't mean the approach was wrong...just that they didn't go whole hog.
Have you ever heard Thiel CS3.6? They were anything but imprecise in their presentation...perhaps one of the most precise passive speakers I have ever heard. Same for the Thiel CS3.7 where they improved the integration of the mid and tweeter by making them coaxial.
How is it that amps have different group delay characteristics? This would be at most microseconds unless the amp is severely bandwidth limited and there is large phase shift in the high frequencies...I can't think of a single high end SS amp that would have this issue. At most we are talking microseconds. I can perhaps understand that the back EMF from the speaker is wreaking havoc on the amplifier by pushing signal back through the feedback loop that most amps driving Wilsons would have.
But this is my point. You get less precision in soundstaging and other sound characteristics when you cannot adjust the drivers.
No, you can research it yourself. You will see that without digital or very long analog delay lines it can only be done passively with a 1st order crossover and then alignment of acoustic centers. You need minimal phase and group delay or the physical alignment doesn't work.
lol at talking points. Anyway with you probably using MoFo - Fi recordings that you advertised to audition these speakers you are not going to be able to assess the differences between them anyway. You might end up preferring the toneless, disjoint, multi tiny driver phase and time misaligned speaker with these records
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Most of my demo records are from Analogue Productions! And my digital demos are from the likes of Peter McGrath and David Chesky Audiophile Society recordings, David Solomon Qobuz playlists, and Yarlung Records. I really like the work that Joe Harley, Kevin Gray, and Impex team do as well. Ditto for Bernie Grundman and Chris Bellman.
I do have a fairly complete set of MFSL LPs and CDs going back to the train recordings they did in the late 70s. My view is that the recent MFSL album controversy was unfortunate but at DSD resolution they sound pretty good anyway, especially the One Steps.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
Im happy that they give good instructions but you are way off base when you are discussing set up particularly since you had someone to do it for you. Wilson speakers are constantly being discussed and the answer to anyone who doesnt like them for anything is the dreaded quote
"well they weren't set up properly"
Well they had 8-9 systems in Munich, they had their crew there, so why did most of them sound at best mediocre to poor? Couldnt they read the instructions?
I wasnt crazy about what I heard at Robert Harleys were they set up wrong there? They were set up by the experts. I wasnt the only one that felt that way ,but I am not going to name names. Roy Gregory talked about the set ups in Munich not the speakers but the results. Were allof them setup wrong under Wilson's own supervision.
You can't have it both ways sorry.
If they are so easy to set up then why the controversy?
As you have often said to me, trade show conditions can be tough. I have always heard the XVXs sound their best at a dealer such as what Larry Marcus has on demo at Paragon. They are truly musically engaging there.
At the end of the day, the best results are when they use the nomograph technology and WASP to set up for the listener's ear height. I was present at the XVX install at Robert Harley's house (that was my first business trip for Nextscreen) and they sounded fantastic in my opinion. Robert told me that with break-in and some amplifier upgrades and the Altaira grounding system that things had gotten much better still.
I can't speak to the sound at Munich. Some friends told me the Nagra room with Wilsons sounded great. Roy Gregory didn't like the sound but Robert Harley did. I wish I had been there as I love the Munich show but I just can't comment without hearing the setups myself.
And you never answered my question on the long-term loans thread....if you feel there is bias, are you going to not advertise in the audiophile press?
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said they were biased.
I did not accuse anyone of anything. I did say that his can open one to the appearance of influence or actual influence.
I get that you like Wilson speakers and that is your choice but you did not hear other speakers in that room so your experience is limited severely.
Perhaps you should closely read what I actually said.
Advertising has nothing to do with any of this other than to get my name and my business name in front of the audio public. You can read the publication and see whether Bending Wave USa runs adds
We will be at Capfest and Axpona, maybe in a new room this time you never know, but the Shadow does.Reviews are a whole different issue as for that only time will tell whether I feel the juice is worth the squeeze.
Its a very difficult and expensive process to get something reviewed.
I did go to Munich, and Axpona, and Capfest etc.
I do have cleints that have different Wilson and other speaker set ups. Many who have moved on
I do my own set ups and installs.
I do believe your focus is way to narrow.
Some friends told me the Nagra room with Wilsons sounded great. Roy Gregory didn't like the sound but Robert Harley did. I wish I had been there as I love the Munich show but I just can't comment without hearing the setups myself.
And as quoted above you are doing it again , usiong someone else opinion to reinforce yours but dismissing others without comment.
Which is it? or the others opinions what you believe, especially when they aliogn with yours or is it you havent heard so you don't comment.
Your on both sides of the fence there Lee.
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You are putting words in my mouth. I never said they were biased.
I did not accuse anyone of anything. I did say that his can open one to the appearance of influence or actual influence.
I get that you like Wilson speakers and that is your choice but you did not hear other speakers in that room so your experience is limited severely.
Perhaps you should closely read what I actually said.
Advertising has nothing to do with any of this other than to get my name and my business name in front of the audio public. You can read the publication and see whether Bending Wave USa runs adds
Reviews are a whole different issue as for that only time will tell whether I feel the juice is worth the squeeze.
Its a very difficult and expensive process to get something reviewed.
I did go to Munich, and Axpona, and Capfest etc.
I do have cleints that have different Wilson and other speaker set ups. Many who have moved on
I do my own set ups and installs.
I do believe your focus is way to narrow.
Some friends told me the Nagra room with Wilsons sounded great. Roy Gregory didn't like the sound but Robert Harley did. I wish I had been there as I love the Munich show but I just can't comment without hearing the setups myself.
And as quoted above you are doing it again , usiong someone else opinion to reinforce yours but dismissing others without comment.
Which is it? or the others opinions what you believe, especially when they aliogn with yours or is it you havent heard so you don't comment.
Your on both sides of the fence there Lee.
You definitely implied that reviewers would be biased by these long-term loans. For example you said this in two different posts in the Long-Term Loan thread,
"I guess its great that the few of you have purchased all your gear but this is sort of missing the big picture.
All the major players, at least here in the US, I dont know about overseas, have HUGE amounts of gear on long term loan, with no end in site.
That is the point that Ron was making and that the thread was about.
We are not talking about minor amounts. These are 7 figure plus loans. in some cases.
These are the main players at PF and TAS. I looked at Stereophile and for example JVS has a lot of stuff but I have no idea if he owns it. ( I doubt it) but I dont know.
THe point remains IMO that that much outstanding gear for that term can influence both indirectly and directly."
"Facten, I didnt take it like that but nonetheless all three options are flawed.
If someone bought something only means they liked it and may preclude them from being honest and open to something they didnt. I see this reaction all the time at shows and many of my industry friends see it as well.
Long term loans obviously can have the same result and may beexaserbated by the owner exerting pressure because of this "loan"."
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